[am1m]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Hello Grandson

Yes, I am just old enough to remember one death at school, and the general fear that the disease inspired.

Haha, my apologies Thad, I know I'm certainly not thaaat much younger than you. And in spirit, from what I've seen in all your posts, you come across as a young, fresh soul!

But, as you said, polio was a terrible disease, cast a shadow over several generations and almost all older people in the family remember at least one friend, relative who was affected. That it became so much less of a concern to my generation was all down to the global vaccination effort.

So, while I certainly support any investigations into vaccines, their adverse reactions and their withdrawal if required, I think a general 'anti-vax' sentiment is a far more dangerous thing.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Haha, thank you

I love science, even though I am not involved, or even much educated in it. I always enjoy conversations with scientists, and have never yet met one with the sort of dogmatic attitude that some paint them as having.

It can be enlightening to present them with one's misapprehensions! For instance, nobody here would have missed the basics of cell division, at school. For me, that was 50-60 years ago. Obviously, done and dusted, as far as I knew.

I mentioned this to someone I know, and know to have been studying cell division, for most of his academic life. His response: "Actually, we hardly know very little about it!" Amazingly inspiring.

Science and allopathic medicine has given us many miracles, but it is true that there have been some duds too. And that includes drugs and vaccines.

--- there was a time when the whooping cough vaccine was actually dangerous.

--- the developers of one of Polio vaccines used an active virus. This was, mostly, not a problem. Unfortunately, it did not occur to them that, in some places in the world, people will go to one field to crap. Thus, a number of people caught polio from the virus excreted by others. This happened in India, so some here will know far more about it.

The Andrew Wakefield story was/is an absolute scandal, and even The Lancet was shown to be complicit in having very low standards of checking substantiation. There was no connection between measles vaccine and autism. And yet many still believe it, and I have heard that he is still profiting from that. It was exposed by a British newspaper reporter. One evening, a few years back, I read through the whole thing: fascinating.

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

The UK court case is about people dying in dozens due to AstraZeneca.

Wrong. The UK court case is by 75 claimants.

I am not denying the pain that these 75 people (and many others in the world) have undergone because of the blood clot issue, but just objectively stating facts.

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

Government or any other literature was deviod of the lethal 'side effects' of astrazeneca brand.

3 of the links, I provided are government authority links - WHO, GOI, Canada Health. All are from 2021.

Need more? Here are 2021 articles of the BBC quoting from UK Government's "Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation" of the risk of blood clots.

Meanwhile, the EU's medicines regulator says unusual blood clots should be listed as a possible very rare side effect of the AstraZeneca jab, but that the benefits outweighed the risks.

Regulators are continuously combing through the details of the rare clots that have occurred to work out how many might be caused by vaccination.

Assuming the worst - that they all are - we can do some ballpark calculations to get a sense of the risks.

Based on the figures announced on Wednesday by the UK medicines regulator, if 10 million imaginary people were given the AZ vaccine you might expect to see 40 of these clots - with about 10 clots having fatal consequences.

Ten deaths out of 10 million people vaccinated is a one-in-a-million chance.

That's roughly the same risk as being murdered in the next month or - if you get in a car and drive for 250 miles - the risk of you dying in a road accident on that journey.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

There is no evidence that the vaccine worked. Neither by preventing the disease, nor by reducing deaths. By the time the vaccines were administered the worst of Covid was over.

Several rather vociferous posts by you doubting the vaccine and the whole vaccination system. Two questions:-

(1) Did you stand by your principles and refuse to be vaccinated and face the world of covid19 with no vaccination?

(2) What would you as the man responsible for the safety of a national population have done instead? Would you have said to the nation that "there is a vaccine not fully tested but we are not going to use it, let the covid roar."

As a healthcare manager I ran covid wards in 3 of our hospitals through the 18 odd months. At that time the mayhem, mortality and sick patients flooding all around us would require a very brave person to stand by and say, hey we will be a part of the anti-vaxxer brigade and refuse to implement the one albeit imperfect tool we have while innocent people around us fall like flies. It would have helped if anti-vaxxers stepped up along with healthcare folks like me and did something then with risk of illness or death to themselves.

[Earthroamer]

Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis

I don't know how the mind works but there is ample evidence on how vaccines work and how covid-19 vaccines helped prevent deaths, infections, etc. If still not satisfied, talk to any reputed doctor, virologist or epidemiologist,


There is soooo much data covid-19 vaccines and their efficacy and how they prevented catastrophe that only a dedicated obliviousness can present such dissonance from facts.

Covid vaccines preventing infections and deaths is objectively wrong. The narrative of the vaccines efficacy from CDC was all nothing short of "moving goal posts"

Early days during the vaccines role out :

https://youtu.be/uKf8dVxOy0s?si=hVEQp37CUNYw4R_c

After vaccinated individuals testing positive :

https://youtu.be/aMmF9rdAXLc?si=_XCFXC6l_3KA2Fii

More deaths in vaccinated individuals than unvaxxed :

https://youtu.be/Jb2YMvfvm_M?si=A-Po7U2b1s_Vc0y3

Covid was harmful to individuals with co-morbidities who would have died with or without covid.

In CDC words

https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-wor...aNkym_L7PdJuu4


That is why the mortality of covid is unchanged pre vaccination (in 2020) era and post vaccination era. Vaccines were ineffective.

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Wrong. The UK court case is by 75 claimants.

You should read even more on the net. I should have instead written "dozens (if not thousands)". Urge you to be dispassionate with reading and data.

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

I am not denying the pain that these 75 people (and many others in the world) have undergone because of the blood clot issue, but just objectively stating facts.

There is no data that relates deaths after taking the vaccine to the usage of that vaccine. No causal relation so far. Has it been debunked? Not that too so far.

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

3 of the links, I provided are government authority links - WHO, GOI, Canada Health. All are from 2021.

Need more? Here are 2021 articles of the BBC quoting from UK Government's "Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation" of the risk of blood clots.

I read your links. You should too.
Here is the dictionary meaning of the word lethal: causing death; deadly; fatal.

On a side note: There is no conclusive evidence that 'some laboratory' in China was the reason for the outbreak. It naturally started in a market in Wuhan, that is established. As much badly as people generally wanted it to get over, China was being blamed in general by the masses for artificially leaking the virus. Something we'd never know.

[deathwalkr]

With all the sudden brouhaha regarding a type of vaccine and whether it caused more harm than good, I am scared to think how we will face the next inevitable pandemic :(

Pardon me if i am wrong, been a bit out of touch with reality due to an illness and just catching up on things, the issue is with one particular "brand" of vaccine?

[aadya]

"I was in the thick of things during the Covid pandemic. Warrior or not, I fought valiantly, carefully, and to the end. I handled non-Covid patients from day one. At the peak, I was handling about 80 outpatients and up to 150 inpatients,extrememy sick ones too. I have personally witnessed deaths of atleast 200,many less than 40years of age.
I have septuagenarian parents and used to visit them monthly, had a one-year-old at home, and visited them alternate weeks, only after I test negative. I did RT-PCR tests 39 times during those 2.5 years of the Covid era. I never tested positive even once. I tested positive in April 2023, almost when we had forgotten the pandemic. I made my will on the day I entered Covid ward for the first time.
All of us yearned for a vaccine, doubted it when it came. Doctors were the first takers of the vaccine, scared, thrilled, and relieved at the same moment. I tested my Covid IgG before vaccination and every alternate week after the vaccine. I had a small increase in antibodies after the first dose and a sharp rise after the second dose, equaling that of infected individuals.
So, I do not doubt the efficacy of the vaccine. I have seen at least three of my patients having cardiac events, one facing a neurological event, and my better half having a blood clot in the eye (with no risk factors), within days to weeks of vaccination. With all this knowledge, if I am given a choice again, I would not hesitate to take the vaccine. I do not want the face such grief and helplessness again in my life
Let naysayers live in the doubtful clouds they believe, I will live in this earth with the science I trust.

[Fuldagap]

There is nobody against science on this thread. The efficacy of astrazeneca was approx 77% as per popular govt sources. The other brands had much more, which is why people who were reading a lot before taking the vaccine were upset not getting the availability of certain brands and some crazy people like me avoided getting vaccinated altogether (apart from some other reasons).


The following are the major points here:

1. The potential lethality of astrazeneca was not mentioned or made public.
2. The insert was not available/accessible to common man.
3. The rare case side effect was not linked to potential deaths.
4. Heart related issues and deaths were rubbed aside having no relation to astrazeneca. No proper study done.
5. The 'report side effect' links present on our country's govt website was initially available but later retracted.
6. Following deaths 1-4 weeks after taking astrazeneca, many countries withdrew it completely.
7. Many have lost lives after taking the vaccine with no prior health issues. Many continue to live miserable lives (mostly heart problems) after taking the vaccine. A lot remains unexplained.
8. If it were made public beforehand that people with a history of blood clotting (to put it simply) are at huge risk of taking astrazeneca, would they still have or would they have gone for other vaccines? Did they have this info or option?

Covid killed a lot. The vaccines saved a lot.
But this discussion(uk case) is not about that. It is about astrazeneca. People mingle emotions with logic. Which is quite human afterall.

[dragonfire]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Several rather vociferous posts by you doubting the vaccine and the whole vaccination system.

Please don't make it personal. But if you must, please do read my posts before attacking me. I said in my initial post on the subject that I would have taken THIS vaccine even they had not armtwisted us to take it.

And I did not write anywhere that I doubt the whole vaccination system. I just said that I do not see any evidence even after 3 years that THIS vaccine works. We have seen several other vaccines that work on other diseases. Vaccines work against some viruses but with some they don't. Only after extensive trials we would know for sure that a vaccine works. Since the Covid vaccine was rushed they didn't have time to do proper trials. That was ALRIGHT given the circumstances. But soon it was proven that it does not prevent infections after we found that vaccinated people too were getting Covid. They could have graciously admitted that the effort failed. Instead they changed their tune and claimed that it would prevent deaths and severe Covid - a claim that cannot be verified because even before the vaccine 80% of all infections were reportedly either asymptomatic or mild. Then the Omicorn wave came and deaths became scarce. And guess what, the vaccine lobby was quick to claim credit. What a scam!

I am no vaccine doubter nor party to any right wing conspiracy against vaccines. I am not arguing against vaccines.

BUT THIS ONE DIDN'T WORK.

P E R I O D.

[neerajku]

Another one of those where we blame the cure and not the illness. Cure has an owner and illness has none. The percentage likelihood of clots is minuscule and many other vaccines may have far higher. Second it was always mentioned as a risk on their pamphlet. But we all look for sensational headlines, that is spicy and discussion worthy.

[Fuldagap]

I wish the dead people had a way to discuss here. Then it would not have been possible for the discussion to lose track and become a stage for showcasing mostly unnecessary personal experiences instead of staying put to the topic.
The so-called pro-science people here are not getting it that they are not the only pro-science people here and they are not the only ones who were 'out there' during covid.

Many people died after taking AstraZeneca. Because of AstraZeneca. Is it not serious enough a thing to discuss? The UK court case stands tall. I wish there were one in our country too. I know a lot many people who died or currently suffering due to Covishield.
Most have not even seen the vaccines let alone the pamphlets.

[SuperGirl_Dad]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

But soon it was proven that it does not prevent infections after we found that vaccinated people too were getting Covid.

Firstly - Please don't post in bold just to make a point. Please follow forum decorum.

Secondly - The above quoted part: Please read up on how vaccines work! They wont prevent infection, be it covid or measles or typhoid, etc. They keep the respective immune levels (antibodies) high in the body for the body to fight against the infection! If you expect a vaccinated person to never get the infection, then your expectancy of vaccines is totally and completely wrong .

[ringsoftime]

If it was not for the mandatory vaccine passports, and a mandated Work from Office, I would not have taken these vaccines. It is one thing to urge people to get the shot, especially the people who have immunity deficiencies. But mandating vaccinations, and the totalitarian lockdown, not just in India, was a an exercise in total control. Denmark might just be the exception here. I would not have thought people would label thus stand as anti vaxx or anti science. I just gave my newborn the 2nd dose of vaccines last week. These have been used for such a long time, is tested on entire generations. And it is not necessary. No proof of it is required. From a statistical viewpoint, we might not even need this. If Covid has given the governments anything, it is selecting a convenient version of science and make it the mandate. This whole fiasco is the antithesis of science.

[Small Bot]

My entire family took the vaccine shots, all three of them. Though I disremember which vaccine brand it was.

I think, science or no science, probability or not, we just wanted the best shot at survival for my family. So we all took the plunge.

My parents still suffer complications from those three dark years. I do not know if it was due to getting COVID twice, or due to taking the vaccines.

But given a chance to do it again, and given the state of mind that we were in at that time, I know we'd still opt for the vaccinations, even if they were only arrows fired in the dark. We were running on fear and hope, and a decent possibility of survival was all we could really get.

Do I feel somewhat betrayed by this Astra Zeneca news? Yes.
Would I have still taken the same vaccine back then, given the circumstances? Also, yes.