[Sankar]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Yes, I am aware that this has happened previously, including with the Cutter incident 65 years ago in the US. I said that this was why it does not make sense to just let anyone produce this vaccine.

Vaccine safety lapse is not a 65 year old subject that ended with cutter incident in USA. Last one in USA according to CDC was in 2013.

Or do you refer to the GPEI vaccinations in the recent past? Which had some vaccine safety related cases in India, Africa etc? Why can't the partners, including Mr.Gates, pony up for the safer IPV vaccines for the poorer countries also? Only IPV vaccines are allowed in USA since 2000. So when Mr.Gates know the IPV is safer why go ahead with the OPV, is it because they are doing it for free and becasue 3rd world life costs less.

The Global Polio Eradication Initiative is a public-private partnership led by national governments with six partners – the World Health Organization (WHO), Rotary International, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF), Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and Gavi, the vaccine alliance. Its goal is to eradicate polio worldwide.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...y-2051670.html

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/41280050.cms

https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...ain-in-vaccine

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by mooza

Just a suggestion to our dear Mods:

Please create a separate thread "Coronavirus Medical advice", as a lot of critically important posts with advice from Doctors are getting drowned out in the general discussions in this thread, which I assume was created for general discussions and debates.

Many thanks to all the Doctors in the forum for continuously providing crucial advice in these tough times

I disagree. Without the medical advice here, I'm not sure there's much scope left to share anything useful on this thread. I'd rather say it's time to restrict the scope of this thread to seeking/receiving medical advice and to share actual COVID experiences or info that others will find useful. The rest is just negative posts, political rants, fights and what not. I appreciate the difficulty our mods face in regulating this thread although.

--------------------------------------------------------

@All

I'm guilty of recently adding a post or two in this thread which didn't add value to anyone - au contraire, I inadvertently ended up being insensitive to people... I'm not afraid to own up when I'm wrong - I apologize. I'm also taking a break from the forum since I feel sheepish about how I conducted myself. Yes, I appreciate Ostriches for what they do with their heads in the sand, so shoot me!

Anyway, I am glad that we have qualified Doctors here who are helping members meaningfully. We need more of that if you ask me. Let's ask questions related to the COVID situation at hand. If any of our resident Doctors can find time to do so, let them reply. Or if any of us can add any value, let us do that. If we aren't adding value, maybe we shouldn't post anything here.

This is only one thread in the corner of a restricted forum. It cannot possibly matter to anyone no matter what happens here - right? Wrong. After I shared my daughter's horrid COVID MIS-C experience on this same thread, it added so much value to a number of members including to myself. Non-members also got to read and learn about MIS-C and a non-member actually told me excitedly all about my own thread once without knowing that that was me! Other members have sought and received advise from me for their own kids. Some members have kindly sought to help me out. And a kind doctor from this forum has been a positive force of change for my family by providing us guidance and advice, given our situation. That's how useful this thread can be for us all, potentially.

Of course, I am no one to tell anyone what to do but these are merely suggestions from me.

PS: When all of this is over, I'm all for throwing a grand Team-BHP party for Dr.Raja Saravanan, Dr.Vivek & Zen2001 (whatever the good doctor's real name is).

[SUPERSPORT]

Originally Posted by mooza

Just a suggestion to our dear Mods:

Please create a separate thread "Coronavirus Medical advice", as a lot of critically important posts with advice from Doctors are getting drowned out in the general discussions in this thread, which I assume was created for general discussions and debates.

Many thanks to all the Doctors in the forum for continuously providing crucial advice in these tough times

True. This will be my last post in this thread with respect to administration. I hope we all stay safe, the government wakes up, and we all survive through this pandemic without losing our dear and near ones.

One thing that I had noticed when I was infected was that proning was effective. Lying on my stomach made it easier for me to breathe, and in case of my brother, we even observed a slightly higher Sp02 reading on the oximeter.
So anyone who is positive, try lying on your stomach to feel better. I hope the doctors here can give more clarity as to why it helps. And once again thanks to all the docs on this forum for helping us out both online and offline.

[poloman]

Originally Posted by SUPERSPORT

What could've we done better? The situation as of now is so dire that we may have to reframe that question to what else could we've done more wrong.

There's no doubt India is a densely populated country and handling the pandemic isn't an easy task.

Despite being the vaccine producer for the world, a responsible government wouldn't have

1) Covishield is not developed by SII. It is bound by Astrazeneca for vaccine agreements. Do you have data how much vaccine was exported?
2) Which political party has not done a rally? Why blame only one person? What is your take on farmers protest going on for 7 months? If cases are low how are you going to behave? Can you predict future?
3) I agree Govt should not silence dissent or suppress facts. But why obsess on UP. What is the situation in Maharashtra? This whole second wave started from there. Politicians will always do PR stunts, remember New Zealand lady PM defeating Covid.


I am not defending the govt, but this deep hate for one person and cherry-picking of incidents I cannot accept.

[nandrive]

Only few states had election rallies not all. But farmer rallies were organised around the country. Western media reported 250 millions joined the protest. Now only one man and his party is blamed for organizing rallies. If he is wrong so does all. If someone wants to exploit the situation to further the agenda, all the best, we all know what the migrant workers did after they walked to Bihar.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by poloman

I am not defending the govt, but this deep hate for one person and cherry-picking of incidents I cannot accept.

Same with the International Media as well. Cherry picking has gone to such an extent that all my German colleagues here think that the entire country is in the situation what Delhi has been. I sincerely hope that day never comes. As much as I want to keep politics out of this thread, I feel that the opposition in our country always opposes the ruling party as their single motto. Earlier lockdowns were opposed, now not doing lockdown was opposed. Earlier the proposal to do online campaigning for polls were opposed, and now we blame political rallies were opposed. Can we expect one day when all these parties, ruling or opposing will come together, admit everyone screwed up and work together at least till the pandemic is over or we overcome it? If one party did rally against covid norms, what stopped another party from taking a stand and not doing it? This is the problem. I would have had deep respect for any party who actually did this, but looks like everyone are selfish and want their gains out of every situation. Hence no party would garner my respect, neither would I criticize a single one. People should do something that would make them stand out of the crowd and gain their share of respect and votes. Run with the crowd and then when there is a stampede blame someone there for the misery while being a part of it. Instead if someone just stepped out, they would have had a better chance at it.

[drrajasaravanan]

Originally Posted by SUPERSPORT

One thing that I had noticed when I was infected was that proning was effective. Lying on my stomach made it easier for me to breathe, and in case of my brother, we even observed a slightly higher Sp02 reading on the oximeter.
So anyone who is positive, try lying on your stomach to feel better. I hope the doctors here can give more clarity as to why it helps. And once again thanks to all the docs on this forum for helping us out both online and offline.

Hi,
There are pros and cons and quite a lot of discussion around prone position. To simplify lying on your belly causes redistribution of blood to better part of the lung increasing your oxygen level and helps to clear the lungs. It is beneficial in mild and moderate disease to delay more invasive procedures and ease the burden on medical staff. In severe cases it may help in selected cases. By all means if you are feeling better quality in your efforts to breath please prone yourself.
In my ICU I am sitting over a patient who is maintaining most of the 24H being prone on HFNO. He is still not out of the woods and I am hoping he will.

[gk01]

It's a common fallacy to try and find one single cause to any problem. Most of the times, there are multiple factors. With COVID-19, given how much is still unknown after nearly a year - I think it is a futile chase behind a single cause behind the second wave and this complete collapse.

Sure, all of
1) Unpreparedness on the behalf of Administration
2) Lackdasical attitude from people around COVID appropriate practices
3) Large congregations - political, personal and even around vaccination centres (barely seen anyone wear a mask leave alone a proper one and properly)
.. would have all compounded the spread.

But, shouldn't we use all our resources (heads and everything else) in helping each other in these troubled times instead of debating endlessly?

Here's my bit towards changing the course of this thread from endless debates that don't change the situation one bit to something slightly more useful:

Dashboard listing ICU Beds, O2 etc per state:
https://external.sprinklr.com/insigh...d76f493&home=1

BLR Hospital bed tracking:
https://bbmpgov.com/chbms/

Delhi Hospital bed tracking:
https://coronabeds.jantasamvad.org/

Plasma Donors:
http://plasmadonor.in/

http://needplasma.in/

https://plasmaline.in/

I'm sorry if I sound harsh. I landed on this thread after searching a lot to help a colleague find a ICU bed and all I found was debates and whatboutery. Sure, if that's the intention here please change the title of the thread to "The Great Big Coranavirus Debate".

PS: With All due respect to the Doctors and others who are really helping with useful info here - Thank you!

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by SUPERSPORT

What offline.

I think it was Jan or Feb sometime, that it was proclaimed that India was a shining example of beating the virus.
Someone pointed out on twitter, if the vaccination certificate can carry a picture, so should the death certificate.

[jpcoolguy]

Originally Posted by mayankk

I think it was Jan or Feb sometime, that it was proclaimed that India was a shining example of beating the virus.
Someone pointed out on twitter, if the vaccination certificate can carry a picture, so should the death certificate.

That's even before that - even the western media proclaimed India has successfully 'defeated' the diesease.

BBC: Coronavirus: Are Indians more immune to Covid-19?

This article even mentioned that vaccination is 'unethical' to the recovered patients.
Majority Indians have natural immunity. Vaccinating entire population can cause great harm

Indians have in-built immunity

Study finds poor hygiene standards have made Indians more immune to COVID-19

Now, I am wondering where does all these 'immunity' go?

[am1m]

Guys, the strengths, USP, whatever of a forum like this are the personal experiences of other members that we get to hear about and on this particular thread, the posts by 4-5 qualified doctors (who are actually working with covid patients) and taking time out of their crazy schedules to post information here.

So if we just keep throwing links to media reports (yes, I've done that myself on this thread!) and stuff we get on whatsapp (the modern equivalent of 'heard from a friend of a friend') at each other just to prove a point or position we have taken (usually political), we risk missing out on these 2 unique and valuable things.

[Zen2001]

Originally Posted by mooza

Just a suggestion to our dear Mods:
Please create a separate thread "Coronavirus Medical advice"
Many thanks to all the Doctors in the forum for continuously providing crucial advice in these tough times

Just a word of caution here - to those asking and those giving out personal medical advice : All said and done, the treating doctor (who has examined the patient physically/virtually) is in the best position to advise - whether the advice turns out to be correct or not is secondary; at least there is an explicit/documented doctor-patient relationship, (in case of allegations of negligence), and furthermore, having the same person following up gives a better judgement for timely escalation of treatment (hospitalisation, etc), which is risky to recommend (or withhold) on such a forum. Not to mention that advice meant for a particular person can be construed as advice for all and wrongly adopted by others as well. The last thing we want is a full blown blame game here. It just takes one thing to go wrong based on one point of what someone advised.
General advice, clearing of doubts/myths, general discussions on clinical aspects, treatment trends/guidelines however can be discussed, provided these are backed by relevant (medical sources) and not by social media/news media/political evidence.
It may be safer for those who wish to get treatment advise to do the same privately (though PM) and only discuss the general aspects in the main thread.

Originally Posted by ecenandu

The crux is, we need to follow the data and make sure that we don't overwhelm the healthcare facilities. Looks like Kerala is doing well in that regard.

Exactly. What you've posted just emphasizes the importance of having all those various data parameters, to enable corresponding changes in strategies/infrastructure rather than falling back on media and political sensationalism.

Originally Posted by Sankar

Vaccine safety lapse is not a 65 year old subject that ended with cutter incident in USA. Last one in USA according to CDC was in 2013.
Or do you refer to the GPEI vaccinations in the recent past? Which had some vaccine safety related cases in India, Africa etc?
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...y-2051670.html
https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...ain-in-vaccine

How is it that if the news does not cater to your alignment becomes a conspiracy theory? My posts are about as useful as your posts and many other posts in this thread (Rephrasing it - I don't find your posts any more useful than adding to the general noise on this thread). And on that terrible disappointment...

Perhaps, sometimes, just agree to disagree. Especially when neither of the parties is the "subject matter expert". If two qualified parties are debating contrary ideas, at least they have the intellectual rights to do so and it may have a beneficial outcome for others too.

Regarding vaccine manufacturing safety standards, there is no debate that simply procuring a formula, raw materials and license does not "grant" any manufacturer the safety that MUST go along. That is why biologicals are such a niche market. One lapse and all hell could break loose in millions in no time. There is enough proof of this.

Originally Posted by locusjag

I'd rather say it's time to restrict the scope of this thread to seeking/receiving medical advice and to share actual COVID experiences or info that others will find useful.
Let's ask questions related to the COVID situation at hand. If any of our resident Doctors can find time to do so, let them reply.
PS: When all of this is over, I'm all for throwing a grand Team-BHP party for Dr.Raja Saravanan, Dr.Vivek & Zen2001 (whatever the good doctor's real name is).

I've already discussed in the first reply the possible pitfalls (for both parties) of seeking personal clinical advise on a non medical forum. General experiences can be shared, and so can the questions - this may help all. About the party, we're just doing our job and sharing what we've learnt in practice - appreciate your recognition though.

Originally Posted by SUPERSPORT

1. Exported so much vaccines to other countries before inoculating our own population.

2. A responsible leader wouldn't have thrown caution to the wind and organised huge rallies, throw away the mask for the same, indirectly influencing the crowds to follow the same.

3. There's never been a press conference, other than the one-way radio talk where the one speaks what he wants to. Instead we have the voice of the common man being silenced for speaking the truth.

4. That includes politicians posing with decorated Oxygen trucks and corpse vehicles while patients are gasping for breath.

5. We had a year to prepare for this unlike other nations

6. Created a false sense of victory over Covid whenever the leaders got a chance, .

Yes fighting Covid 19 in a country like ours is a difficult job, but we had a year, & we screwed up big time. At least agree to that, .
So anyone who is positive, try lying on your stomach to feel better. I hope the doctors here can give more clarity as to why it helps. And once again thanks to all the docs on this forum for helping us out both online and offline.

On 1,2,3,4,5,6 - the ruling government (centre and state) have screwed up completely. They can't get away by blaming it all on the scale of our population - population didn't explode just last year! Where's the planning and foresight? I never heard any of them blaming the citizens for giving them millions of votes! So, they ARE responsible for the lives of these millions, period.

About prone ventilation, or lungs are bigger and stretch lower down towards the back as compared to the front where the liver, stomach, spleen, also occupy some area of the lower ribcage. Hence, ventilation of the back side of the lungs achieves a better VP (ventilation-perfusion) ratio resulting in better oxygen saturation. There's also the added weight of the heart on the lungs which they need to overcome to expand when lying supine (on the back). Secondly, covid pneumoniitis causes lung compliance (elasticity) to reduce - they become stiffer and difficult to inflate, especially at the bases which lie posteriorly (at the back). When one lies prone (on the stomach) this excess weight of the already stiff lungs (& the heart) gets "lifted off" of the posterior zones (at the back) which offer more alveoli to open up for better oxygenation, resulting in improved SpO2.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Zen2001

Perhaps, sometimes, just agree to disagree. Especially when neither of the parties is the "subject matter expert". If two qualified parties are debating contrary ideas, at least they have the intellectual rights to do so and it may have a beneficial outcome for others too.

Regarding vaccine manufacturing safety standards, there is no debate that simply procuring a formula, raw materials and license does not "grant" any manufacturer the safety that MUST go along. That is why biologicals are such a niche market. One lapse and all hell could break loose in millions in no time. There is enough proof of this.

You may feel free to disagree but medical doctors (unless into that side of medical research) are also not subject matter experts on vaccine development or manufacturing.

[deathwalkr]

Maybe it's a reflection of the negativity in me with all that's happening around us, but i feel this thread is heating up.

Hope we can maintain the civility that's been evident.

[poloman]

I have raised this few pages back. The biggest segregation of people currently happening is at vaccination centers.

Now no one seems to care. Afterwards this will be touted as another major failure.
These pics should startle you. So many senior citizens crowding these centers for hours.
https://www.indiatoday.in/coronaviru...1-2021-04-28/2

If you have lockdown in your city and fully isolated at home. Is it not safe not to rush for vaccine under such conditions?