[shankar.balan]

I may have another 20-30 years on the planet. I ll try in this time, not to create excess waste and shall try as always to plant trees and be kind to all animals and overall generally be nice.
But I will eat what I want and drink what I want, in moderation, drive my Turbo petrol car and my Naturally aspirated Petrol car as I wish to, go on holiday whenever I want to, rent whatever car takes my fancy, and generally live life the way I want to - and if I am being politically incorrect according to Greta Thunberg and her various disciples, in the matter of speaking my mind, in this manner, then so be it.

[digitalnirvana]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

.
But I will eat what I want and drink what I want, in moderation,

This is the key. Indians have a varied diet and we eat a fraction of the world's red meat (mostly because cows / buffaloes are not consumed by Hindus).

America is a different matter. Their diet is primarily meat, and vegetables play a very less role. Beef by itself is extremely resource intensive, and when you factor in the water, nitrogen requirements and foremost the corn growing cost to the environment - it is a huge huge waste. Vast swathes of the mid west grows corn, and for what? To be turned into cornmeal feed for cows to be reared on. That land and water could be well used for growing vegetables.

But beyond all of this we need to realize that farmers won't produce something that isn't economically viable. For example corn dominates even the sugar industry in USA with high fructose corn syrup being used everywhere instead of sugar. These lobbies won't go away. The average Westerner won't stop eating meat. The average SE Asian or Chinese won't stop eating fish. The Chinese won't stop overfishing and flouting catchment laws till most of the oceans are barren.

It's just the way that we are and the short-term thinking that we are so inexorably bound to.

There is a trend of making the common man responsible and aware while the mega corporations and even entire countries simply evade or brazenly defy climate protocols. Mega trawlers and container ships contribute more to ocean damage and climate change than the entire world's car population combined. But there's always deflection from those who control society. Its always showing us the trees for the woods. It's always been the common man who has to change. We have to think organic, free range, vegetarian, vegan even. And I am thankful that some of us do. But CEOs or politicians need not of course, because share prices and economic are key factors. Who cares about the environment anyway? They'll be long dead when the inevitable happens.

I think in the long run lab grown meat is the only viable solution, along with factory fishing / near shore fishing.

In the mean time, take your children to the forests, savannahs and mountains and let them see animals which will be extinct outside zoos in fifty years time.

[shankar.balan]

Economic Imperialism by the Industry lobbies. Sugar and Gluten is the new devil. Coconut Oil and Ghee used to be the devil but now has morphed into an angel.
Our world in India was relatively unsullied in the 1980's with the rank greed and over consumption of the 2000's. Food actually tasted better.

Philosophically, we are in the midst of Kaliyugam. And Kalki Avataram will come upon us soon enough.

The Apocalypse and the World as we know it will be engulfed with Water and the Earth will finally get a chance to rejuvenate herself.

It is cyclical. It will happen.
Like the Dinosaurs, Humans will self destruct and go extinct.

And a good thing too, in my opinion.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by digitalnirvana

This is the key. Indians have a varied diet and we eat a fraction of the world's red meat (mostly because cows / buffaloes are not consumed by Hindus).

I am sorry but that is wrong. Beef is eaten widely by Hindus in many southern states (TN and Kerala just to start with) and is an important ingredient in the menu of many - mostly Dalit - communities across India.

In fact, in Kerala unlike other states where beef is only served in five star hotels or shady roadside joints, you can walk into a reputable medium priced restaurant and tuck into beef - porotta or kappa erachi (tapioca cooked with beef).

And then there is that other and much more expensive red meat, mutton, that gets eaten by well to do people across India.

So red meat consumption is actually quite high in India besides all the other uses for dead cattle (bone meal fertiliser, leather, that sort of thing). No part goes to waste.

There simply won’t be enough land to grow food grains and vegetables if meat eating were to be totally eliminated and substituted with vegetarian or vegan alternatives.

As for lab grown meat, we will probably come to that to supplement or replace normal meat once the human population increases beyond the capacity of this planet to provide food for it, or once we travel into deep space for extended periods and surely cannot take cows / sheep or grow plants aboard a spacecraft.

But it is disingenuous to suggest that replacing meat with this stuff is an ecologically sound option. Mass production of anything from an industrial process can be assumed to be energy intensive.

Also to the bhpian who sneered at “autistic kids” - I suppose he means Greta Thunberg- flying around the world to lecture people, Greta travels by sailboat or train, she avoids aircraft, cars etc for precisely the reason that it would not be fair on her part to lecture people on the environment and not follow environmentally sound practices herself.

[Nissan1180]

The studies about Beef being a climate hazard focus on Brazil where the Amazon is destroyed to raise cattle. The sad thing is that the Amazon will be destroyed anyway. Soyabean will be grown to feed the vegan appetite for proteins.

Closer to home, the oil we use for cooking is largely blended Palm Oil which is produced in the most destructive ways in Indonesia by burning forests that causes a smog every year in the ASEAN. The global food supply chain is not geared towards sustainability, and won't be in the near future. There is no political will about this, as the recent failure at the climate change talks in Madrid show.

Also, I don't think that the animal cultivation practises in India are half as bad as elsewhere. Buffaloes are fed using grass that's grown in the fields, not by clearing forested land. And chickens are largely grown in small farms.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by Nissan1180

Closer to home, the oil we use for cooking is largely blended Palm Oil .....

Thank you for pointing all these out. We have our own share of forest clearance in India for a variety of things from agriculture to new highways. For example a low traffic single road from Dindigul to Natham is legendary among TN BHPians for being fully tree lined and silky smooth surfaced - a lot of trees along this stretch were being cut for road widening when I last checked, possibly given the extremely low traffic levels that don’t justify it, to enrich some contractor.

[Hayek]

There is no doubt that being vegan is better for the environment than being someone who eats red meat every day.

Some stats:

1 kg of lamb leads to 39 kg of CO2
1 kg of beef leads to 27 kg of CO2
1 kg of cheese leads to 13.5 kg of CO2
1 kg of pork leads to 12.1 kg of CO2
1 kg of chicken leads to 6.9 kg of CO2
1 kg of Tuna leads to 6.1 kg of CO2
1 kg of Eggs leads to 4.8 kg of CO2
1 kg of Rice leads to 2.9 kg of CO2
1 kg of Tofu leads to 2.0 kg of CO2
1 kg of Milk leads to 1.9 kg of CO2
1 kg of Lentils leads to 0.9 kg of CO2

Am shocked at folks asking, “Where will the extra vegetarian food come from?” - the fact is that the bulk of global soy and corn production is used as animal feed - which is why the carbon footprint of red meat is so high.

So there is no doubt that lamb and beef eating is a disaster for the environment. But vegetarians who have a cheese sandwich instead of a chicken one are actually doubling their carbon footprint. And using almond milk instead of real milk helps too - 1 litre of almond milk emits just 25% of the missions from 1 litre of real milk (and used much less water as well).

I also checked on carbon emissions from fuel - burning 1 litre of diesel leads to 2.7 kg of CO2 emissions, 1 litre of petrol leads to 2.3 kg of CO2. So someone who drives 8000 km per annum with a diesel car which delivers 9 km per litre, you emit 2,400 kg of CO2.

People eat about 2.5 kg of food per day - but waste about 1/3 of the food - so let’s work with 3.75 kg of food per day.

Let’s look at 3 extremes - someone who gets 1/2 of his food tonnage from red meat and 1/2 from cereals - emits 72 kg of CO2 per day or 26,280 kg per year

Someone who gets 2/3 of his food from cereals and tofu, and 1/3 from chicken and fish - emits 14.5 kg of CO2 per day or 5300 kg per year.

Finally, someone who is vegan - and gets 2/3 from cereals and tofu and 1/3 from pulses emits 7.5 kg per day or 2737 kg per year.

So even a vegan ends up emitting as much CO2 from food as I do by driving, and a hard core red meat eater emits nearly 9x that amount.

However, 1 business class return trip from Bombay to New York via Dubai (something I do 3 - 5 times a year) leads to 8200 kg of CO2 emissions. For those of us who travel a lot on work, that is the primary source of our emissions - and using a Telepresence once a year would save thrice of what we save by switching from a typically Indian chicken / fish eating non vegetarian to a vegan diet.

However, the hard core red meat eater would need to avoid 3 trips a year to compensate for his diet - so yes, switching from red meat to a diet loaded towards chicken / fish makes a big difference - and become vegan is even more impactful.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by hserus

In fact, in Kerala unlike other states where beef is only served in five star hotels or shady roadside joints, you can walk into a reputable medium priced restaurant and tuck into beef - porotta or kappa erachi (tapioca cooked with beef).

Also to the bhpian who sneered at “autistic kids” - I suppose he means Greta Thunberg- flying around the world to lecture people, Greta travels by sailboat or train, she avoids aircraft, cars etc for precisely the reason that it would not be fair on her part to lecture people on the environment and not follow environmentally sound practices herself.

Yes, I did that just yesterday.

You don't get to lecture people and whine if they push back. Greta used a carbon fiber yacht to virtue signal about flying and then had crew members taking 4 flights to help her along. Carbon fibre itself is made with a lot of energy, footprint reduction my foot. Does travelling first class on trains reduce carbon emissions? That experience was part of her stolen childhood. I can't believe that grownups fall for this orchestrated media circus.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by Hayek

There is no doubt that being vegan is better for the environment than being someone who eats red meat every day.

Some stats:

1 kg of lamb leads to 39 kg of CO2

A cogent analysis if and only if you compare apples to oranges, or the calorific equivalents of 1 kg of lamb versus 1 kg of say rice or potatoes.

A kilo of lamb gets you 2,940 calories, a kilo of rice 1300 calories, cheese 4020 calories, potato 770 calories.

[navin]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Ah so this is what Lewis Hamilton was talking about:

He can't be one to talk. The sport he is part of is one of the least ecologically insensitive sports. You fly gas-guzzling sports cars and teams of people all over the world for 9 months and hope that turning vegan helps?

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by navin

He can't be one to talk. The sport he is part of is one of the least ecologically insensitive sports. You fly gas-guzzling sports cars and teams of people all over the world for 9 months and hope that turning vegan helps?

Yes and he is getting ridiculed by fellow drivers as well as public properly.

He also sold his ruby red private jet which he was using to travel to all the races and now flies commercial.

[Kosfactor]

The headline is perhaps misleading, as expected out of the clickbait journalism these days! On this context I have to tell that we are in an accelerated process of eliminating one of the major sources of Green House gases!

Let's read through this article as well.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bu...BoCWm8QAvD_BwE

So food production in general is more harmful than cars, but it is not as harmful as the number 1 emitter of Green House emissions - Electricity Generation! So now electric cars anyone?

There is a bigger problem in our country than greenhouse emissions - feeding the population! We have the majority of the world's Malnourished children, Availability of nutritious food is a problem, meat is an important source of this nutrition and a good way to retire the animals that gives other useful products during their lifetime. Live stock is a necessary addition to the current civilized society, we need to get used to it as well as utilize it sustainably.

[trkauditya]

This topic has been on my mind for a long time and I completely agree that our dietary habits need to be blamed for the spike in environmental pollution. The direct effects of meat / beef production is only one part of it. What about the amount of water the industry consumes for live stock feeding, cleaning etc ? And the electricity the meat processing units consume and the impact due of transportation ?

Its not limited to beef consumption. Think about the packaged goods and the amount of plastic it dumps on earth. And not to forget the new found indulgence of consuming non-native / exotic foods. What is the carbon foot print of transporting fruits and other perishable items by air from South America ?

We have to realize and agree to this at some point.

[digitalnirvana]

Originally Posted by hserus

I am sorry but that is wrong. Beef is eaten widely by Hindus in many southern states (TN and Kerala just to start with) and is an important ingredient in the menu of many - mostly Dalit - communities across India.
....

So red meat consumption is actually quite high in India....

Hi Suresh yes I am aware of Beef consumption in Kerala especially but still the meat we consume is a fraction of some Western countries. I was trying to say that even as individuals we reduce meat consumption (which I fully support), this change is needed for America and the top meat eating countries. And more than that, a fundamental change in how countries and corporations look at climate change is needed.

Just going to leave these graphs here from the BBC to show how our meat eating trends have always remained very low compared to countries like China who have increased meat consumption (pork in their case) as they became more affluent.

Indians historically have had a varied diet and we are not among the top 50 countries in terms of meat consumption (especially red meat).

Our problem with pollution is to do with crop burning, coal based electricity generation, and poor rural to urban transition / planning in general.

[hserus]

Fair enough but the reduction in meat consumption here is quite often because of being viewed in an "overall" sort of context, vegetarian and meat eater populations combined, and because local cuisines tend to use small pieces of chopped meat in gravies, fries etc, rather than big slabs of meat like is used in steaks and bacon.