[pathik@2020]

This is a topic that resonates with me. During the lockdown so as to utlise time better and for exposure to something new, I had enrolled my 10 year old to White Hat Jr. coding course. While my son did well, post 6 months he did not evince interest in continuing and I let it end there. My parenting philosophy is to expose my child to different fields / experiences from where he can draw his interests to pursue in the future. Therefore after the basic course we did not go ahead to the next module. Before the 6 month course ended - White Hat Jr. was acquired by Byju's. And then the constant calls started for renewing. First it was a polite enquiry and it was followed by insistence which at first I took to be a sign of a desperate salesman. I myself have spent considerable number of years in sales and I sympathised with the caller and hung up. However, it escalated to an extent that they almost started calling my child a failure and me a bad parent for not enrolling him to the next module. I finally got rid of the calls only after threatening them with a police report.

So I am not surprised that the company is taking on water. No company can survive without a good repurchase and the only way to get there is satisfied customers. To identify the one thing that the company does / can do way better than all available options to customers and consistently deliver on it. Explicit fear-mongering can never be a consistent way to get business.

I surely feel bad for those who now feel conned after paying exorbitant fees. Byju's has ended up with so much bad press and disgruntled customers that I will not be surprised if investors start writing off this investment.

[car-go]

While we are discussing Byju's, I want to draw attention to two other such startups with whom I had a few interactions (I have a 8 yrs old daughter):

(I am neither here trying prove if they are right or wrong, but wanted to keep the flow of information on, in case it benefits in any way)

a. planetspark - I and my wife were interested to see if anyone provide oration skills to kids (given similar interests in my daughter some time back). Reached out to planetspark online. They provide a very structured routine of giving such exposure and learnings for kids, however I somehow felt that it would be too engaging (and possibly another sort of burden) for my kid, given the timings, especially given how much time kids get to play after coming back from school. They are trial plans, EMI options, etc, given the the charges are high. My daughter attended two demo classes. First one was good and interactive. Second one - someone from sales joined and tried desperately to convince me and my wife to get in. I was struggling to understand how my daughter would be able to manage her time and weekends (no play?!) At last, the sales person tried convincing my daughter (then 6.5 yrs) that she should take her own decision and coax us to do the classes!
Multiple follow up calls from them, and my answer was only that my daughter needs some time to play, and to have a good night's sleep.

b. bhanzu - Supposedly started by a maths prodigy, this was actively advertised through my daughter's school. The first demo class where my daughter's classmates also joined - they talked at length about the prodigy, awards he got, etc. (However, the person himself did not show up; may be my expectation was unfair) Then the representative started demo'ing how a typical multiplication can be done more easily that traditional methods taught in class. My daughter though got a bit confused as she was just learning long multiplications. I realized that it's important for her to learn straight from the school books for now, while she can later explore such techniques as she grows up. I myself taught maths (including vedic maths) as well to other kids in not so distant past, however I felt something was not right. When I questioned during the session on the technique being applicable to a kid, the representative told me that they will reveal better (and actual) techniques during actual classes!
I got warned. Multiple follow up calls again, but to their vain.

[naikameya]

Originally Posted by d.w.w.

I agree on the unfair business ethics, but I disagree on this point. The problem here is every kid is unique and each of them have their unique styles to learn. What byjus did was to come up with one-size-fits-all solution which works for only a fraction of the kids, a fraction that was not enough to bring revenues they were expecting. My wife is into teaching and according to her the materials that they provide is very good, but only for the right student. (My BIL fell in the trap during covid, they no longer use it and he ships the materials to us now. I went through some and found it to be good) When byjus realized this mistake, they tried to exploit parents by selling false dreams and many fell for it.

You have pulled out a small portion of the quote out of context. Even school textbooks are the same for everyone. Good teachers make the effort to help pace it according to the individual.
But what I said was about pushing it to gullible people, for kids for whom it is not applicable. The gullible parents are sold dreams in unethical ways. Just because a few kids can understand quantum physics does not mean one should be selling it to all parents that it will make their kid a noble prize winner. It has nothing to do with the quality of the material.

I end here.

[bvasista]

Maybe a bit off topic but this topic of sales persons trying to push/sell their products, convincing/confusing customers if they do or do not need it - reminds me of this movie - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velaikkaran_(2017_film)

[Tassem]

I have a bit of a controversial view here and may only apply to a minority or not apply to anyone at all and may just be my view. And this may not just be limited to Indian parents, but in my personal experience, I've seen it here the most.

We all want our kids to do what we couldn't. We want them to find the successes we didn't or did. So we make them do things we hadn't or couldn't. I'm a parent to an 8 year old. And at times, I've caught myself doing this too. So I'm not doodh ka dhula hua either.

But I've never really seen many parents talk about what their kid will do when he/she grows up as much as I see it here. Nor have I seen such widespread competition between parents. I see it in school, parents groups, almost everywhere. WhiteHat Jr did not just sell to gullible parents. They sold to parents who wanted their 5 yr olds to learn coding. Were they right? Ethically, no. Morally, no. But from a business perspective, they identified a segment and catered to it. Simple.

Personally I've never wished bad for any company. But I remember when I heard about what they were doing, I said that they wont last long. I said the same thing when Byju's acquired them. That they're just accepting themselves for who they are by aligning with a company like Whitehat Jr. I had very close contacts in both companies at the time.

So Byju's may bite the dust. But will this stop? Nope. The names will change, the products will change but the idea remains the same. Allow parents to compete via their children. Create a deficit and then fill it.

In the early nineties, a door to door salesman convinced my dad that what I needed to surge ahead in life was a full set of World Book Encyclopaedia accompanied by another set of Childcraft books and another set of Young Scientist books. At the time, they cost about 6K AED.

I was maybe 10. The young scientist was perfect for my age, but Childcraft was way too junior for me and The World Book was a bit too advanced. But I loved it. I loved every bit of every book and read every page of the whole damn set. I used to read a lot and this just took it to the next level. But looking back now, that guy knew damn well that a large part of the product he sold to my dad was irrelevant. But he did it. My dad wanted the best for me so he bought it without thinking much. And luckily in this case, I benefitted.

But these days if someone tells you to invest 50k in books, not many would. A snazzy tablet with some colourful content and people jump to even sign EMI forms. Because we want our kids to be happy.

Not to be preachy but the shift we really need is allowing children to be children. Let them take the time to grow up. Yes, give them direction. But a 5 year old really doesn't need to learn to code. That one change will automatically curb a lot of this.

[vamsi.vadrevu]

Education and health care is a basic right to all. This simple fundamental philosophy was identified by ancient Indians many thousands of years ago. So, in order to prevent greed and money minting mentality, teachers and doctors were told not to ask for money at all. In fact, asking for money was considered a sin. They had to subsist on dakshina and sponsorship from the then kings. This model worked perfectly until Macaulay bulldozed the entire system by hitting the source of income to gurukuls.

Considering education as a market and evaluation of money making potential on such brands just feels dirty and outright scummy.

It's not immoral to expect money for teaching. But to create institutions that extort money by selling education feels like the most evil thing ever. (The same goes for health care BTW)

I'm quite disappointed to see that India is considered an "ed-tech" market opportunity. This line of thinking should be banned and made illegal. Basic education (and health care for that matter) should never have been allowed to become a business!

Businesses like byjus are just an extension of what happened with private schools back in the 80s and 90s. Every "investor" created schools and colleges in hopes of minting money and they're still doing it to this day. We can just look at current costs of education from kindergarten to 12th to understand how much greed runs in the education sector.

[saubi2299]

Originally Posted by bhphog

I am not saying this is the entire fault of the victims or the sales rep but it is a mixture of both, the naivety of the parents + the cunningness of the sale rep.

In every scam and unethical practice, victims’ naivety is a factor but it doesn’t make the perpetrator less guilty.
Scam happens with gullible people only and perpetrators still deserve to be punished.
In the petrol pump scams reported quite often here, it is the owner who was not paying attention on meter reading but does it take away the responsibility from petrol pump attendant to do his duty sincerely and honestly?

Sorry, but they are not equally responsible. Parents act stupid and Byju’s act evil.

[tracerspiff]

Originally Posted by bhphog

To the people in favor of the 'helpless' parents who were 'duped' of the money, I am emphatic however, I firmly believe they are equally at fault as well. Two reasons:
1. Do these people have such a weak personality that can be overcome by someone who has interacted with them for an hour or so? It was a conscious decision that they made like everything else in life after having understood everything from the sales rep.
2. Did they ensure the kids make 100% use of the product? In most cases I know, it was bought and provided to the kid without ensuring the kid derives productivity from it.

Originally Posted by Samurai

This is victim blaming.

I have to agree with Samurai here. It is victim blaming. We can spare some empathy for the victims here since it costs nothing.

Here is my first-hand experience with these predatory Byjus salespeople. A Byjus sales rep followed a kid home and pestered the parents (Our maid) the whole evening selling them the world. They only had 4000 in their bank account. He made them withdraw that money and sold them a course worth 44k. The remaining he claimed would be paid through EMI. He took the aadhaar card, PAN card and initiated a loan on their behalf. He even coached them on what to say to the bank people who will call for KYC. She did not even know she had signed up for a loan. The sales guy would not answer his phone. Im assuming he moved on to his next mark.

This is where I and a few apartment residents had to step in. Luckily the loan was still in the KYC stage and I told her to disregard any calls from the bank so the loan wont go through. We had to call and scream at the Byjus folks to get the 4000 back.

Yes, the salespeople had mouths to feed but "Byju" knew what his sales team was doing. I have ZERO empathy for "Byju" himself and hope that karma catches up with him for duping thousands of gullible parents who want the best for their children. He has now pledged his houses to tide over the current situation.

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by vamsi.vadrevu

Education and health care is a basic right to all. This simple fundamental philosophy was identified by ancient Indians many thousands of years ago. So, in order to prevent greed and money minting mentality, teachers and doctors were told not to ask for money at all. In fact, asking for money was considered a sin. They had to subsist on dakshina and sponsorship from the then kings. This model worked perfectly until Macaulay bulldozed the entire system by hitting the source of income to gurukuls.

I guess its time to get off the "ancient culture" high horse or blame the British and look at reality. Isnt the govt. schools of today similar to the Gurukool where the students get free education and the king (Govt. today ) pays for the salaries? We all know the state of that. So can you explain how for the first 30-40 years after independence, things were fine and then suddenly Macaulay became a factor?
If you kids are presently studying in the neighborhood govt. school, then hats off you.

BTW, I did my schooling ( KV ) and graduation in Govt. school and college. But in the last 30 years, it has been systematically destroyed for vote bank and support private institutions.

[vamsi.vadrevu]

Originally Posted by m8002?

I guess its time to get off the "ancient culture" high horse or blame the British and look at reality. Isnt the govt. schools of today similar to the Gurukool where the students get free education and the king (Govt. today ) pays for the salaries? We all know the state of that. So can you explain how for the first 30-40 years after independence, things were fine and then suddenly Macaulay became a factor?
If you kids are presently studying in the neighborhood govt. school, then hats off you.

BTW, I did my schooling ( KV ) and graduation in Govt. school and college. But in the last 30 years, it has been systematically destroyed for vote bank and support private institutions.

Indeed, we did nothing better after getting our independence. We merely adapted their constitution and replaced white bureaucrats with brown ones. It has been long past time since we stopped blaming the British for our situation. But it was seeded by them. The greed, the power hunger, the divisive politics. They all stem from a corrupt system which we inherited and did nothing to get better. We kept electing one corrupt person after another. I sometimes think a dictatorship is needed for India to get back on track. With this rampant lawlessness and incompetent judiciary, and absolute disregard for rules, we're better off under a strict dictatorship.

Many countries have government schools that aren't as horrible as ours. Public education is probably the worst in India. The number of government schools and the quality are both inadequate. The generation before mine studied in government schools. Thereafter private schools became the norm. And now "international" and "techno" schools are all the rage. Their greed is very evident in their exorbitant fees.

Perhaps i went off topic a bit, but situation like byjus will keep happening until good education is made free.

[bhphog]

Originally Posted by m8002?

Wasn't the GreatLakes acquisition targeted for upskilling segment?

Yes, you are correct.
What worked with GL is that the acquisition was just in terms of finances, the management was retained and it was allowed to continue working the same way prior to its acquisition.
GL is doing well and positive outcomes are there for learners enrolling with GL.

Originally Posted by xcentrk

I didn't wanted to reply here but this one made me.

Thanks for replying even though you didn't want to.
By your logic, every person who is a victim of chit-fund fraud is also innocent. Wasn't there greed involved in them getting scammed?

Regarding the refund, as far as I understand, Byjus never had a refund policy. Salespeople are cunning, no doubt about it, but what stopped your house help from reading the terms and conditions? She could have used someone else's help if she had wasn't learned enough.

My statement regarding the naivety of the parents is in the context of taking the salesperson's word as the final word.
Let's not argue for the sake of argument.
The Salesperson didn't go and make the transaction without the consent of the learner or the learner's parents.


Yes, I am blaming the victims, no doubt about it.
General awareness is not taught or depends on one's economic status.
When we ask 1000 questions to buy a home appliance or even a phone, why did these parents not ask such questions?
If there was even a modicum of doubt, why did they proceed?

Society is general needs to be aware, we have evil and cunning people hiding in plain sight from time unknown which is a fact, then why do we let our guards down?

[xcentrk]

Originally Posted by bhphog

Thanks for replying even though you didn't want to.
By your logic, every person who is a victim of chit-fund fraud is also innocent. Wasn't there greed involved in them getting scammed?

I just don't understand how we can compare chit fund and education? Chit-fund and children's education is just completely different. Chit-fund yes, greed is involved. But can we say the same about kids education? Why are we sending our kids to school? Out of greediness? At least not me. I want my kid to learn as much as possible and do whatever they want to do.

We, white collar people can talk a lot about this, but for poor uneducated people who want to get out of poverty, giving education to their kids is their number one priority. If someone promises a good future for their kid, any parent who are desperate to get out of poverty will take the bait. This is just baiting the innocent for their own needs. If you moralize this as ok, then I can say the same about robber who robs any store for his needs.

Originally Posted by bhphog

Regarding the refund, as far as I understand, Byjus never had a refund policy. Salespeople are cunning, no doubt about it, but what stopped your house help from reading the terms and conditions? She could have used someone else's help if she had wasn't learned enough.

Check out the byju refund policy now. They had 30 days refund some time ago if I remember correctly. But even then, within 14 days they should have refunded. My cousin called then just after 7 days. But sales people again intentionally not picked the call and support routed him to get in touch with sales guy. Before he knew refund period is over and now he is paying EMI. And you still think he should have aware of all things that could have happened?

Originally Posted by bhphog

My statement regarding the naivety of the parents is in the context of taking the salesperson's word as the final word.
Let's not argue for the sake of argument.
The Salesperson didn't go and make the transaction without the consent of the learner or the learner's parents.

Expecting everyone to be brilliant like you is not correct. Just assume this way. If your friend or relative is not that bright and trust people's word, will you take this as a signal to cheat him?

What I want to highlight here is, Byju's sales persons intentionally targeted weak, uneducated or poor people for easy sales. If an educated parent is getting scammed we can say they are not aware. What about uneducated unaware parents? You still think they should have been aware of every other scam happening around the world?

This will be my last post about Byju's and I don't make any more post. I know for every action there will be equal and opposite reaction. But blaming the victim in a educated forum like this is just something I never would have imagined in my dreams. You don't have to console them or help them, but don't berate people who are already scammed. Doing nothing in fact will help these people!

[bhphog]

Originally Posted by xcentrk

Why are we sending our kids to school? Out of greediness? At least not me. I want my kid to learn as much as possible and do whatever they want to do.

My reason for drawing the parallel was that one should, in any area, should not act blindly and without cross-referencing.
I completely agree with you, don't get me wrong, that Byjus Sales people were and still are unethical, but that does not take responsibility away from a parent to cross-check before investing this kind of money for whatsoever reason it is.

Originally Posted by xcentrk

And you still think he should have aware of all things that could have happened?

Completely agreed, this was one of the key things that led to the downfall of Byjus.
Even more so, Byjus has had a well-paid legal team to ensure that revenue is reverted.
This is out in the open.
And yes, agree, being aware could not solve this.

Originally Posted by xcentrk

You don't have to console them or help them but don't berate people who are already scammed. Doing nothing in fact will help these people!

As I said, I have full empathy with the people who were scammed but I will stick to the fact that this was not a one-way fault just of the salespeople.
Just being aware, cross-referencing, and speaking to people around you helps, that's all.

Also, I am out of this discussion as this discussion was never about morality. Happy to provide insights about the ed-tech industry in general.

[Samurai]

Mod note: Let's stop discussing the ethics of Byju's, why discuss what doesn't exist. Enough has been said about it.

[RaviK]

Originally Posted by Tassem

..But I've never really seen many parents talk about what their kid will do when he/she grows up as much as I see it here. Nor have I seen such widespread competition between parents. I see it in school, parents groups, almost everywhere. WhiteHat Jr did not just sell to gullible parents. They sold to parents who wanted their 5 yr olds to learn coding. Were they right? Ethically, no. Morally, no. But from a business perspective, they identified a segment and catered to it. Simple.

Personally I've never wished bad for any company. But I remember when I heard about what they were doing, I said that they wont last long. I said the same thing when Byju's acquired them. That they're just accepting themselves for who they are by aligning with a company like Whitehat Jr. I had very close contacts in both companies at the time.

So Byju's may bite the dust. But will this stop? Nope. The names will change, the products will change but the idea remains the same. Allow parents to compete via their children......

This is a hard-wired trait present in a significant percentage of indians and has survived generations (and geographies too!!). In Indian groupings/discussions/social media posts here in Sydney, this theme is forever present (people looking for tuitions for 3 year Olds, pre-schoolers enrolled for competitive school preps, online coaching classes from India etc. etc.).
With this gullible client pool present, the fields will forever be fertile for ed-techs.