[bblost]

That might be true of overcooked meat. I personally prefer medium and use a thermometer when cooking chicken.

I also agree with your neurosurgeon. Vegetarians have an incomplete diet.

[ZedMae]

Not exactly related to veganism, but related to the conversations in this thread - the following link is an excellent narration of what our ancestors ate -

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/f...ution-of-diet/

The geography of the tribes has been largely influential in determining what they ate - and though they largely got their calories from meat, there were lean periods when they had to get by with plant foods. And yeah most importantly, most of the modern day diseases were unheard of in their times

[bblost]

Originally Posted by ZedMae

And yeah most importantly, most of the modern day diseases were unheard of in their times

Because life expectancy was quite short and most people did not live long enough to get heart ailments or cancer.

[Nav-i-gator]

I would digress a bit here.

We tend to be somehow empathetic/sympathetic for things that bleed red. We would not hesitate to eat an egg, or a plant, kill an insect without much of a second thought. However, the very sight of a chicken getting slaughtered, looking at the blood, we get goosebumps. Most of the converted vegetarians have seen a slaughter, thereby having a change of mind.

We don't give a second glance to (in fact we celebrate as festivals) the harvesting season. We fret in agony looking at a tiger attacking, devouring and eating alive a deer on TV, while our society outside is undergoing fumigation to get rid of mosquitoes.

There are merits to go vegetarian, it is having highest ecological efficiency (roughly 1% of solar energy being converted to "flesh" for a vegetarian, against 0.1% for a "1st order" carnivore); sparing a life is not one of them.

Everything humans consume is mass produced today. More of a necessity than a moral question - we raise chicken, cows and other Meat-giving animals and we raise crops. We "design" them to give maximum of what we need - not what they need. Same for animals, same for plants. We have hybrid animals, hybrid vegetables, genetically modified animals and crops are next.

What we eat and what we not is entirely up to our choice, or a decision of our conscience - to what we perceive as good and what as bad. We are the most advanced species on earth, we have a conscience and intelligence; Our intelligence has made us a conscience bearing virus - and highly successful at that. We live through taking lives, not only to live/survive, but to prosper.

Over the course of our civilization history, we have selectively propagated certain species of plants and animals for our own needs, rest have been left to die slowly. I am pretty sure, only chicken, cattle and other animals that we eat, paddy, wheat, corns, veg and other plants/plant-produce that we consume will survive over the next 1000 years or so, rest all will be extinct.

If whole of humanity will convert to vegetarianism, we would need much much more crops, much more area under cultivation. That would diminish the already diminishing forest cover even faster. Rate of extinction of wild animals will further accelerate.

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by bblost

Because life expectancy was quite short and most people did not live long enough to get heart ailments or cancer.

I think he did mention modern day (lifestyle) diseases. Most tribals die due to exposure to parasites, malaria and malnutrition and lack of basic healthcare where most of such things are taken care of. Having to domesticate animals does use up more water and also contributes to global warming. I am veg by choice.

Thread is getting OT

[Nav-i-gator]

Imagine a world where all humans are non-vegetarians. We would still be growing plants - for flavors, as condiments, spices and side servings (rice or Roti for example). There will be an ecology still intact (although with feeble balance), plants to feed animals that we eat, plants to prepare food, associated animals and insects that the animals (we eat) eat themselves.

Now, Imagine the entire human population going strictly vegetarian. There is no need to raise chicken and other meat-producing animals. Many of these animals will go extinct (I think chicken will definitely be extinct, there is no active role that it plays in ecology. It is not a prime source of food for anyone other than humans). More crops are needed to be grown, more insects and pests needed to be killed to produce more crops, more forests needed to be razed to increase cropped area. More wild animals would go extinct due to diminishing forests and increased human activity in their natural habitat.

Given our (humans') ways of living, vegetarianism is a choice between killing domesticated animals and killing wild animals (or both actually)!

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Imagine a world where all humans are non-vegetarians. We would still be growing plants - for flavors, as condiments, spices and side servings (rice or Roti for example). There will be an ecology still intact (although with feeble balance), plants to feed animals that we eat, plants to prepare food, associated animals and insects that the animals (we eat) eat themselves.

Now, Imagine the entire human population going strictly vegetarian. There is no need to raise chicken and other meat-producing animals. Many of these animals will go extinct (I think chicken will definitely be extinct, there is no active role that it plays in ecology. It is not a prime source of food for anyone other than humans). More crops are needed to be grown, more insects and pests needed to be killed to produce more crops, more forests needed to be razed to increase cropped area. More wild animals would go extinct due to diminishing forests and increased human activity in their natural habitat.

Given our (humans') ways of living, vegetarianism is a choice between killing domesticated animals and killing wild animals (or both actually)!

Agree with extinction of some species. Regarding the use of land, you are wrong. More land is required for rearing animals than producing plant based food for people. Major portion of agricultural land today is used for meat production. Impact on ecology, water consumption and carbon emission is worse with meat production than vegetarian or vegan diets. Most of Amazon land forest was wiped to create pastures for animals.

[avdhesh15]

My line is drawn at eggs. Can't even think of giving up milk, curd, eggs etc! Being a vegetarian, there would be no protein source left to support my gym apart from powders and chemicals. Which I try to restrict to a scoop a day, that too only whey protein.

[pavanmadhini]

A set of random thoughts:

Whenever I see the sprawling tea gardens and coffee plantations in the Nilgiris, I remember how lakhs of acres of forest would have been razed down for our cup of chai or that sip of coffee. It saddens me, but I don't stop having tea or coffee.

Today, lakhs of acres are being razed in South America for Soy agriculture so that vegans can have their protein sources. This also feeds a lot of the global meat production.

A bunch of vegans I know also just happen to have expensive iPhones and love their Zara and H&M shopping. But producing smartphones and fast fashion are also contributing to killing our planet.

Eventually, we are all bound by evolution. Our body needs "Essential" Amino Acids, cos, well, they are essential. And, we don't make them in our bodies. Animals do. Our bodies also happen to absorb Iron way better from red meat than vegetarian sources. We also need a whole bunch of other micronutrients. Yes, of course, there is always Quinoa. And Kale. And all the supplements.

My personal dream scenario is where I can farm my own vegetables and grains, and raise free-range farm animals for self-consumption.

[Guna]

I am trying to become a vegan. But I am not able to stop the dairy products completely. Have cut down on the use of leather. It is going to be difficult when it comes to choosing a car trim as most of the top end variants have leather seats

[pratika]

I was born in to a vegetarian family and so was vegetarian for most of my life. After reading several articles and watching various documentaries, we realized that vegetarianism itself isnt cruelty free. Consumption of animal products such as dairy, leather, honey, and silk is inherently cruel. Anyone interested more can read up on veal industry to get an idea of side-effects of milk consumption. Its really, really dark stuff.



So my wife and I decided to go vegan in Nov'13. The only animal product we had to cut out was dairy - as we had given up leather, silk, and honey a long time ago. We went vegan just after having our daughter and even she was turned vegan.



After about 4 yrs of being vegan, my wife developed a tingling pain in her feet which was later diagnosed as deficiency of Vitamin B12. It takes several years for this vitamin's deficiency to show up and it is one that should be taken seriously. Ignoring B12 deficiency can lead to permanent nerve damage. We even got our daughter's blood tested to be sure and she came out fine.



At that point we read more articles about veganism and prevalence of B12 deficiency. Unfortunately, the soy milk we consumed wasnt fortified sufficiently. We would be risking our health and that of our daughter unless alternative B12 dietary source was found. And we were not willing to put ourselves for lifetime of supplement pills as their side-effects are unknown.



After some doctor visits and several discussions later, we went back to being vegetarian. My wife's B12 level improved due to temporary supplementary pills prescribed. Its been about a year since we are no longer vegan and her blood work looks fine now. Lack of enough natural source of B12 made us question basis of veganism.


Being vegan is a noble idea, I think. If you've decided to go vegan, get a proper nutrition plan made and consider periodical blood tests (at least for first couple of yrs) to ensure early diagnosis of problems.


Good luck in your veganism journey.

[Hayek]

A number of points have been made in this thread - some factually correct and others that are incorrect. Let me start by stating that being a vegetarian or a vegan does not give anyone the right to claim moral superiority. The very concept of moral superiority is wrong since morals are intensely personal choices, driven by the culture one has grown up with. I am a libertarian and believe everyone must be free to choose how they wish to lead their lives.

However, I would respectfully state I don’t agree with those who say that because plants or pests also have life, killing them is the same as killing animals, whether for food or hide or just the pleasure of hunting. Animals and especially mammals are closer to humans in the evolutionary chain - and that’s the reason why we tend to get shocked when animals are killed unnecessarily but don’t feel pain in the same way when we see a lawn being mowed. And while humans may have evolved as carnivores (in fact there are lots of respected scientists who believe that it’s the ability to hunt in packs that provided the energy to let us involve our outsize brains and to develop the tools for social organisation on a large scale), the impact that we can have on the environment is dramatically different from that caused by small bands of hunter gatherers.

As for the arguments on the need for proteins, while animal protein may be essential for folks who carry out intense manual work or for world class athletes, the average Joe can easily live without them. So the fact is that in the modern urban world, veganism is a low cost choice - and one that everyone can consider.

For those who are not influenced by religion or habit, the environmental argument is the strongest one for veganism. A number of people have posted stating that if everyone converted to vegetarianism, there won’t be enough food crops available. That is clearly incorrect - the vast majority of food crops produced are used to feed animals - we need 7 kg of grain to produce 1 kg of beef, for example. So a shift to veganism would dramatically reduce the amount of food we need to produce to feed ourselves and free up land that can be returned to nature.

However, before touting environmental arguments for veganism, we should think of other lifestyle changes we can make - someone like me who flies over 100,000 Miles a year has a much larger adverse impact on the environment than even the most avid red meat eater.

[COMMUTER]

Our major problem is not the animal products but the refined ones, especially refined oil and sugar. If a person manages to stay away from these two poisonous ingredients, they can avoid many compilations. Many findings of science have been overturned by further studies. I feel that the bad influence of these two prevalent ingredients has been covered up. (Call me paranoid). I am struggling to root them out by making the diet lean heavily on boiled eggs(whole) and idlis/bananas. I hope to reach my goal parameters in the next three months.

[anand.shankar82]

My story is quite similar to several posts here. Being from a Tamil Brahmin family I was a strict vegetarian at home especially till my beloved Late Mother was around as she was very particular about this.

However, I moved out from home for graduation and during hostel days roommates would bring back some delicious smelling tandoori chicken sometimes and that is when the non-veg bug bit me. I still was a vegetarian when at home but had become a true carnivore when at hostel

This was however only limited to chicken and fish while studying

Things only got better (or worse depending on the side of the fence) when I went to US for a year and then started the steaks, hamburgers etc. and I became even more of a carnivore

Have been that way for almost 20 years till last month when unfortunately I was diagnosed with Gout. The main cause as per the doc was the meat

So for the past month I have been on a gout-friendly diet and though I do miss the meat, I am still OK with being a vegetarian. Last week I got home a pack of Hariyali Kabab from Venkys and the Gout pain started again the next day. Hence, I finally think that my carnivorous days are behind me.

My wife and kids are pure vegetarians and I do not see them complaining one bit about it. I guess I will also be on their band-wagon from now on. However, if I ever get a chance (health-wise) to go back to meat, I will be more than happy

Personally, I would never switch diets because of "social pressures". I would switch only if I liked it or had to due to health issues (like I do now) and though I understand where all the vegetarians come from when saying "Innocent animals are being killed for you", I would also say that plants are living things too and we are quite happy killing them (not all are killed but root-vegetables I guess at least end up killing the plant itself?)

I had read about "Vegan" diets but that is a bit too hard because then I have to give up my most beloved food item ... CURD RICE (Tamilians and south Indians here will know what I mean)

Cheers

[GTO]

Mod Note: I have removed my earlier Mod Note . Please continue the discussion & debate, but keep it healthy. Thanks!