[Zen2001]

The Indian Express: Pune: Schools shut till February 28; Revising academic calendars challenge for some, others say back-up plans ready.
https://indianexpress.com/article/ci...ready-7198886/

This is the result of haphazard planning and knee jerk reactions of a clueless administration. Do they not think about the psychological impact that this uncertainty had on the minds of students in their crucial years of STD 9 to 12, and colleges? Perhaps, they should get some counseling themselves. Teachers, students, parents - are all frustrated by now. Would it have made such a big difference if schools world have remained online for 2 more months?
We all have seen how much the govt cares about healthcare - now it's time to see how much they care about the future generation.

[rdst_1]

Originally Posted by Zen2001

No, this draconian reaction was akin to that of a headless chicken initially, but later on cunningly used to suppress people's activities as and when the govt thought it suitable. Yes, the people are also to blame.

This is exactly what I said. Later on, the govt here realized that they can use the excuse of CoVID to pass whatever illogical rules they wanted and yes we people did allow that. But don't you think, that it is completely natural for people to be afraid of a pandemic like this, in the beginning.
If you've watched the movie 'V for Vendetta', it shows the same modus-operandi of a govt engineering a disease and then using that to manipulate, control and ultimately enslave people and how the media played a big role in it.

I agree with almost everything you have said, but you have to realize that common man can't understand the details and intricacies as you can and I am thankful that you are at least trying to educate us. I wish people in the actual positions of power had a little more integrity and courage to say these things out loud, but I can also understand their position given the present circumstances of our country where anyone can be labelled as 'anti-national' at the drop of the hat.

[atnyia]

Originally Posted by Zen2001

Do you know that SARS, MERS and Ebola are much more lethal? Count for blessings is you get Covid instead, I'll say!

Evidently, you have got the whole point in reverse. I am trying to say that scale matters. Severe diseases on a small scale don't necessarily cause a big problem on the large scale. Conversely, what could be relatively harmless on a small scale can cause big problems on a larger scale. Previously, I made the same point taking an example of DDoS. I am making a similar point with Polio as well. But, you are turning it into something that I don't intend to say or mean.

As you and doc Vivek already said - it is no longer a health emergency, not at least in India, I agree on that for several months, since the much-dreaded second wave never arrived in Delhi in November. I have started going out, eating out in not-so-crowded places. So, yeah, I don't agree with returning lockdowns and night curfews in some places.

I might want to discuss more of what I think on this but it depends. The emotions on this thread are as high as they were on a thread of the KA LTT rule few years back. This is the second time you have quoted me in the exact opposite sense of what I am saying. I don't have interest* in any more of it.

* the reason for a brief reply, not point by point lengthy arguments.

[PearlJam]

Originally Posted by atnyia

Evidently, you have got the whole point in reverse. I am trying to say that scale matters. Severe diseases on a small scale don't necessarily cause a big problem on the large scale. Conversely, what could be relatively harmless on a small scale can cause big problems on a larger scale. Previously, I made the same point taking an example of DDoS. I am making a similar point with Polio as well.

I think @Zen2001 has already answered this earlier:

Our healthcare system suffered what you refer to as DDOS, simply because most of those who utilised hospital beds (in private, and initially even govt hospitals) had mild disease and could well have saved those resources for those who were more severe. This group comprised nearly 80% of patients in private hospitals. Once admitted, a bed with all resources was blocked for 2 weeks. I have personally received requests from Covid positive mild/asymptomatic cases to use my hospital connections to get them entry into hospitals - overtly stating that "money is no issue". The govt and media fuelled hypochondria was responsible for this - who wants a bed now?

[atnyia]

Originally Posted by PearlJam

I think @Zen2001 has already answered this earlier:

As you bring this point, the question is to you. Can you please tell me why there was a widespread oxygen shortage both in KA and specifically in MH (widely reported in local media) if everything was a false pretense of the disease?

Besides, do you want to have another look at what I have quoted? In my post I did describe why SARS or MERS or Ebola didn't become pandemic level problems despite severe diseases, he quoted me implying the exact opposite meaning of it. So, I don't think he deserves any more explanations (already mentioned about lack of interest).

[PearlJam]

Originally Posted by atnyia

As you bring this point, the question is to you. Can you please tell me why there was a widespread oxygen shortage both in KA and specifically in MH (widely reported in local media) if everything was a false pretense of the disease?

This was reported in the media (even in print) long ago. See https://indianexpress.com/article/in...ssues-6606832/

Summary:

1. Some hospitals mismanaged inventories and hoarded oxygen, resulting in a shortage for others
2. States that manufacture and export oxygen to other states hoarded them as a panic knee jerk reaction
3. Overestimating the length of time that patients are required to be on oxygen

The doctors can confirm whether this is true at ground level, since we already know that media sensationalizes most things, and we don't want the above to be also called "sensational"!

[atnyia]

Originally Posted by PearlJam

This was reported in the media (even in print) long ago. See https://indianexpress.com/article/in...ssues-6606832/

Summary:

1. Some hospitals mismanaged inventories and hoarded oxygen, resulting in a shortage for others
2. States that manufacture and export oxygen to other states hoarded them as a panic knee jerk reaction
3. Overestimating the length of time that patients are required to be on oxygen

The doctors can confirm whether this is true at ground level, since we already know that media sensationalizes most things, and we don't want the above to be also called "sensational"!

The article also talks about a large base. Where did it come from? 6% of active patients requiring oxygen support. Is this normal? What if there were no social distancing or masks? How many more patients would be at the hospitals?

Despite all that social distancing, lockdowns, oxygen consumption at hospitals was 4 times than normal.

How is this false pretense of supposedly healthy people occupying beds?

If this isn't a potential DDoS, then what is?

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by atnyia

The article also talks about a large base. Where did it come from? 6% of active patients requiring oxygen support. Is this normal? What if there were no social distancing or masks? How many more patients would be at the hospitals?

Despite all that social distancing, lockdowns, oxygen consumption at hospitals was 4 times than normal.

How is this false pretense of supposedly healthy people occupying beds?

If this isn't a potential DDoS, then what is?

Dont want to get into these discussions anymore. But just to add to your post, there were no hand sanitizers, no masks etc. initially. We also had huge number of people getting impacted in developed countries, their hospitals running out of beds, people dying, no one allowed to participate in last rites.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Zen2001

My statements reflect what epidemiological statistics (what the MOHFW does not release) show. Talk to a few epidemiologists to get the complete picture (of undetected, asymptomatic, negligible infections).

Originally Posted by vivek95

I have been working in Covid ICU since 11 months now...

Just logged in to thank you doctors again for your posts. Several of us are following what you post here, and are grateful for your views based on your actual, practical medical background in an Indian context.

Some people will still continue to argue and debate with actual doctors who are seeing covid patients, based on google/whatsapp conferred medical degrees ; that is just the nature of the online medium, but please do continue with your medical fact-based posts. They are invaluable.

[PearlJam]

Originally Posted by am1m

Just logged in to thank you doctors again for your posts. Several of us are following what you post here, and are grateful for your views based on your actual, practical medical background in an Indian context.

I second that wholeheartedly! The qualified doctors' first hand myth-debunking, advice, big picture, hard data, experience, and reports on Covid-19 from ground zero are (and have been) invaluable. I would give that a lot of weightage (especially here on team-bhp) any day, compared to what-about and what-if random messages of doom, or one-off instances bordering on fake news.

Please keep posting

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by am1m

Just logged in to thank you doctors again for your posts. Several of us are following what you post here, and are grateful for your views based on your actual, practical medical background in an Indian context.

Some people will still continue to argue and debate with actual doctors who are seeing covid patients, based on google/whatsapp conferred medical degrees ; that is just the nature of the online medium, but please do continue with your medical fact-based posts. They are invaluable.

+1. Glad to have actual experts on the ground, who can spare time to share knowledge with us.

[proton]

Originally Posted by atnyia

Evidently, you have got the whole point in reverse. I am trying to say that scale matters. Severe diseases on a small scale don't necessarily cause a big problem on the large scale. Conversely, what could be relatively harmless on a small scale can cause big problems on a larger scale. Previously, I made the same point taking an example of DDoS. I am making a similar point with Polio as well. But, you are turning it into something that I don't intend to say or mean.
...
This is the second time you have quoted me in the exact opposite sense of what I am saying. I don't have interest* in any more of it.

I made a post stating I would refuse to take remdesivir if I were to go down with Covid-19.

In this post:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ml#post4919301 (The Coronavirus Thread)

he made it seem like I advised the opposite.

Quote
This trial has largely proven the ineffectiveness of Remdesivir (across 70 participant countries). I don't know what more evidence you are looking for.

I gave up trying to communicate with him.

[Zen2001]

Originally Posted by rdst_1

Please see again what I have written. I said, that India did have a lower mortality than other places, but when the decision for lockdown was taken, we were basing our decisions on what we were seeing happening around the world, so it was not unnatural to be scared of the disease.
As for people with mild cases hogging beds unnecessarily, you can't ignore the fact that many people can't isolate themselves at their homes properly. I live with my mother who is a diabetic and above 60. So if I were to contract CoVID, I would make sure I am at a hospital because there is no one else to take care of me if things were to go south and I don't want to expose my Mom. You must remember that back in March-May, we were getting reports from all over the world that this disease has the tendency to suddenly complicate after 7-10 days and that also played a major part in people wanting to be in a hospital rather than quarantine at home, even in mild cases.
I don't believe that this was overhyped enough in India. Do you see people taking enough precautions, wearing masks and following social distancing?
They still haven't learned anything. I have taken care of 2 TB patients and in both cases, I was fine because we were following proper protocols at home. Don't you think it would have been better for India, if people learnt to take communicable diseases more seriously. But unfortunately, even that isn't going to happen. Another thing that didn't happen, which I was hoping for, was that some healthcare infrastructure would get built which would help out in the future, but I know it was too much to expect for India.

Yes, people die of innumerable reasons everyday and over time we humans get used to it. But I will repeat, it was not unnatural the way humanity reacted to a new disease which was extremely infective and was killing so many people.

I agree with most of your points except -
1. "we were basing our decisions on what we were seeing happening around the world" - which was the first and biggest mistake considering that our population demographics are completely different, and in fact this is what has played a major role in the disease curve in India.
2. "As for people with mild cases hogging beds unnecessarily, you can't ignore the fact that many people can't isolate themselves at their homes properly." - is really not that difficult, considering how slums like Dharavi also managed to do this. Besides, if that's the concern, then you need an isolation/quarantine centre/hotel, not an actual hospital.
3. "was killing so many people" - around 1.5 to 1.6 lakhs in 11 months. Do you know the under 5 mortality in our country due to malnutrition alone? The govt will not be too happy to answer that either.
Because, responsible governments need to have structure, planning and execution, not knee jerk reactions.

Originally Posted by rdst_1

This is exactly what I said. Later on, the govt here realized that they can use the excuse of CoVID to pass whatever illogical rules they wanted and yes we people did allow that. But don't you think, that it is completely natural for people to be afraid of a pandemic like this, in the beginning.
If you've watched the movie 'V for Vendetta', it shows the same modus-operandi of a govt engineering a disease and then using that to manipulate, control and ultimately enslave people and how the media played a big role in it.

I agree with almost everything you have said, but you have to realize that common man can't understand the details and intricacies as you can and I am thankful that you are at least trying to educate us

That's the ugly part - using the fear to control people in any other matter simply by using the epidemic act. How would supporters of this govt like it if we repealed all new laws and amendments and lived by only such laws that were created a century ago?
Of course, I do not expect the common man to understand the intricacies of medicine (from MBBS to specialization we study 12 years and yet have to keep learning), but I can at least expect common sense. It's not as if fake news, WhatsApp universities and biased news channels suddenly sprouted in 2020 and took us by surprise - I myself am largely immune to these tactics since a few years now, and I feel educated people should also use their grey matter (more than their eyes and ears) to process all the junk that is being fed to them. Otherwise, the totally illiterate are actually better off. Ignorance is bliss.

Originally Posted by atnyia

Evidently, you have got the whole point in reverse. I am trying to say that scale matters. Severe diseases on a small scale don't necessarily cause a big problem on the large scale. Conversely, what could be relatively harmless on a small scale can cause big problems on a larger scale. Previously, I made the same point taking an example of DDoS. I am making a similar point with Polio as well. But, you are turning it into something that I don't intend to say or mean.
As you and doc Vivek already said - it is no longer a health emergency, not at least in India, I agree on that for several months, I don't agree with returning lockdowns and night curfews in some places.
This is the second time you have quoted me in the exact opposite sense of what I am saying. I don't have interest* in any more of it.

Pandemic = global scale. As far as our living space is concerned, that's the end of it. I'm glad we agree on something (lockdowns and curfews) - I don't mean to oppose you (or anyone) - I'm merely staying the facts from a medical standpoint, and social medicine is actually the lengthiest (& dreaded) subject of the MBBS curriculum!

Originally Posted by PearlJam

I think @Zen2001 has already answered this earlier:

Our healthcare system suffered what you refer to as DDOS, simply because most of those who utilised hospital beds (in private, and initially even govt hospitals) had mild disease and could well have saved those resources for those who were more severe. The govt and media fuelled hypochondria was responsible for this - who wants a bed now?

Bingo!

Originally Posted by atnyia

As you bring this point, the question is to you. Can you please tell me why there was a widespread oxygen shortage both in KA and specifically in MH (widely reported in local media) if everything was a false pretense of the disease?

Besides, do you want to have another look at what I have quoted? In my post I did describe why SARS or MERS or Ebola didn't become pandemic level problems despite severe diseases, he quoted me implying the exact opposite meaning of it. So, I don't think he deserves any more explanations (already mentioned about lack of interest).

I really have to pity your information source - the media. Nobody wants to listen to a shortage of a few litres of oxygen - so what do they do? Rant and rave about some supply chain disruption, some technical/biomedical engineering glitch by amplifying the issue to a level that convinces you that we are running out of oxygen on earth! Well played, media, but sadly the joke is on you people who believe them. I used to drive around 300km per week in and around the city for hospital duties all during the complete lockdown of april-june, and besides ambulances, police patrols, and vegetable carrying vehicles, I saw plenty of oxygen cylinder loaded trucks on a regular basis. I hope they weren't just taking joyrides.

Originally Posted by atnyia

The article also talks about a large base. Where did it come from? 6% of active patients requiring oxygen support. Is this normal? What if there were no social distancing or masks? How many more patients would be at the hospitals?

Despite all that social distancing, lockdowns, oxygen consumption at hospitals was 4 times than normal.

How is this false pretense of supposedly healthy people occupying beds?

If this isn't a potential DDoS, then what is?

6%? Almost 100% of all ICU and post op patients require supplemental oxygen, and I'm not even bothering about the ones who are given it on ward beds. That's easily 20-30% of bed occupancy of any typical multi speciality hospital. Now I'm curious why we've never had this "shortage" despite such sustained demands for the 20 years that I've seen of hospitals. Also to point out that these "routine patients" were actually never in the hospital during this Covid frenzy (unless someone had a road accident while working from home!), so oxygen use was actually LESS!

Originally Posted by am1m

Just logged in to thank you doctors again for your posts. Several of us are following what you post here, and are grateful for your views based on your actual, practical medical background in an Indian context.

Some people will still continue to argue and debate with actual doctors who are seeing covid patients, based on google/whatsapp conferred medical degrees ; that is just the nature of the online medium, but please do continue with your medical fact-based posts. They are invaluable.

THANK YOU. Google patients are nothing new to me! My job is to lead then to the right path. After all, you can only take the horse to the water, but you can't make it drink! Even if 1 out of a100 benefits from what I say, it's worth the 99 arguments.

Originally Posted by PearlJam

I second that wholeheartedly! The qualified doctors' first hand myth-debunking, advice, big picture, hard data, experience, and reports on Covid-19 from ground zero are (and have been) invaluable. I would give that a lot of weightage (especially here on team-bhp) any day, compared to what-about and what-if random messages of doom, or one-off instances bordering on fake news.

Please keep posting

Originally Posted by v1p3r

+1. Glad to have actual experts on the ground, who can spare time to share knowledge with us.

Thank you, Pearl jam and v1p3r. Will keep updating - until I receive so many infractions for back to back posts, that I'll be banned from here!

Originally Posted by proton

I made a post stating I would refuse to take remdesivir if I were to go down with Covid-19.

In this post:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ml#post4919301 (The Coronavirus Thread)

he made it seem like I advised the opposite.

Quote
This trial has largely proven the ineffectiveness of Remdesivir (across 70 participant countries). I don't know what more evidence you are looking for.

I gave up trying to communicate with him.

I just quoted the results of the largest study related to Remdesivir, and how this study completely exposed the ones carried out by its manufacturers to get the restricted EUA - I have no personal agenda.

[proton]

Originally Posted by Zen2001

I just quoted the results of the largest study related to Remdesivir, and how this study completely exposed the ones carried out by its manufacturers to get the restricted EUA - I have no personal agenda.

No personal agenda was implied. You may have good intentions, but as the saying goes, the road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

No one wants confusion in this crisis situation. So please keep the information clear. Thanks in advance.

[vb-saan]

Mod Note: Please keep the discussion purely on information sharing on Corona Virus / COVID-19 Pandemic.
Any posts that are political in nature, or with a disrespectful tone (to fellow members) will be removed.

Thank you for your understanding!