[Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

So if somebody is building a fund for child's higher education or marriage, then the entire fund has to be redeemed.

I am quite curious about this felt need to build up funds for "child's marriage". I understand that a couple of generations ago, this was probably a euphuism for dowry, but in today's times, wouldn't the average person much rather give the child the money (at an appropriate time of course!) to enable them to pursue their dreams, or help them make a down payment on house (as an example?).

Do note that I am referring to the average middle class person, who slogs away for a large part of his life to put these funds aside. For the very rich of course, splurging on extravagant marriages is something of a showcase of wealth, demonstrating to society at large their spending prowess. But for our average middle class, I can't help but think his hard earned money could be put towards better use?

I raise this question with no intention to poke or bait anyone, or question their choices - I am just trying to get another perspective.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Lone Ranger

I am quite curious about this felt need to build up funds for "child's marriage". But for our average middle class, I can't help but think his hard earned money could be put towards better use?
I am just trying to get another perspective.

Ref this specific area/ category of spend - there is considerable influence from the milieu and society in which one lives. Both overtly and subliminally.

Waves of pressure do emanate subtly and not-so-subtly, from Family, extended Relatives and Peers.

And of course there are those folks who want to launch their offspring nicely into a new chapter of life.

And the ‘Wedding Market’ is a Thriving Industry in India - Clothes, Jewellery, Finery, Venues, Planning and all the attendant services.

The Sangeet and Mehendi ceremonies for example were never a part of the proceedings in Southern India. But now they have become very much an integral part of it all. Indeed they are fully ‘baked in’ as it were.

Im sure the films have a lot to do with it.
Bollywood, Kollywood, Tollywood, Mollywood, Sandalwood and what-have-you…

[Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

The Sangeet and Mehendi ceremonies for example were never a part of the proceedings in Southern India. But now they have become very much an integral part of it all. Indeed they are fully ‘baked in’ as it were.
Im sure the films have a lot to do with it.
Bollywood, Kollywood, Tollywood, Mollywood, Sandalwood and what-have-you…

This is absolutely true - back in the day I used to photograph weddings, and I saw this transition happening right in front of my eyes!

You are on point with regards to the subtle pressure and other societal prods and pokes Keeping up with the Joneses has permeated so into our lives that much of what we do seems to be governed by parameters that don't really benefit us or the ones we really care about!

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Lone Ranger

I raise this question with no intention to poke or bait anyone, or question their choices - I am just trying to get another perspective.

Marriage ceremonies are part of Indian culture/tradition. Wait, it is part of culture/tradition worldwide.

If we start questioning that, there is scope for questioning almost every discretionary spending that we do. All that cumulatively adds up or exceeds what families spend on marriage for most households. Especially when we get really pedantic about it (eg: invest in stocks, instead of going on a holiday). It's just that these expenses are in small manageable amounts, paid monthly, but spread over our entire lifetime

Compared to that, marriage expenses result in large outflow within a span of one year. This is the main factor stressing the finances.

I am quite curious about this felt need to build up funds for "child's marriage"

On a standalone basis, this is a valid question!

There is really no need to keep a separate fund for marriage or education. You can just save/invest as much as you can and dip into your investment portfolio when the time comes.

However, separate funds might be useful to people who have an itch to spend money. Even if they don't, a few others might feel more in control of their financial lives if they compartmentalize major expenditure like higher education/marriage.

[Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Marriage ceremonies are part of Indian culture/tradition. Wait, it is part of culture/tradition worldwide. If we start questioning that, there is scope for questioning almost every discretionary spending that we do.

Oh I am not questioning the tradition - it is merely the question of allocation. To put it simply, if you had to channel funds towards preserving the well being of your children, and those funds are always limited (in the sense that most of us here would always wish to do more for our loved ones, if only we had more money at our disposal ), would it not be more beneficial to the child if that money went directly to them?

Again, I am not saying that one should not spend on weddings. It is an occasion to be celebrated. I am merely asking if it should be so high on the priority list. Have a good sized fund for education I fully understand , because it opens up a whole world of possibilities for your child.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Lone Ranger

I am quite curious about this felt need to build up funds for "child's marriage". I understand that a couple of generations ago, this was probably a euphuism for dowry, but in today's times, wouldn't the average person much rather give the child the money (at an appropriate time of course!) to enable them to pursue their dreams, or help them make a down payment on house (as an example?).

Do note that I am referring to the average middle class person, who slogs away for a large part of his life to put these funds aside. For the very rich of course, splurging on extravagant marriages is something of a showcase of wealth, demonstrating to society at large their spending prowess. But for our average middle class, I can't help but think his hard earned money could be put towards better use?

I raise this question with no intention to poke or bait anyone, or question their choices - I am just trying to get another perspective.

Very valid question and one that crosses every paying parents mind. Because of the society we live in, the expectations we have of ourselves and so many other factors having a simple dignified wedding celebration is a hard act to follow. Desirable but difficult. I have married off all my kids. I wanted a grand celebration for each - it is like the final graduation to life celebration for the kid you love. Not just me, but my kids and their spouse to be wanted a grand affair, as did my mother and the list goes on.

Then there are so many business associates, friends and relatives to invite from both sides that a small affair becomes impossible. People you have known for decades expect to be invited. They invited us to their kids' marriage so you just can't do your kids' marriage in private and say sorry bad luck - maybe you can but I certainly could not. And the marrying couple have their own long list of friends, colleagues and batch mates to invite!

Then there is the pressure from the children and children-in-laws themselves. My mother the sole surviving grand parent had her own expectations. It all adds up. In India the wedding of your kid is a statement it is not another mere event. it is a little bit like you would buy the best house you can afford and not the cheapest house. But I recognize that for several folks it is a great burden. As this is a thread on retirement planning I would advice saving up for your child's wedding. And after all the guests have gone and the bills have been paid to the band baja guys give yourselves a week to recover.

One word of unsought advice - tell your kids to pick spouses with matching value systems & character. That is all that really matters.

[Lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

And after all the guests have gone and the bills have been paid to the band baja guys give yourselves a week to recover.

Well put! Without exaggeration, I would say one must take this suggestion very seriously😊 - the sheer physical and mental exhaustion that parents go through is unbelievable!

[shankar.balan]

Here is a nice, related video about Retirement Planning and FIRE.

https://youtu.be/9dqS2olRQfM?si=GZS-lvJHTN0Qrgoj

[Ananthang]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Here is a nice, related video about Retirement Planning and FIRE.
https://Youtu.be/9dqS2olRQfM?si=GZS-lvJHTN0Qrgoj

Sorry I am confused and lost. So he is asking to adjust all our savings for inflation and unanticipated expenses (which we are all aware and that’s why we have this thread active for sometime now). Now to understand what our routine is, when we hit the corpus - retire and do things which our fathers do now right. Help us, play with grand kids, plan some exercise routine, find something to keep oneself busy until age catches up and worry about medical issues etc. Is he saying not to retire?

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Ananthang

Sorry I am confused and lost. play with grand kids, plan some exercise routine, find something to keep oneself busy until age catches up and worry about medical issues etc. Is he saying not to retire?

The essence is that this FIRE planning and the number per se is unpredictable. (As indeed, all of life itself is.). There is no predictable certainty. At best these are all ‘projections’ and yes, they bring in a positive and good perspective.

However, the same prescription cannot work for everyone, for the reasons mentioned.

And that boredom and atrophy may set in, if, after ‘retirement’, we have nothing more to do.

We may say that in our working lives, we are merely prisoners of the metronomic tyranny of the mundane, but the fact is that a lack of routine and predictability and daily-discipline, one avatar of which, is the perpetual daily work-treadmill, definitely contributes in part, to what keeps us going.

Thats why, earlier on this thread, some of us have advocated that it is very important to cultivate positive hobbies and to be around family and friends after retirement from active service.

[Axe77]

Originally Posted by Lone Ranger

I am quite curious about this felt need to build up funds for "child's marriage".
…
I raise this question with no intention to poke or bait anyone, or question their choices - I am just trying to get another perspective.

Personally, I am definitely saving for my son’s education and my own retirement. I am NOT saving for my son’s wedding. I don’t know IF it will happen or WHEN it will happen and when it does, where and on what scale he would like it to be.

When I got married, I think barring a few nominal gifts, my entire wedding function right to my outfits were self funded. There was no give and take of any sort between the families other than the bare minimum courtesies. My wife’s side sponsored / hosted the wedding ceremony and the lunch afterwards. I sponsored / hosted the reception a few days later. We did have a fair amount of family and friends to invite for the occasion but I kept the list sensible for the wedding since my wife’s family was hosting it (keeping it to closer family and close friends) and expanded my guest list to a lot of wider circle for the reception that I was paying for. I think in some unspoken sense, they had done the same with my reception function. I didn’t have any multitude of pre wedding events like sangeet etc - instead we turned our reception as well into one grand party of cocktails, dinner, music and dance, as well as meeting and greeting everyone. My eldest uncle was delighted because my reception had ensured it had all the extended family and even family friends of decades who’d made it. But it was ONE function - a very nice one too but not a week long juggernaut of party after party which is where people starting pouring money into a bottomless pit.

Having come from a place where I paid for most of my wedding out of my own pocket, I fully expect that if and when my child gets married, the occasion is on a scale that is commensurate to his financial abilities at the time. If his means are modest (or even if they’re better than modest), I will fully support it and contribute to it financially to the extent my savings at the time permit me to - sensibly!

The idea is to create a memorable occasion which stays with you all- and there are many ways of doing that without breaking the bank.

[Chetan_Rao]

A lot of 'retirement discontent' comes from not giving enough importance to understanding distractions Vs. engagement.

Not having to work for a living is a privilege earned after years & years of hard work and prudent saving/investments (assuming no inherited wealth). Not having anything worthwhile to 'engage' oneself once bringing in a paycheck stops being a necessity, is often a choice.

Admittedly, some fall into the latter by circumstance; say, starting off poor with a lot of responsibilities and never quite having time or resources to do anything except keep grinding away to keep up. But quite often, people who can afford to cultivate mentally engaging interests simply don't bother, with the expectation that 'distractions' will fill the void.

Loving and respectful children, grandchildren, same-age friends and exercise all help, but none of those are enough by themselves (or even collectively) to replace the sense of self-worth people lose that they attached to their ability to earn a paycheck, their 'provider' identity.

The most important 'retirement planning' question people need to answer and plan for is: 'If/when I stop bringing in a paycheck, will I feel like I might as well not exist?'

If your answer is 'yes' today, plan now how to change that answer before you actually get to the point of asking the existential question.

Source: spending time speaking to multiple 'retirees' (within extended family and other avenues). All the distractions in the world haven't made up for lack of engagement for most, and most have also fallen victim to a 'too old to change now' state-of-mind.

P.S. Flip side of the coin, those of us with retirees in our homes and around us who seem incorrigible and too far gone down the 'too old to change' path, please be extra kind to them. They need reassurance that they were and are worth more than just a 'provider'. Might seem trivial to you but it can make a huge difference to someone struggling with a lack of self-worth and 'why do I even exist now?' state-of-mind.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Ananthang

Sorry I am confused and lost. So he is asking to adjust all our savings for inflation and unanticipated expenses (which we are all aware and that’s why we have this thread active for sometime now). Now to understand what our routine is, when we hit the corpus - retire and do things which our fathers do now right. Help us, play with grand kids, plan some exercise routine, find something to keep oneself busy until age catches up and worry about medical issues etc. Is he saying not to retire?

Dear @Ananthang,

Those are key questions you are asking. Interestingly my kids and their spouses are in the late 20s early 30s stage of life and have started getting interested, in the last few years, in their own savings and corpus building plans. Speaking for myself I am on the other side of the retirement bridge, successfully I presume. Some advice I give my kids and their spouses may be applicable to the younger generation of members on team BHP.

...most of these consultants add inflation to your future expenses and forget to add it to your income. This leads to preposterously large corpus needs at age 70 and makes the young feel that it is unachievable. So either add inflation on both sides or ignore it on both sides.

...for most of us our biggest earning period is after 45 as you get more senior in your job or more successful in your business. At 55 many would be earning 5X to 7X what they were at 25. Some would be earning 20X or 40X. And this is after accounting for inflation. Of course, there will be exceptions due to ability or bad luck or bad timing.

...life is not simply about the career you pursue from say 22 to 60. There is a lot to do between 60 and 80 be it a second career, be it hobbies, be it giving back to society or whatever floats your boat. If you pursue a second career in whatever area there will be some income from there to help shore up your old age corpus.

...retire early is IMHO a fantasy. Retire early from corporate life, maybe but you can't retire early from life and living and achieving your potential. Going on holidays and treks will fulfill you only so much. A person with some brains {which includes the entire Team BHP reader population} needs a purpose, a routine and commensurate activity. A routine keeps you going especially when troubles and low morale visit you. Only holidays and hobbies could lead to a steady deterioration and boredom IMHO. You ever so slowly lose your reflex skills to get up and go, organize stuff, be alert, be wired into the world and so much more. Metaphorically you need a cause to get up every morning, shave and get out of the house.

...as you can imagine several of my social circle are in their 60s and a 70s. There are some that have made playing golf and vacations literally their sole occupation. Good for them if that's what they like but it will cause them to drift away from the real world, the active world and slowly ever so slowly you get out of touch, get outdated,....you don't notice the drift but others do.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes for your retirement planning & corpus building.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Lone Ranger

Do note that I am referring to the average middle class person, who slogs away for a large part of his life to put these funds aside. For the very rich of course, splurging on extravagant marriages is something...

The thing to consider is that for the wealthy, a lavish wedding will not really strain their finances and will also act to strengthen existing business relationships and networks that will ultimately bring in more benefits down the line.

As with many other things in our society, when it comes to weddings, the wealthy spend well, but well within their means, the professional/salaried class extend themselves, the poor get into debt.

Whether it's worth doing that for an event that the couple barely remembers 5 years later, is something each family probably needs to think more about.

[hothatchaway]

Dear Sir, I felt some of the points to be contradictory.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Very valid question and one that crosses every paying parents mind. Because of the society we live in, the expectations we have of ourselves and so many other factors having a simple dignified wedding celebration is a hard act to follow. Desirable but difficult. I have married off all my kids. I wanted a grand celebration for each - it is like the final graduation to life celebration for the kid you love. Not just me, but my kids and their spouse to be wanted a grand affair, as did my mother and the list goes on.

On one hand you say that there is societal pressure, on the other you contradict yourself by saying you wanted a grand shebang. I think its ok to be candid and admit to the latter.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

One word of unsought advice - tell your kids to pick spouses with matching value systems & character. That is all that really matters.

- wholeheartedly agree