[locusjag]

It is not illegal to work multiple jobs in certain countries. In the land of opportunities (the US), the rags-to-riches stories of many have involved them working multiple jobs. It is the ultimate sacrifice to do that, but people have and still do this kind of thing.

I've heard meanwhile that in India, under our labor laws, it is illegal. That's the only difference in my mind.

[Samurai]

Steve Wozniak was moonlighting for Apple while working for Hewlett Packard (HP). HP didn't care, otherwise we wouldn't have Apple company or any of the products Apple created.

[ValarMorghulis]

Originally Posted by Samurai

...Sorry, I don't understand. How can just few days of sick leave justify opposing multiple employers entirely. These days many companies combine CL and SL into just personal leaves...

The example was just to highlight the differences in the way law treats working citizens. Like many mentioned, many companies in the US or Europe do not care for multiple employments.
In Germany, one cannot send "warning letters" (a staple of Indian IT companies) for making a mistake or perform surveys that can highlight shortcomings in one's work. Or call up employees after work hours.

While I'm not in either camp in terms of multiple employments, I think the law of the land should be followed; be it employment, social media, entertainment etc.

[Theyota]

This thread is disproportionately tilted towards almost 100% WFH seekers. I do not see many arguments from folks who are against it, either because there aren’t many or they think it’s not worth to argue it here. I am one of those who does not support anything more than 20% WFH for majority of the jobs in my industry. I support limited WFH as a “perk/benefit” and not as a “right”.

I run a high tech manufacturing plant for an European manufacturing giant in our friendly northern neighbor. I am privileged to be responsible for a highly motivated team of over 400 white and blue collar colleagues comprised of engineers, technicians and line workers. Previously I had the good fortune of leading large teams in North America, Central Europe and Asia. So far I did not have working opportunity in India although I am 100% Indian. My industry is very similar to Automotive industry, more complex in some things and a lot simpler in many other things.

The premise for an employer providing a WFH perk is based on the assumption that there shall be no loss in productivity or compliance or availability of employees for reasonable spontaneous needs. But when employees start thinking in terms of afternoon naps (like someone in this thread), being able to take care of families or running errands, moonlighting in a second job, etc., the premise of WFH perk is thrown in the gutter from an employer or a shareholder’s perspective.

The Wipro issue of 300 employees caught moonlighting must be taken seriously. Most of large company employment terms require disclosure and approval for secondary employment. Bypassing this and moonlighting is borderline stealing. It is important for an employee to understand that an employer is not only paying for you to do certain tasks, but also for a certain minimum commitment of time. If you have a full time job, it means you won’t be able to have another full time job.

In first full year after the COVID lockdowns, many large firms had record breaking profits. The firms failed to understand or communicate to their staff this is only because of pent up demand and had nothing to do with any innovations or efforts from the firm. I would blame the boards as well for this as they wanted to take credit for record breaking results in front of the shareholders although it was just the circumstances that brought in the profits. As a result, employees at all levels believed that WFH had no negative impact on the business and everything ran perfectly or even better while staying at home. Most don’t want too see or talk about numerous projects, products, and innovations missing timelines in the last 2.5 years.

In my organization, a big part of my product development team and some manufacturing experts are located in other countries. Majority of them are mostly working from home to this day. To develop a product and industrialize it, it takes a lot of team work. Employees have to interact a lot, bring in ideas and solutions together, iterate and test in labs/production lines before a product can be made reality. What I see everyday is that my WFH part of the organization has mostly become “uncle good advice” advisors and are not anymore the hands-on solution contributors or problem solvers they used to be. Their hardcore technical competence is deteriorating by the day and are mostly spending time barely showing presence in online meetings listening to slides with “cliched” technological words. The WFH managers have become meeting organizers, report trackers or survival cheer leaders.

I have had a senior manager bringing in his toddler child into online meetings multiple times while he was on WFH. It is not because he had a family emergency. He thought it was cute while his home maker wife was out shopping and thought that he should take care of the child while he is at WFH. This is total lack of respect and annoyance for the rest of the team who are busting their ass to solve a problem when the child keeps disturbing (no fault of the child and I love kids) the discussions.
Let us also take the example of semiconductor and other material shortages in the last couple of years. I think WFH is also a contributor for this. It’s hard for someone like me who has spent his whole career in manufacturing to imagine why it takes so long to build capacities or optimize existing capacities when there are clear customer demands.

Recently a software update was necessary in my factory from our IT team in India. The software update needs half an hour of factory shutdown time if everything goes perfectly and extended period of shutdown if things get screwed up. The junior honcho in his WFH comfort zone whose responsibility it was to implement the change had asked my team members to provide him a slot on a weekday between 10 AM to 5 PM India time. This is a comical request for a person in manufacturing. We were not going to shutdown 150 million Euro factory so that this clown can enjoy his 0.5 hours of non standard hours. The standard operating procedure for all such changes is off shift hours or holidays. Personally, deep down, it hurt my pride a little bit, because I would like my country people also to be known as as flexible and ambitious as the people in the country where I work in. The colleagues where I work, including women (both white and blue collar) volunteer to sleep in factories for weeks during many COVID lockdowns to keep core processes running.

I have frequent talk about WFH with my immediate family member in India who leads a sales function in an electronic design solution firm whose key customers are DRDO agencies. According to him, the employees who are experienced or long term committed to the company come to office on most days beating the Bangalore traffic even though they are all free to choose where they want to work from. Some come in the afternoon and leave at midnight and others start at early morning and leave in the afternoon. They do this to overcome Bangalore traffic challenges and that is their level of commitment. It is only the newbies who are applying for jobs after COVID ask in the interviews if they would be allowed to WFH from day one even in a sales function. He is amused at how these guys imagine being able to sell a high tech bespoke design solution without learning the product or the technology he or she will be selling. It is only possible to learn and write a proposal for a customer if he learns the tech by spending time with his designers.


I want to end my argument by saying, employees who are pushing for majority WFH, especially the ones in technology, are primarily asking their employer to be more employee centric at the cost of being consumer centric. Consumer pays the bills and there has to be a balance between employee needs and consumer needs. India needs exponential increase in number of jobs to make progress. They only capital we have in India is manpower and nothing else. It is important that our youngsters are flexible and ambitious and go the extra mile to contribute in their own little way if not there are other people waiting in other countries to take that opportunity. On the positive side, I think the feelings in this thread represent a miniscule part of our workforce in India who are in Infotech industry who have the luxury of WFH.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Theyota

On the positive side, I think the feelings in this thread represent a miniscule part of our workforce in India who are in Infotech industry who have the luxury of WFH.

We went through this on this thread quite some time ago. I think it is a given that this thread has very narrow applicability in the overall labour and Indian context. Only for those jobs that can be done remote. I don't think manufacturing falls in that category.

(Just to give an analogy to try and explain what I mean - There are threads on ownership of 50-lakh SUVs too. Naturally those have even more exclusivity in the Indian context. The forum overall is that way (Internet access, posting in english.) Personally, I can't afford anything near a 50-lakh vehicle, but would it make sense to keep posting on that thread about how privileged people that can afford those are? Or will the thread be more useful for those who have purchased them already and to share information.)

[CNMaLin]

Originally Posted by am1m

Personally, I too am of the mindset that working for two companies at the same time when you are a full-time employee at one is not the right thing to do. But the question is how did Wipro find out that these employees were moonlighting? Would be interesting to know.

Do you take full-time employee to mean 24 hours or 8 hours working? If it is 8 hours working then the employer has no business what an employee does in the remaining 16 hours, as long as it isn't illegal or violates NDA.

[Theyota]

Originally Posted by am1m

I can't afford anything near a 50-lakh vehicle, but would it make sense to keep posting on that thread about how privileged people that can afford those are? Or will the thread be more useful for those who have purchased them already and to share information.)

Taking your analogy, my point is that if you own a 50 lakh vehicle, don’t expect everyone in your neighborhood adjust to your driving times to make it possible for you to fit your oversized vehicle or blame the municipality for not having a big enough street for you.

I do love big cars !

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Not all engineers moonlight because of money. Many of them moonlight because their day job is utterly boring, and far beneath their skills. Plenty of companies have the habit of hiring brilliant engineers and then put them into mundane work. Such folks brighten their evenings/nights by moonlighting on leading edge technology, to keep their skills strong.

Instead of moonlighting, why don't these employees just go freelancing and work with 5 or 10 companies at once? They get to be their own boss as well in the process.

I totally get it if they are freelancing or monetizing the pet projects( in a different field) they work on in the spare time. But just can't fathom being on the payroll of 2 companies who are competitors.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Theyota

Taking your analogy...don’t expect everyone in your neighborhood adjust..or blame the municipality for not having a big enough street for you.

Completely agree with you. Whether working remote or in the office, professionalism needs to be maintained.

A lot of the examples of less than ideal work behaviors that you gave in your previous post I think don't have anything to do with flaws in the remote working model (again, to reiterate for jobs that can be done effectively remote). I've seen similar behaviors in the office as well- slacking off, allowing personal commitments to intrude in the office. In fact I've found a lot of in-office company/HR sanctioned events causing more of a disturbance in the office than just someone bringing their child in to work (which also used to happen in office.) Most jobs in IT are like that, a lot of different work styles that don't necessarily work well for other industries, or even some job functions within IT (like sales or hi-tech manufacturing and design). Which is why it is possible to do those particular jobs remote (btw no one is even saying all those who don't want to work remote even at a job that allows it should be forced to!)

But I see your point, there is a marked attitude from the pro-remote work posts to treat the in-office mindset as dictatorial and outdated. Similarly there are posts that attempt to portray those who want to work remote (even at jobs that can be done remote without loss of productivity) as slackers or spoiled millennials (when the reasons could be as simple as not wanting to waste 3 hours a day in traffic getting to and from the IT park (refer the 'Rants on Bangalore traffic' thread!))

Does each thread have to be reduced to a "absolutely for vs absolutely against" (like most TV news?) Perhaps we could move on and share information on finding ways to navigate these new models of work.

Originally Posted by CNMaLin

Do you take full-time employee to mean 24 hours or 8 hours working?

My view is if I've signed a contract with a company as a full-time employee on their rolls, then I would not think it's correct to work on paid assignments for another company in the same industry. If I really wanted to do that I always have the option to be a freelancer (and have done that as well at two points in my career.)

[Gsynch]

Originally Posted by locusjag

I've heard meanwhile that in India, under our labor laws, it is illegal. That's the only difference in my mind.

The reason why WFH as a model is unsustainable in countries like India.

Enough people will abuse that privilege for companies to eventually get everyone back to office.
Doing another job after-hours is reasonable. But doing so for a competitor is and should be unacceptable.

[V.Narayan]

Does any one know if the employees WIPRO sacked were indulging in a little bit of moonlighting on the side or blatantly holding two jobs simultaneously. Holding two jobs simultaneously had become {still is} a major issue thanks to WFH. In one company I am associated with which has 15,000 employees over the pandemic period HR had to weed out 78 worthies who were literally holding two jobs simultaneously at various points in time during the pandemic. These folks give WFH a bad name to the detriment of sincere employees.

Though I'm from the old school and believe {rightly or wrongly} that our IT folks grumble too much, fact is some form of WFH in its many avatars has come to stay and if handled sensibly will be good for small nuclear families, career women, gig economy workers etc.

Theyota, thank you for your post number #469 and bringing up the point about the customer being the one paying the $$. A point I have tried to make with limited success on this thread. Some posts on this thread, though by no means all, remind me of the union folks I used to deal with at my Mumbai facility where the union leader forgets that his point of view is but one of several that makes the wheel go round. And if there is no customer = no business = no employment.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by Theyota

This thread is disproportionately tilted towards almost 100% WFH seekers. I do not see many arguments from folks who are against it, either because there aren’t many or they think it’s not worth to argue it here. I am one of those who does not support anything more than 20% WFH for majority of the jobs in my industry. I support limited WFH as a “perk/benefit” and not as a “right”.

True, but that is because the majority of the forum are IT employees.

Originally Posted by Theyota

I have had a senior manager bringing in his toddler child into online meetings multiple times while he was on WFH. It is not because he had a family emergency. He thought it was cute while his home maker wife was out shopping and thought that he should take care of the child while he is at WFH. This is total lack of respect and annoyance for the rest of the team who are busting their ass to solve a problem when the child keeps disturbing (no fault of the child and I love kids) the discussions.
Let us also take the example of semiconductor and other material shortages in the last couple of years. I think WFH is also a contributor for this. It’s hard for someone like me who has spent his whole career in manufacturing to imagine why it takes so long to build capacities or optimize existing capacities when there are clear customer demands.

This just means, your organization's HR has not been effective in enforcing the work-from-home etiquette. Such behaviors led to disciplinary actions and warnings even in the first week of covid lockdowns in our organization. So if this happens even after 2 years of WFH, there is something wrong with the organization's processes.

Originally Posted by Theyota

Recently a software update was necessary in my factory from our IT team in India. The software update needs half an hour of factory shutdown time if everything goes perfectly and extended period of shutdown if things get screwed up. The junior honcho in his WFH comfort zone whose responsibility it was to implement the change had asked my team members to provide him a slot on a weekday between 10 AM to 5 PM India time. This is a comical request for a person in manufacturing. We were not going to shutdown 150 million Euro factory so that this clown can enjoy his 0.5 hours of non standard hours. The standard operating procedure for all such changes is off shift hours or holidays. Personally, deep down, it hurt my pride a little bit, because I would like my country people also to be known as as flexible and ambitious as the people in the country where I work in. The colleagues where I work, including women (both white and blue collar) volunteer to sleep in factories for weeks during many COVID lockdowns to keep core processes running.

This has nothing to do with WFH. That employee would have done it whether it is WFH or WFO. Either there is an attitude issue, lack of training or a process issue. Indian IT would not have reached the stage it currently is if all employees made such requests.

Originally Posted by Theyota

I want to end my argument by saying, employees who are pushing for majority WFH, especially the ones in technology, are primarily asking their employer to be more employee centric at the cost of being consumer centric.

This is a great point and thanks for articulating it with such clarity. Ultimately, WFH is an employee benefit program and it can survive only if it does not affect customer success.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Theyota

Consumer pays the bills and there has to be a balance between employee needs and consumer needs.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

And if there is no customer = no business = no employment.

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

Ultimately, WFH is an employee benefit program and it can survive only if it does not affect customer success.

To the customer point I would like to say that the past 4 companies I worked at and including my present one, the customers purchase an end product and so they really don't care where the individual developers were when they were developing it. So while that might not be true in the case of the big 3 of Indian IT services (though it must be asked how they managed during the 2 years of covid-induced remote work) that employ a lot of IT workers, such companies and jobs do exist in significant numbers and probably will grow.

[Captain Slow]

Originally Posted by am1m

Completely agree with you. Whether working remote or in the office, professionalism needs to be maintained.

Very rightly said sir, but sadly that's not the case here - I had to let go of some juniors because they refused to come into the office and always found reasons to avoid work during WFH. (No power, No internet, Computer problems, headache, Not well, ) On asking this person to come back to the office this also was refused citing fear of (the virus of an unknown origin) at the same time this person will check into every pub, gym, and restaurant as these places are immune to (the virus of an unknown origin)

These people lack professionalism plain and simple as that. They treat work as a joke and feel that they are too good for what they do.

[abhi.modi05]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Does any one know if the employees WIPRO sacked were indulging in a little bit of moonlighting on the side or blatantly holding two jobs simultaneously.

I was in one of the sessions with the Chairman, CHRO where they confirmed that these employees were holding two jobs, simultaneously. The organization found out from PF statements, that entries were made from employers other than Wipro.