[bblost]

Originally Posted by DCEite

An ayurvedic medicine does not go through the same set of steps as allopathic drug for approvals and regulations. I hope you get the drift.

I am sorry but I don't get the drift.

Why are they not stringently tested, approved and regulated?

[INJAXN]

How did they ( Patanjali doctors) tested the medicine on +ve patient, I mean was this testing authorized by the government? Did they do the testing in government hospital or in their ashrams ?

There was no news of Patanjali making/testing a medicine , they directly announced that they have what the world needs.

They have also said that, the coronil kit can be taken for prevention from Covid. They want to sell the medicine on fear. Lot of people will fall for this bait and would like to prevent themselves from getting the virus.

I think even if disapproved as cure of Covid, Patanjali will still get approval (or already have it) to sell the coronil as 'Immunity booster' or even 'Prevention kit' and will make good amount of money.

[mayankk]

And now, this:

[reignofchaos]

Originally Posted by mayankk

And now, this:

Looks like it is a completely shambolic situation. This is nothing but profiteering in times of an epidemic.

I hope all the people responsible for this sham are put behind bars for mischief. This is exactly what the epidemic act is meant to stop.

[m8002?]

Already cases have been filed

https://m.rediff.com/news/report/com...m/20200624.htm

The govt. Agencies are also washing their hands off now
https://news.rediff.com/commentary/2...9f1e474acfed79

[Sree]

Lots of important allopathy medicines were initially derived from plants- including anticancer drugs and antibiotics. Nowadays, it's true that they are chemically synthesized.

Similarly, important new anticancer and antimalarial drugs have come into allopathy from Chinese traditional medicine.

Have we ever thought why Ayurveda is not able to contribute in a similar manner. It's just lack of proper documentation and data . But as long as we have this attitude of if it Ayurvedic- it's good and has no side effects and there's no need for trials and data, it will never be accepted by the scientific world.

It's no use if only some elite doctor is able to cure someone of a dreadful disease using medicine he only knows. The whole process should be well documented and reproducible so that a doctor far away can use the same process to help a patient coming to him.

[skdking]

Originally Posted by DCEite

When did i say they are authorizing it as "treatment". Ofcourse it will be approved as immunity boosters. Not because the drug itself is not curative or not, but because of the technicality of how Ayush functions and what is in its domain.



I am not sure about your fixation with "GauMutra" and what that link has ...........

Anyway, i rest my case here. Let the Ayush ministry/Drug controller of India decide on this drug and its sale. And i hope it works well to reduce the mortality rates of Covid-19 in India. In the same way i hope for FabiFlu and Remdesivir too.

Well articulated, DCEite. Someone had to present the other side's arguments too.

Friends, Indian system of medicine is not GauMutra. GauMutra is a jibe used to beat down the 'desi'.Or the 'ganwaar'. It's like calling a Black as nig$er.

I request everyone to be extremely cautious before they unknowingly propagate such offensive ideas.

I wish peace to everyone.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Sree

Have we ever thought why Ayurveda is not able to contribute in a similar manner. It's just lack of proper documentation and data . But as long as we have this attitude of if it Ayurvedic- it's good and has no side effects and there's no need for trials and data, it will never be accepted by the scientific world.

Ayurveda is another system of medicine that uses chemicals to treat sickness. Just as in allopathy, some of those chemicals are quite poisonous, and their misuse has got people into trouble in the past.

Patanjali is a highly commercial organisation, with someone who is something of a showman as its head. Say this had been announced by, just for instance, Himalaya Herbals (yes, they do make much more than shampoos and facecreams), might it have been taken more seriously? I, as just another non-medical guy on the street, would say yes.

As a potential customer, consumer, or even patient, does Baba Ramdev inspire any confidence in me? None whatsoever. Am I against herbal medicines, ayurvedic and others, regardless of culture or nationality? Absolutely not. I am very much in favour of them.

Maybe there are people in the Baba's organisation who are sincerely working on the corvid19 problem. I actually hope there are! And I don't mean to cast aspersions on them. Many industries have problems with the behaviour of the marketing departments.

[ABHI_1512]

While we are all looking forward to medicines for curing COVID, the sincere doctors who have used plasma therapy as a stop gap measure to treat the serious corona patients have been fairly successful in some cases and hence it is now an approved therapy in many countries and in many states of India.

But for all the good reasons of plasma therapy, one major thing is that the donor has to come forward for the donation. I would have hoped that our folks will come in droves to save our fellow people suffering from corona but no, seems that not everyone shares the same view. This is what recovered people in Mumbai did when requested for donation of plasma. Read on folks and deduce your own conclusion.



https://www.freepressjournal.in/mumb...-donate-plasma

[adrian]

Originally Posted by DCEite

Mmm but why not have the same yardstick for allopathic cures as well. Why only for "Herbal".

The problem is our own slave mentality. Anything which comes from the west is godsend. And anything
that is homegrown is utter crap.

Sir, I am frankly confused as to why you are bringing in the whole system of Ayurveda into the argument when I am posting something on a lighter note.

Even in my earlier posts I had clarified that I am not against Ayurveda or Homeopathy or any system of medicine. But I take good care to evaluate the manufacturer of these products. If the proposed corona medicine was manufactured by Dabur or Kottakkal Arya Vaidya Shala or the like, definitely I wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. Do you know why ? Because there is at least an assurance that the ingredients will be as per standards and will not be the cause of a new ailment. I will not touch the product of a company who cannot get their amla juice or ghee right.

Looks like everyone who were skeptical were proved right. As per the news in Indian Express, the company in question administered allopathic medicines to mildly symptomatic patients when they developed fever during the trial phase. (Remember I mentioned "Crocinaadi vadakam")

https://indianexpress.com/article/in...drugs-6475004/

IMHO it is people and companies like this who are bringing insult to the great system of Ayurveda, practiced in our country, by people regardless of caste and religion.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by adrian

Sir, I am frankly confused as to why you are bringing in the whole system of Ayurveda

I am constantly surprised by the need to prove that we believe in a particular cult, system of medicine, prove our patriotism when we discuss diseases, cures, science and technology and even viruses.

Today, Ayurveda is nowhere, except when conveniently exploited by quacks. The body of knowledge under Ayurveda that has been tested and found useful has been absorbed into modern medicine, whatever remains unproven but useful has researchers curious but respectful, just as with Chinese medicine or other systems. Even aboriginal remedies are collected and analyzed for active ingredients and then converted to cures after thorough testing. What is the need to invoke "Ayurveda" when you have a cure? No self respecting researcher would want her cure to be a substandard or ineffective one and then be labelled as an Ayurvedic cure. But you cannot prevent politicians, quacks and shady businesses from using it to exploit gullible people. The saddest part is the authorities who are supposed to prevent this sort of exploitation are colluding with unethical businessmen. I am sure that despite the Ayush ministry/department putting out a (weak) notice against the firm advertising the bogus corona-virus cure, those pushing it will not bother to inform everyone. In fact, my apartment WhatsApp group has yet to publish the statement of the Uttarkhand License Officer, though they were the first to spread the initial claim.

But here is some limited good news

Polio vaccines come in two varieties: inactivated (administered by injection) and weakened (administered orally). Together, the two vaccines have nearly eradicated polio. They have also been found to confer some degree of immunity against other types of infections, both bacterial and viral. In their paper, the researchers argue for testing to see if the oral (weakened) vaccine might prove effective in preventing COVID-19 infections.

They confer some degree of immunity against other infections because they activate an innate immune response, known as the first line of defense response. In contrast, immunity is conferred against certain viruses when a person is infected with it specifically, because the body produces antibodies specifically geared towards fighting it. The authors of the Perspective piece suggest that activating the first line of defense via the oral vaccine may be all some people need to ward off COVID-19 infections. They note also that recent research has shown that the SARS-CoV-2 virus can suppress the innate immune response in patients with more serious symptoms.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by mvadg

Today, Ayurveda is nowhere, except when conveniently exploited by quacks. The body of knowledge under Ayurveda that has been tested and found useful has been absorbed into modern medicine, whatever remains unproven but useful has researchers curious but respectful, just as with Chinese medicine or other systems. Even aboriginal remedies are collected and analyzed for active ingredients and then converted to cures after thorough testing.

Thanks. As you said it applies to almost all traditional medical knowledge.

Let's call the Indian cultural knowledge of medicine the Indian pharmacopedia. It has been analysed, active ingredients isolated, and used where necessary. And unscrupulous people have even tried to patent it, and we had to fight a rearguard action to prevent it.

This also applies to the Chinese 'pharmacopedia'. Incidentally it is better documented, and covers the folk (medical) wisdom for a longer period of time, and is thus 'thicker'. And that too has been analysed.

Tibetan medicine, because of lack of access to resources, is a mix of Indian and Chinese systems (more Indian than Chinese) reduced to its bare essentials, removing that which is superfluous.

Same also I guess with Unani.

But to be accepted as remedies in the modern world, no matter what the origin, it has to pass the standard tests.

Sutripta

[diyguy]

My work is related to factory software and manufacturing operations. My colleague has worked at the Patanjali plant and he stopped using their products after that. Cosmetic products are manufactured in the open with no protection from contaminations. I have no bias and my mom is a heavy user of these products inspite of letting her know this fact

[Sree]

Scarce Medical Oxygen Worldwide Leaves Many Gasping for Life https://nyti.ms/2Z8dNZM

What is the use of an oximeter if you are not having access to oxygen and ICU beds in your city. I am hearing horrible stories from my doctor friends.

[PearlJam]

A question I've been having for some time now:

Aren't we all overreacting/panicking with this whole Covid thing? Let me explain. We have a lot more data now than we did 2 months ago.

If you see https://www.worldometers.info/corona...country/india/, the current deaths in India stands at 15042, and positive count is 481179. We are testing around 2.1 lakh a day, and around 16000 are showing up as positive every day. As we all know, 2.1 lakhs a day is an incredibly small number relative to the size of our population.

Now suppose we were testing 10 or 20 times of this every day, i.e 21 or 42 lakhs a day. What do you thing would be the daily positive case count? Guess? We don't know, but it will definitely be many more times of 16000. It means that a lot more of us are infected, probably asymptomatic, all without even knowing about it. An ICMR test in some containment areas apparently found a very high antibody count, signifying that a lot more people have got infected and recovered without being aware of it.

Now, see this article: https://in.dental-tribune.com/news/n...inst-whos-3-4/

"The new CDC estimates for the severity, complications and deaths of COVID-19 bring down the numbers much lower making the overall scenario very optimistic. There is an ever-growing confusion between the two terms used for the death (fatality) rate. Read the addendum to understand the difference between the two numbers - CFR vs IFR. The original WHO numbers give an estimate of Case Fatality Rate (CFR). The new CDC numbers represent the Infection Fatality Rate (IFR)."

For the first time, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has given a realistic estimate of the overall death rate for COVID-19, which in its most likely scenario is 0.26 %. They estimate a 0.4 % fatality rate among the symptomatic cases. If you consider their projection that 35% of all infected cases remain asymptomatic, the overall infection fatality rate (IFR) drops to just 0.26 %. This is almost exactly what the Stanford researchers had projected in April 2020.

As per various reports, infection fatality rate is around 0.3%. Some reports even report a lower percentage.

Some modelling by so called "experts" initially predicted a death rate of 30 times of seasonal flu. It now seems to be only 3 times of the flu now, with chances of it being lower still.

The IFR is close to zero for children. The IFR is extremely low for people below 50. The IFR goes higher with age and comorbidity.


Remember that modelling experts have gone horribly wrong in the past. Whether it's the mad cow disease or swine flu. Modelling also doesn't take interventions/new solutions/new strategies developed during the course of the disease into consideration, and predict a "flat" result without feedback.

Here's another article quoting CDC which is even more detailed:


https://reason.com/2020/05/24/the-cd...ate-below-0-3/

Now coming to lockdowns, I assume this is what happens: The Government asks a group of experts - "should I lock down?"

Now the "expert" has a lot riding on his shoulders. He looks at what Wuhan did, and sees that things became better after the lockdown. He also thinks "If I suggest that a lockdown is not required, and then if things deteriorate, I will be blamed. On the other hand, if I suggest a lockdown, I am safe. If cases go up, I can say that things would have been worse without a lockdown. If things get better, then I can say that lockdown has helped". Hence, it's a no-brainer to suggest a lockdown. On the other hand, suggesting otherwise needs a lot of courage.

(PS1: We say 481179 are positive in India. Really? I would assume atleast 20 times of that. Even if the death rates are 3 times of official count, it would be 45000. Case fatality rate should hence be around 0.46%)

(PS2: These official death numbers don't even reflect the thousands of lives lost due to extended lockdowns beyond the first 3-4 weeks. Deaths due to starvation, migrants, depression, people who couldn't receive regular medical care, etc.)

(PS3: The lockdown first 3 weeks were only meant to buy time and set the infrastructure ready. Now with the extended 2 months lockdown, looks like we have the worst of everything)

So in short, it looks the elderly and vulnerable have to be protected, and the rest should be simply freed up from all restrictions. Obviously, all social distancing norms, hand washing, etc needs to be promoted and the masses educated. Nothing really more than that.

I'll be happy to hear contrasting views!