[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@sawyer; My CA tells me that married ladies depositing up to 2L are covered, under the 'streedhan' clause and there will be no queries. This is accumulated savings from household expenses, exactly what you mention.

Now I am confused; aren't they covered anyway, because of the 2.5 lakhs limit?

But how are they covered by now having their husband and saas know about this: see my earlier post #1029 of today on the subject.
By the way, the article that provided me with the insight of the women angle was headlined: "Wealthy Women come out of the closet" and is very interesting reading in today's Times of India. Where that article falls short is in not realising that the situation could apply to ALL married women in India, whether their accumulation is above or below 2.5 lakhs.
PS: It is better to not read todays TOI - the Pune/Mumbai edition at any rate. It scared the s*#t out of me, I am not kidding you; I am not referring to news items, but some analytical pieces written by some eminent thinkers. Let us just pray that these people don't know what they are saying.

[ecenandu]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Good observation; but one that is going to resonate with very few that are posting here, I am afraid. There are many more things happening on these lines all over the country, but this forum isn't the place to discuss these, I have realised. But don't let that discourage you.

I think most of us, here are forgetting the bigger picture. The pain caused by this move is mainly felt by the poor and they constitute a large percentage of India. These people are the one who will bear the brunt, but will the advantages it offers in the future be palpable for them.

If the main objective of this move was to catch the black money hoarders,
in my opinion, with the kind of collateral damage, definitely not worth it.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by ecenandu

The pain caused by this move is mainly felt by the poor and they constitute a large percentage of India. These people are the one who will bear the brunt, but will the advantages it offers in the future be palpable for them.

Let me say that we have three maids. None have cribbed about a cash crunch. Talking to friends we must have checked about at least twenty domestics. None cribbed or asked for any advance either. Only in one case there was a bit of regret, more about her 3000 in large notes. Someone told her that the money is now worthless paper. She worked for a retired bank manager and he exchanged the currency. Also, none of them have complained about any relatives in the villages having problems. Remember the bartr system is still alive in the villages. In fact most of them are happy that the rich are in the same queue as them.

I am sure there are some, but am still to hear from my immediate surroundings.

[Sawyer]

One of the biggest lessons from History is that lessons from History are never learned. So history repeats itself, over and over.

For some very interesting reading on this subject see:
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/b.../1/434170.html
An article written in 1978 after the last demonetisation! Deja Vu.

Some illuminating comments in it as well as after the end of it; having been an adult at the time, I haven't forgotten all that happened then, so it is doubly interesting.

One reason why I am very puzzled at is what I see as misplaced rage. The reason for black money to exist starts with government making dishonest use of the taxes it collects. Why isn't there the rage at the government then, the root cause for this phenomenon, and something that has been known at least since 1978? Why is honesty expected only from citizens and not from the government that forces citizens into dishonesty? Only one side is expected to uphold the contract?

[ecenandu]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I am sure there are some, but am still to hear from my immediate surroundings.

Yes sir, I understand but anecdotal evidences can't be generalized, right. The government of India has decided yesterday to send 27 teams to check the ground reality, will give them a clear picture.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Why is honesty expected only from citizens and not from the government that forces citizens into dishonesty? Only one side is expected to uphold the contract?

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel?

Tunnel! , oh wait, its a torus.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by ecenandu

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel?

Tunnel! , oh wait, its a torus.

We can always laugh, right, it is free and not taxable. Not being a techie I had to google Torus. But I know a different answer to the same question:
No, it is the headlight of an oncoming train speeding at you on your track!

[TorqMaster]

So ,

If there is a tourist or an NRI visiting India what should he or she do for liquid cash? For the option of converting the dollars, would cash be given in return?

Any procedures or methods would be educative.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by TorqMaster

So ,

If there is a tourist or an NRI visiting India what should he or she do for liquid cash? For the option of converting the dollars, would cash be given in return?

Any procedures or methods would be educative.

Aren't money exchange facilities like Western Union etc. doling out new Indian Currency in exchange for your foreign currency? I thought they must be. Otherwise your planned vacation to India right now has just become your life's biggest nightmare. Also most foreigner's are used to plastic money and I guess they must make use of that for most of their time here. On the other hand during my visit to the bank last week, there were a group of Chinese tourists ( saw their passports) who had all come to exchange old currency with new one.

The second thing I am surprised at is that people here, I believe most of them are salaried IT guys, are still not ready to believe that old currency is easily being converted into new one at a percentage. If not today, then in the near future, you will come to realize that nothing has changed and all this effort and hardship faced is in vain.

[TorqMaster]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

facilities like Western Union etc. doling out new Indian Currency in exchange for your foreign currency?

Sorry my friend , I have no idea about it nor have I used it in the past. I hope this turns out to be true and useful for someone travelling to India.

Is prepaid cash cards a possible option? Like depositing $$ ( any currency) in a bank, say HDFC, and loading it in a prepaid card (according to the exchange rate) which can only be swiped but cannot be used in an ATM to withdraw money. Having said that it would be difficult to manage without liquid cash, for example taking an auto rickshaw to roam around or any place where cards aren't accepted.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by TorqMaster

Sorry my friend , I have no idea about it nor have I used it in the past. I hope this turns out to be true and useful for someone travelling to India.

Is prepaid cash cards a possible option? Like depositing $$ ( any currency) in a bank, say HDFC, and loading it in a prepaid card (according to the exchange rate) which can only be swiped but cannot be used in an ATM to withdraw money. Having said that it would be difficult to manage without liquid cash, for example taking an auto rickshaw to roam around or any place where cards aren't accepted.

I agree there would be a huge amount of hardships being faced by such people. But then what can we say. At a time when the citizen of the country is facing so much trouble, I do not see anyone doing anything to help this minuscule group. The one's who have pre-booked and pre-paid arrangements will enjoy, the ones with plastic money will too and the others can at best cut short their trip and leave. Or might also be possible that many places might accept the older currency from such genuine foreign tourists at an exchange rate.

[VKumar]

Well, everyone has his/her own views over this demonetization done by our government but IMHO the right thing is done in an utterly wrong way. They say they will give money and facilities to poor; I agree. What is the value of that money and facilities if the sole bread earner of a family is unable to earn his daily wages as of now or a poor child loses his/her life inside a hospital due to the lack of money?

Come guys, grab a seat and allow this poor contractor to show you the grim reality:

• We have sites in NCR mainly with some more parts of UP, Haryana and Uttarakhand. Now as of today the status is that except one site of ours which is about to be handed over; we are unable to carry out a single activity anywhere. Why? Daily wages laborers and we have no money left with us to pay their daily wages. Our daily payout in form of wages only is in six figures; money is in bank and the cash we have with us is in the scrapped denominations. As of today I am left with not even 2000 rupees in my pocket, we are managing the daily wages or some small funds for workers by taking money at 12% monthly interest from the local finance guys as of now; just to make sure that these families get their daily bread. What is my fault? What is the fault of these men who are facing cash and food crunch now?
  
• Change of season and everyone knows it's the time when throat infections, allergies etc hit the hardest. We are all privileged to have proper HVAC etc in our houses and offices but poor aren't. Here someone was talking about doctors; let me tell the grim reality of our well earning doctors too (BTW my cousin's father in law has operated his OPD for free for 2 days). I got to know of this laborer whose child is admitted in hospital but no treatment is being provided. The reason is that hospital guys also want someone to stand on their heads with an oiled bamboo stick to make them accept those notes. Anyone in tatters and they conveniently tell the person to get lost. Doctors could have helped in this case but the also select to come out of their shiny Honda City and get inside the OPD without paying attention to anything. BTW how many here take the fee receipt from doctors while they go for consultation? That's the black money which goes to builders and contractors later for making properties after all.
  
• There was a truck carrying some serious costing transformers and electric panels which I had to install in a power house in rural areas for making it functional ASAP (Near Kotdwar in Uttarakhand). Now this truck was parked near a toll plaza in the outskirts of Lucknow with driver simply telling me that the truck is broken down and he has no money to pay (BTW some would have seen the video of a poor truck driver being brutally beaten by toll plaza guys somewhere because he was not willing to pay the toll that is exempted by the govt., another example is Haryana UP border near Kairana where the tolls were being forcefully taken till truckers jammed the highway). Now I had to take my truck all the way over 500 kms away and get everything loaded in it (Hydra operator charged me 4000 bucks for just 1:30 hours of work) to get it back to the site. Why government isn't looking to this grim reality?
  
• Supply chain is already broken, provisions are quiclky depleting, 4.5 million loaded trucks are waiting roadside with the drivers carrying enough of scrapped money but now since anyone can change from only his/her bank; where will these guys go?

IMO it was just a knee jerk and unplanned action taken with a thought that people will co-operate but now it has somehow started backfiring. Men sitting in power or the MPs who say "I have taken cash from bank today" don't even know how long is the line outside the banks (Today is Sunday). Anyhow, what is done is done and I don't advocate taking the steps back but I am not satisfied either; not even 10%. Most of the black money is already adjusted and remaining will be done will 31st of December, who is actually suffering is known to all.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Come guys, grab a seat and allow this poor contractor to show you the grim reality:

I feel for you my friend; unfortunately, all I can say is that things will have to get much worse before they start getting better; grit your teeth and hold on. These are just the first order effects you are feeling because you are exposed, being near the front edge of the economy and no one knows how long they will last. In some ways this is a battle, and the front line soldiers are the first casualties. Unlike for a battle though, there are intimate but hidden linkages running across the entire economy, and in this battle, in time, all will get hit, with second and third order effects depending on where they are located in the economy, and even generals will not be left unscathed.

What has happened at one stroke is that the river of cash circulating in the economy has overnight been deprived of over 80% of its content and flow - it isn't as if a stagnant hoard that played no part in economic activity has been sterilised in a surgical strike as some would like to imagine. Slowly that flow is being replaced but for every replacement that happens, having it flow as before will take time to take effect. And for the replacement of all 80% of the flow to work its way into the economy and take effect will take a lot longer than for 80% of the currency to be replaced. People seem to have faith that the other flow of money - paperless - will see the economy and them through; I don't have that faith. The foundation of the Indian economy is still visible cash.

To use an auto analogy, when a running car is braked to 15% of its speed, and once the brakes are released, the old speed doesn't automatically come back; the kinetic energy has been forever lost to friction and heat. It takes a lot of fuel and effort for that to happen, and time. And in this case, the brakes release itself isn't overnight as the braking was; it will take anywhere from 50 days to 6 months going by the various differing views on the subject.

[earthian]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Come guys, grab a seat and allow this poor contractor ..

Ok, shall give my full attention to you....

We have sites in NCR mainly with some more parts of UP, Haryana and Uttarakhand.

Seems you are not so "poor" then. Maybe you used it as a figure of speech maybe?

...and we have no money left with us to pay their daily wages.

I would have thought that being such a big enterprise, you would have followed the provisions laid down by the labour laws and ensured payment to the labourers as per provisions contained therein. Normally payment to such "contract" labour would be given once a month, depending upon hours/days worked.

Our daily payout in form of wages only is in six figures

There you go. A big enterprise. And it seems that you need to hire better managers, And ensure legal compliance too.

As of today I am left with not even 2000 rupees in my pocket

That's a shame. Hopefully you have credit and debit cards, i am sure?

We are all privileged to have proper HVAC etc in our houses and offices...

Now i am sure that when you used the word "poor" to describe yourself it was just a figure of speech and probably since you were feeling sorry for yourself.

Now I had to take my truck all the way over 500 kms away and get everything loaded in it

Please hire some good assistants. I am sure you can afford it. There could have been better ways to get that transformer moving from Lucknow.

IMO it was just a knee jerk and unplanned action taken with a thought that people will co-operate but now it has somehow started backfiring.

It has not started backfiring, but some elements are trying their damnedest to paint a scenario that it has.

Most of the black money is already adjusted and remaining will be done will 31st of December....

Well, you seem to have the advantage over me here. I don't have this (privy) information.

The Government is trying to remove black wealth from the economy. This seems to be the first step. It is a good move. I asked all the people who work for me and none of them wanted any money. I am not a corporate. Neither a company. Nor a big employer. Just a wanderer with maybe 5 people who help my wife and i live a easier and more comfortable life.
How is it then that we get such conflicting views? The highest salary in our household staff is Rs 12,000 per month. Not exactly what the Chairman of a large conglomerate makes, but he seems cool. And eager to play his part in the salvo against black money.
Why don't we all, i wonder?

Just talked to one small contractor who has about 120 people working for him. He said that he required about Rs 9 lacs per month for wages (depending upon manpower used) and he credits the amount directly to the bank accounts of the daily wagers working for him. He confirms that labourers are paid as per the daily wage declared by the State government, but as is the practice they are paid once a month.
I think it is about time we stop using the "poor" as a convenient excuse to derail this move by the Government. If you are inconvenienced in what ever manner, have the courage to mention it upfront.

Edit: 16:30 pm: Again talked to another contractor. This one operates diesel and petrol tankers. Most of these tankers are outsourced and the tankers are owned by individuals, mostly the drivers themselves. He says there is a slowdown, but not that the tankers are off the roads. He says that these drivers have Fuel cards and since toll is not levied, working capital is not such a big headache as is being made out. If the tanker develops a snag, the driver would have to draw out money from his account. He adds that most of these tankers ply a regular route and hence are quite well known to the stakeholders in the business such as hotels (dhabas), repair shops and such. Yes, it is difficult, but not such a big deal as is being made out.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by earthian

Well, you seem to have the advantage over me here. I don't have this (privy) information.

Its not so privy afterall. I posted the same 3 days back here: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post4094253

And this is going on from 8:30 pm onwards, 8th November 2016. Only the rates climbed from initial 10% to now 40%. Infact the last couple of days they have come down to 30% again as most people have already converted and the touts are decreasing the rates.

You must have atleast seen the news channels. Dollar and pound were sold at Rs. 150. Gold till 57k.

My point is simple. Black money is not going anywhere, atleast not with just this one measure. You can argue all you want but I am sorry to break your bubble. This conversion is out in the open. Not some covert secret operation available to only Ambanis.

I am not against the move. In fact I use my card extensively and hence I haven't really faced any problem except when twice my car got punctured in this last week and I had to tender change. But all I am trying to say is that do not become blind in your support and in this nationalist wave going on. One of the BHPians in Delhi panicked when he could not get medicines from a chemist shop since they refused to accept old currency and his card too. And don't make me get started on the medicines in government hospital chemist shops. I work in a government hospital and I know the state of those. But regardless we are all doing out bit and facing this with a smile and hope. The only small issue is that the government didn't think of this through and left too many loopholes to allow money laundering which then makes this whole exercise pointless.

[carwatcher]

This is as dramatic a post as I have ever seen in few news media.

I don't think we have many people who are as 'poor' as you in India, maybe few Lacs if not thousands. If we have many than we surely have become 'Sone ki Chidiya'.

Just by making some arrangement with some wholesaler or big shopkeeper whom you could make payment via bank for groceries would've been enough to help your labour getting their daily bread and saved yourself from arranging for some cash. If you can't find any and get loan at such high rate also indicates how 'poor' you claim to be.

Originally Posted by VKumar

Come guys, grab a seat and allow this poor contractor to show you the grim reality: