[mayankk]

Originally Posted by SDP

Can you please elaborate what would be the correct way?
Are you talking about just widening the tax-net or the broader demonetization with its multi-pronged objectives?

I'm, unfortunately, ill qualified to even think of suggesting the correct way. It's why I vote. So that sensible, non draconian policies will be thought of by better minds.
What I do know is that a more substantial amount of the supposed black money is not in the form of cash. What is in cash is a lot of personal saving. These guys have basically put an entire country in disarray for brownie points. Probably the outcome of having an unelected finance minister.

[earthian]

Originally Posted by mayankk

What I do know is that a more substantial amount of the supposed black money is not in the form of cash. What is in cash is a lot of personal saving. These guys have basically put an entire country in disarray for brownie points. Probably the outcome of having an unelected finance minister.

Here we go again. Well, it is not rocket science and quite a few know that the estimated quantum of black cash in the entire black wealth would be to the tune of 6-10%. And these are estimates and please don't ask me how these estimates have been derived, for the excellent reason that i don't know.

Please hang on till tomorrow evening. I trust that the PM and his Ministers, be they elected or not, do have some idea about what next steps to be taken. And i am confident that they shall have the determination, commitment and the chutzpa to go ahead with them.

While it is good to have an opinion, and necessary to have a contrary one at times, what could be avoided is unnecessary bias.

And i am not spoiling for a fight or argument.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by earthian

Here we go again. Well, it is not rocket science and quite a few know that the estimated quantum of black cash in the entire black wealth would be to the tune of 6-10%. And these are estimates and please don't ask me how these estimates have been derived, for the excellent reason that i don't know

Hi. Pure common sense would indicate that ignoring the 94% to go after the 6% sort of validates the lack of will, does it not. I'm not Mr evil under an extinct volcano here, but if I was a part of the 94%, I would be amply forewarned with the November 8 decision and moved everything to where it's untouchable by now.

[earthian]

Originally Posted by mayankk

Hi. Pure common sense would indicate that ignoring the 94% to go after the 6% sort of validates the lack of will, does it not. I'm not Mr evil under an extinct volcano here, but if I was a part of the 94%, I would be amply forewarned with the November 8 decision and moved everything to where it's untouchable by now.

Hi.
You got that wrong. When i referred to 6-10%, i clearly mentioned that quantum of black cash, in the black wealth.

the estimated quantum of black cash in the entire black wealth would be to the tune of 6-10%.

And hence the 94% balance black wealth would not be ignored. ( It is only my conviction speaking, not any privy knowledge) Next in line would be properties, where sizeable black wealth is buried. Gold and p-notes would also get their due, only i don't know when or how?
This Government has embarked on a one way street, where stopping, slowing, or turning back are not options.

Unless the black wealth has come back into legitimate business by a circular route through Mauritius or other such places, it would be ultimately ferreted out. Assuming of course, that the Government still has the Will and the means.

It all boils down to whether one has faith in the PM and the Government or not. i know that our experience with all the Governments till date has been that they couldn't wipe their derriere after a dump, but then hope springs eternal.

[poloman]

Originally Posted by mayankk

These guys have basically put an entire country in disarray for brownie points. Probably the outcome of having an unelected finance minister.

But we had an unelected PM for over 10 years. Please leave the politics aside for a moment and think. You don't have any single solution in sight to tackle the black money issue and still think this is a bad step. Obviously this is not a step which pleases all or solves every problem the country faces today. But steps like these are thousand times better than looting the country's resources or bringing more and more reservation or doling out freebies in the name of vote bank politics. This chalta hai attitude is the biggest problem in our country. We can have world leaders like Pichai and Nadella but only if you cross our country's borders. We don't need Harvard graduates or Nobel laureates to run this country. Just common sense and a insatiable will to do something for the country.
The Karnataka govt is in deep trouble, so what you do. Ask every private company in the state to implement 100% reservation for son of the soil. Which one these steps do you think will harm the country on a longer term?

If Modi has put people in deep disarray as you think how can he score brownie point at the same time. Karma will catch up with him right?

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by poloman

But we had an unelected PM for over 10 years. Please leave the politics aside for a moment and think. You don't have any single solution in sight to tackle the black money issue and still think this is a bad step. ?

Again, not my job to think up of a solution. All I'm complaining about is people elected this pm under the impression that it'll be a better solution than one that throws the baby out with the water. Having an opinion and voicing it does not imply that one has to have a better solution in hand. I shudder to think of what the New Year address will bring.

Agree about the karma bit, though.

[poloman]

Originally Posted by mayankk

Again, not my job to think up of a solution. All I'm complaining about is people elected this pm under the impression that it'll be a better solution than one that throws the baby out with the water. Having an opinion and voicing it does not imply that one has to have a better solution in hand. I shudder to think of what the New Year address will bring.

Agree about the karma bit, though.

No one is muzzling your opinion in this country. But you need to give alternate solutions to back up your theory that there are better ways to tackle corruption.
If you see history of elections in India. The one thing Indian electorate won't tolerate is serious corruption charges. Every govt with such charges whether it is a central or state has been voted out. So the jury on this move is still not out. Many think that the person who is seen standing in that queue is going to vote out the govt which may not happen at all. This govt atleast seems to act against corruption. This is the widespread message one is getting from the ground.
On the other hand the electorate reward decisive leaders. MMS won again in 2008 was due to this feeling. He took a clear stand on nuclear deal when everyone in studios and media made fun of him. But people were clearly with him on that. If you have followed US elections last year, you will know people's mood is exactly opposite to what is being portrayed in main stream media,

[tsk1979]

The only proven effect of this circus till now has been bailing out banks with my hard earned money. I feel as if a bunch of crookes have hoodwinked me. Yes wait and watch.. yada yada. They have a plan.. yada yada. Its all speculative. Only thing proven is my money being used to bail out banks.

[MDED]

Effective January 1, 2017 all ATM users can withdraw upto Rs 4500 from the ATMs. Latest update by RBI.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

The only proven effect of this circus till now has been bailing out banks with my hard earned money. I feel as if a bunch of crookes have hoodwinked me. Yes wait and watch.. yada yada. They have a plan.. yada yada. Its all speculative. Only thing proven is my money being used to bail out banks.

Being a banker myself, I completely agree with what you feel. In developed economies the government doesn't interfere in banking sector. If a bank wants to open and run their business, they need to just comply with the basic guidelines of the land and up they go and in case the same bank goes bust, the government maintains the line of "you grow on your own and you die on your own".

India being traditionally conservative economy and society and markets being run on emotions, the government can't afford to allow any bank to capsize, thus funding the banks to bail them from the mess. The last example was Global Trust Bank being merged with Oriental Bank of Commerce in 2004. GTB was a private sector bank and OBC a Public Sector Bank and nobody wanted to take over the reins of GTB, then the GOI and RBI had merged it with OBC. Some may ask the rationale behind this decision.
The central idea was to ensure that the account holders and the investors do not loose their money and most importantly the faith in the banking system.

The moot point here is, are we as a society gone past over hard emotions? IMHO the answer is a big NO and hence these bailouts of banks would continue for a prolonged period. Some politicians misuse the banking sector and the entire country has to bear the brunt of it.
Not to forget the poor bankers doing the donkey job of getting abuses from their masters and customers alike.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by mayankk

All I'm complaining about is people elected this pm under the impression that it'll be a better solution than one that throws the baby out with the water. Having an opinion and voicing it does not imply that one has to have a better solution in hand. I shudder to think of what the New Year address will bring.

I generally agree with your posts and here too, I am. Just agreeing, though I can write pages on the matter on similar lines with full blown statistics, I don't want to create an unnecessary debate where the inherent opinions shall always remain.

Originally Posted by mayankk

What I do know is that a more substantial amount of the supposed black money is not in the form of cash. What is in cash is a lot of personal saving. These guys have basically put an entire country in disarray for brownie points. Probably the outcome of having an unelected finance minister.

True, again I'm not going to reference any party or any person of any party.. I'm apolitical but as the situation stands, its ugly and unfair.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

The only proven effect of this circus till now has been bailing out banks with my hard earned money. I feel as if a bunch of crookes have hoodwinked me. Yes wait and watch.. yada yada. They have a plan.. yada yada. Its all speculative. Only thing proven is my money being used to bail out banks.

Yep, no direct benefit so far and I can only shudder to imagine the consequences if banks are cash rich. Those who're going to come after me saying loans will be cheaper.. well why are loans taken in the first place??

Originally Posted by MDED

Effective January 1, 2017 all ATM users can withdraw upto Rs 4500 from the ATMs. Latest update by RBI.

WOW!! All our troubles are over!

Originally Posted by MDED

Being a banker myself, I completely agree with what you feel. The moot point here is, are we as a society gone past over hard emotions? IMHO the answer is a big NO and hence these bailouts of banks would continue for a prolonged period. Some politicians misuse the banking sector and the entire country has to bear the brunt of it.
Not to forget the poor bankers doing the donkey job of getting abuses from their masters and customers alike.

I agree, and I also understand that the bankers were thrown into the line of fire both ways and I've personally witnessed many customers simply erupting at the branches. This is what happens when there's a gap of understanding between those who make the policies and those that have to implement them. Tough times for bank employees whose only fault is that they're dealing in a much sought-after commodity today the supply of which isn't upto them at all.

[nowwhat?]

Originally Posted by poloman

No one is muzzling your opinion in this country. But you need to give alternate solutions to back up your theory that there are better ways to tackle corruption.

Agree with you. If anyone has better solutions, they should voice it out.

Like many (all?) others here, I was blindsided when demonetization was announced, but I am coping with it as best as I can. Ranting and raving takes us nowhere.

Originally Posted by poloman

If you see history of elections in India. The one thing Indian electorate won't tolerate is serious corruption charges.

We Indians are the laziest bums around -- We want our locality to be as clean as Parc du Bourget in Lausanne, Switzerland, but we will not lift a finger for cleanliness.

'Tis true what they say, you go to an Indian's home in India, it will be mindbogglingly clean, but outside will be filth. You go to an American home (someone who recently graduated from college), outside will be clean, inside will be full of filth.

We tolerated our filthy leaders. It's high time we Indians drove the filth out everywhere.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

The only proven effect of this circus till now has been bailing out banks with my hard earned money. I feel as if a bunch of crookes have hoodwinked me. Yes wait and watch.. yada yada. They have a plan.. yada yada. Its all speculative. Only thing proven is my money being used to bail out banks.

Banks haven't earned a paise out of whatever you paid, they had to put all of their deposits into Market Stabilization Bonds. Whatever are you on about? India was never even close to anything like the 2008 financial crisis. NPAs are there, even a guy like Mallya knows he will have to donate blood to survive.

Originally Posted by MDED

India being traditionally conservative economy and society and markets being run on emotions, the government can't afford to allow any bank to capsize, thus funding the banks to bail them from the mess. The last example was Global Trust Bank being merged with Oriental Bank of Commerce in 2004. GTB was a private sector bank and OBC a Public Sector Bank and nobody wanted to take over the reins of GTB, then the GOI and RBI had merged it with OBC. Some may ask the rationale behind this decision.
The central idea was to ensure that the account holders and the investors do not loose their money and most importantly the faith in the banking system.

The moot point here is, are we as a society gone past over hard emotions? IMHO the answer is a big NO and hence these bailouts of banks would continue for a prolonged period. Some politicians misuse the banking sector and the entire country has to bear the brunt of it.
Not to forget the poor bankers doing the donkey job of getting abuses from their masters and customers alike.

There are two things being confabulated here. Firstly, if the nationalization did NOT occur earlier, our banking sector would have been more strong than what it is right now. I mean, think about it, back then all of the major industries were nationalized in one fell swoop. It's sorta something like Airtel, Reliance, Infosys, TCS all being taken over in one swoop.

GTB, OBC, IOB, UCO, they have all being using the governments's name to further their own nefarious activities. Even the Iranians have had to run so hard to take their own money from our so-called nationalized banks after the US ended the oil embargo.

The only way forward of all these small banks merge and we have a few PSU banks (and many private banks) that grow cojones and stand up to successive governments. The writing's on the wall.

[poloman]

Originally Posted by MDED

Being a banker myself, I completely agree with what you feel. In developed economies the government doesn't interfere in banking sector. If a bank wants to open and run their business, they need to just comply with the basic guidelines of the land and up they go and in case the same bank goes bust, the government maintains the line of "you grow on your own and you die on your own".

Surprised to hear this from a banker. No country whether developed or non developed can let its banking system to collapse. Whether it is US crisis in 2008 or lately the crisis in Italian banking sector, the govt will step in to save the sector. Unlike other sectors, here money of lakhs of public is involved. Withdrawl limits is one thing, vanishing your entire money in bank is another thing.
About politicians misusing the banking system, again I find this amusing. Why allow yourself to be misused by the strongmen and middlemen? The wad of new 2000 notes floating around is another example for the connivance of cash hungry bank men.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by MDED

Effective January 1, 2017 all ATM users can withdraw upto Rs 4500 from the ATMs. Latest update by RBI.

This was announced near the outset but for the intervention of 'currency mules' would have stayed there. Also, the need to recalibrate ATMs due to the different currency size (and also thickness) was obviously not anticipated. I expect progressive relaxation in the drawal limit as well.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by nowwhat?

There are two things being confabulated here. Firstly, if the nationalization did NOT occur earlier, our banking sector would have been more strong than what it is right now. I mean, think about it, back then all of the major industries were nationalized in one fell swoop. It's sorta something like Airtel, Reliance, Infosys, TCS all being taken over in one swoop.

Actually, your comparison of banking sector with TCS/Infosys is not correct. It is true the if banks were not nationalized in the 70s, they would have become lot stronger. My dad was in the bank then and he has many times told me the difference before and after nationalization. But if the private banks become too strong, it is bad news for the country. The loyalty of any private companies is towards the shareholders, and not towards the country or citizens. Their primary purpose is to maximize profit, which rarely overlaps with the social welfare programs of the government. Powerful banks can offer resistance to every social welfare program, and encourage only highly profitable schemes. Then banks would behave like VCs. The poorer segments like agriculture, handicrafts, etc., would never receive any finance. If they did, the interest rates would be very high.

On the other hand, private ownership of IT companies doesn't harm social welfare.

Originally Posted by nowwhat?

The only way forward of all these small banks merge and we have a few PSU banks (and many private banks) that grow cojones and stand up to successive governments. The writing's on the wall.

Nope, nothing is on the wall. Commercial Banks are as important as any public infrastructure. If roads were only built by private companies, none of the villages will have roads. Government, which is elected by the people, has to retain firm control over the banks. Otherwise greed will take over. We have seen what happened in US once Glass-Steagall act was diluted.

Frankly, I don't like to do business with nationalized banks. They are inefficient, their services are slow, their netbanking sucks, etc. I prefer to use private banks for my business and individual needs. But I also know that majority of citizens (who are poor) are served by nationalized banks, because private banks primarily target businesses and richer clients.

[MDED]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Frankly, I don't like to do business with nationalized banks. They are inefficient, their services are slow, their netbanking sucks, etc. I prefer to use private banks for my business and individual needs. But I also know that majority of citizens (who are poor) are served by nationalized banks, because private banks primarily target businesses and richer clients.

Yes, in earlier days doing business with a public sector bank was a herculean task and required lot of patinece for doing a single transaction. Now, things have changed and with the Government being the majority shareholder in these banks, they are demanding profitability and accountability from banks. If the bank is showing healthy performance and good recovery measures, performance in government sponsored programs then such banks are getting preferential capital allotment to meet their basel requirements. I would request you to use the net banking of banks like SBI, IDBI, Canara Bank which have spruced up and embraced technological advancements and are no less than their private sector peers. Banking is all about building relationship and trust. The Institute of Banking and Personnel Selection (IBPS), the apex institution conducting examination on behalf of Public Sector Banks (PSB) for recruitment of officers in the scale of I, II and III are recruiting the best young officers for manning the branches of PSBs. These young officers bring along with them the exuberance of youth and the zeal to do their duty dilligently unlike their erstwhile peers. Hence, if you visit any PSB you will definitely see young officers in every branch busy with customers and even visiting customers outside the branch at their respective homes and providing doorstep services.
You might have had bad experience at one of the branch, but things have changed and with greater focus on improving customer service, generating and imporving Savings Account and Current Account business of the Banks, everybody have pulled up their socks for better and effective service delivery.