[xingamazon]

I am also considering putting some money in Cryptocurrency.
Are there any other service providers other than Zebpay?

what are the currencies you people are investing off late.

[skoda0505]

Some more questions, please shed some light on the following:

- If bitcoin legal status is not known for India, how do we get the money back to our accounts and what is the taxation applicable on it ?
Lets say I invest 1L today which grows up to 5L in a year. Will I be able to transfer this money back to my account ? And if yes, what kind of capital gain tax do I incur ?

- What are the factors that are controlling bitcoin value ? Is it market situation/political situation or independent of that ?

- Its status quo for bitcoins in India but they can be declared illegal very soon like they are for few countries. How high is the probability for India to declare it illegal ?

- Since early 2017 the bitcoin rates have spiraled like anything. What is the general advice now ? Is it a good time to invest or are the rates expected to crash or normalize in near future ?

[Luv_Jaiswal]

Originally Posted by chandras

I've been using ZebPay for about an year. But feels that the rates are not favorable due to high commissions.
1. Is there any other bitcoin wallet/exchange that I can use?
2. Can I transfer my existing bitcoins from ZebPay to another overseas wallet (say Coinbase)? Is there a cost associated to that or the transfer is free?

Hello.
You may have gotten an answer for your questions by now but here are my two cents.

1. In India, as of now, there are not many exchanges via which you can buy or sell cryptocurrencies. ZebPay seems to be the best because it not only has the highest number of users in India (user base has crossed 5,00,000 users) but also because it has good customer service and app UI.
Other than ZebPay, there is Coinsecure and Unocoin. I personally prefer ZebPay because it is faster and gives the cheapest bitcoin rates in India at the moment compared to the rest.

2. Yes, you can transfer your bitcoins to any wallets, in India or any other country in the world. There is a transfer fee that will be charged to you by your local wallet (ZebPay in this case) which varies as per the bitcoins you are transferring. You can find the exact rates in the ZebPay app as well.

In other countries (specially USA and others) the transfer charges and brokerage charges are low because there are a lot of wallet service providers already. Soon it will be the same case in India but we will have to wait for that.

Originally Posted by xingamazon

I am also considering putting some money in Cryptocurrency.
Are there any other service providers other than Zebpay?

what are the currencies you people are investing off late.

Please read my answer above, it can help you with some clarity on the same.
I am investing in Ethereum and Bitcoin all the way. I guess it is going to go in the same footsteps as Bitcoin has gone in the past few years.
Litecoin is also another investment opportunity but according to me, it will take some more time to stabilise.

Originally Posted by skoda0505

Some more questions, please shed some light on the following:

- If bitcoin legal status is not known for India, how do we get the money back to our accounts and what is the taxation applicable on it ?
Lets say I invest 1L today which grows up to 5L in a year. Will I be able to transfer this money back to my account ? And if yes, what kind of capital gain tax do I incur ?

- What are the factors that are controlling bitcoin value ? Is it market situation/political situation or independent of that ?

- Its status quo for bitcoins in India but they can be declared illegal very soon like they are for few countries. How high is the probability for India to declare it illegal ?

- Since early 2017 the bitcoin rates have spiraled like anything. What is the general advice now ? Is it a good time to invest or are the rates expected to crash or normalize in near future ?

Judging from your questions, I guess you are well versed with what is going on in India regarding cryptocurrencies and the legality of it.
Just before June 2017, the Government of India had set a special committee to understand the pros and cons of cryptocurrencies, for which even citizens could submit their own views.

The Government basically had 3 options regarding this, first, to make cryptocurrencies illegal in India because of which no citizens can legally buy or sell cryptocurrencies. Second, to let it be as is. Which means to not interfere with private exchanges/wallets operations and let them decide the prices. And third, to regulate it. By regulation, the Government wants to not only educate the average citizen about cryptocurrencies but also wants to step in the make sure that private companies aren't setting their own prices for their own benefits (which is exactly what is going on in India as of now). Regulation and stepping in of the Government will not only reduce the difference of price of Bitcoin in India and in other countries, but will also give us more options in exchanges and wallets to choose from. This indirectly will also reduce the transaction charges we have to pay as of now because competition will increase.

The good news is that just in the middle of this month, the Government has accepted the committee's plea to regulate cryptocurrencies in India. The committee will be submitting a plan by this month end which will be put in place and tested for a span of 6 months and then the permanent call will be taken by the Government about to future of cryptocurrencies in India.

Our Government seems to understand the prospects of cryptocurrencies and wants more clarity to be present among the citizens.

About the increase in prices of Bitcoin, I do not think that it will reduce in the near future. As I have said earlier, Etheruem seems to be an interesting investment and so does Litecoin. Ripple will take some time but will soon join this list.

Disclaimer:- All these views are my own, I do not take any responsibilities for any actions taken by others.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Luv_Jaiswal

Our Government seems to understand the prospects of cryptocurrencies and wants more clarity to be present among the citizens.

Government will have a vested interest because of the tax angle. If somebody living in India is earning in bitcoins and spending in bitcoins, such a person must pay income tax and sales tax (soon GST) on it.

Until bitcoin exchanges make it possible for the government to collect tax, it will remain outside of the law. Next comes monetary policy. How will the RBI control money supply when bitcoins come into play?

[Luv_Jaiswal]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Government will have a vested interest because of the tax angle. If somebody living in India is earning in bitcoins and spending in bitcoins, such a person must pay income tax and sales tax (soon GST) on it.

Until bitcoin exchanges make it possible for the government to collect tax, it will remain outside of the law. Next comes monetary policy. How will the RBI control money supply when bitcoins come into play?

I share the same concerns as yours.
This is the reason why the Government will lay a rough plan and observe for the next 6 months. Only after that will a permanent decision be taken. Time will tell, and I hope there aren't many terms or conditions to it.

Many Governments of other countries are flexing rules and regulations to make cryptocurrencies easier to deal in.

Let's hope for the best.

[anku94]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Government will have a vested interest because of the tax angle. If somebody living in India is earning in bitcoins and spending in bitcoins, such a person must pay income tax and sales tax (soon GST) on it.

The exchanges already collect service tax on their service fee.

If you're buying/selling significant amount of cryptoassets, it'll anyway raise a red flag unless you're paying some form of tax (either Capital Gains or tax on income from business) on the profit.

But I agree that our bureaucrats probably realize that the only way to prevent another black market forming is to regulate cryptocurrencies.

[Samurai]

Here is a nice article explaining blockchains.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/block...-mohit-mamoria

[sushantr5]

Hello Friends,


Purpose of starting this thread:
Nowadays I see most of the people around me are banking heavily on crypto currency like Bitcoin, ether. I am the only one who do not think like them. Some of my friends are invested in them with their life earnings. These situations compel me to dig deeper into this topic. Team BHP is mainly automative forum and most of the people around here generally have good knowledge about most of the aspects in life, in total intellectuality level is best compared to other forums. There are discussions on many other topics happening in Team BHP but I could not find discussion thread on this topic. So I have started this thread so that we could gather knowledge around the subject.

In the last few years crypto curreny saw multifold increase in their trading price. Moreover some Initial Coin Offerings give opportunity to people to make fortune or loose fortune. It is gambling in a sense. But technicality revolving around this concept is also interesting. Personally I (I work in Germany) know a friend who has earned 30 ( Thirty, you read it right ) times through initial coin offerings (ICO). Amount earned by friend is staggering/mindblowing. There are instances happened in front of me where people have earned 4-5 times in a day. All the time I did not trust them what they are saying, but when I saw it happen I thought I need to gather knowledge and there is no better place than the forum.

I invite you all to discuss about the subject and people like me can get knowledge about the subject. May be it is bad or biggest scam of the century but may be it is logical thing as well. Knowledge build up will help all of us to solve the myth. If it is good then it should not happen we miss the bus and stay behind because sometimes I get queries from some of friends who are from remote place, really small village, native place of my father. Because I work abroad they think I may have knowledge. But I simply say I dont know.

Enough of explanation above about introduction for thread. It is not adding any real value. I am sure now experts will start adding value by sharing knowledge they have. Please welcome to discuss about
CRYPTO CURRENCY Trading and Mining, ICO and related topics, Opportunities and Risks, Future it holds.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Until bitcoin exchanges make it possible for the government to collect tax, it will remain outside of the law. Next comes monetary policy. How will the RBI control money supply when bitcoins come into play?

I am yet to see someone explain this to me.

Let's look at the goals of bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency.

1) Money without the middlemen like the central bank.
Money prior to central banks were nothing but precious metal with intrinsic value. So this is like going back to using gold/silver as money. That means you are personally responsible for storing your money. You know what they say about taking out the middlemen, you have to do the job of the middlemen. If you store your cryptocurrency in your PC, and your hard drive dies, that money is gone. If your PC is hacked, or your online wallet is hacked, it is gone too. You can take printout of your money and store it physically, but if somebody snaps a pic of that sheet with their smartphone, it is gone again. Banks gave the physical safety for our money. Without the banks, we are responsible again for the physical safety. Cryptocurrency rich men can never leave home then.

2) You can do transactions without the oversight of the government.
Cryptocurrency doesn't guarantee anonymity, it can be tracked. Not only that, no government will appreciate you bypassing the sales tax during transactions. This will result in legal issues for the transactors. If government can't collect taxes, there is no money to built infrastructure, have a military or simply run the government.

3) Governments can no longer control money.
If they can't control money, they will have no monetary policy. Without that, they can't control the economy or the inflation. Money can fly out of the country, and the country will be a sitting duck.

Earlier, I had thought that cryptocurrency was for transactions. However, I see it is mostly used for storing wealth, with everybody hoping the value will grow and grow. So it has become exactly like gold.

Blockchain is a fantastic technology. However, I am not clear what exactly the problem cryptocurrency is solving.

[Tanmay K]

I'll try to answer a few.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Banks gave the physical safety for our money. Without the banks, we are responsible again for the physical safety. Cryptocurrency rich men can never leave home then.

I'll agree. In the current state of affairs, safety of cryptocurrency is only understood by tech savvy people for the most part. If one isn't good with infosec, coins are better left on the exchanges, which is something most cryptocurrency advocates will not recommend doing. But with mass adoption, hopefully easier solutions for managing cryptocurrencies will come up (and have already started coming in, check www.ledgerwallet.com).

2) You can do transactions without the oversight of the government.
Cryptocurrency doesn't guarantee anonymity, it can be tracked.

Cryptocurrencies like Monero are completely anonymous, if that is what one wants. Under the current regulations, the law requires you to pay taxes on any gains from crypto to INR transactions. More here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213792.0

3) Governments can no longer control money.
If they can't control money, they will have no monetary policy. Without that, they can't control the economy or the inflation. Money can fly out of the country, and the country will be a sitting duck.

The idea is to have a self-regulating currency. It will not require a monetary policy from the government. Obviously this scares some countries like China like anything. I guess it becomes subjective at this point, but some people, including me, would rather trust a mathematical framework than some guys making decisions at the RBI or the Fed.

Earlier, I had thought that cryptocurrency was for transactions. However, I see it is mostly used for storing wealth, with everybody hoping the value will grow and grow. So it has become exactly like gold.

The initial problem that bitcoin was trying to solve was that of transactions only, and was intended to be that way ONLY. But when you think about it, hoarding bitcoins is somewhat similar to hoarding INR or USD. People want to get paid for their work/job in INR or USD because they feel others in the economy will value it and they can use it to get goods and services. When it comes down to the very fundamentals, the concept of money itself becomes an abstraction. Over time, any underlying instrument that is used for doing executing transactions, becomes valuable in itself (because hoarding it allows you to make more transactions).

Cyrpto is far from perfect, but things like this take several iterations of evolution.

However, I am not clear what exactly the problem cryptocurrency is solving.

The exact problem that it aims to solve is that of currency centralization. I won't go into the advantages or disadvantages of centralization/decentralization but cryptos aim to do to fiat currencies what internet did to traditional forms of information sharing.

Originally Posted by Samurai

How will the RBI control money supply when bitcoins come into play?

That is precisely the point. It is admittedly a fairly radical outlook but crypto's main tryst is with with central banks like RBI. Why? The answer is inflation. This is a short video by Milton Friedman from the 1970s describing how central banks mess up economies by causing inflation (and have been messing up for decades on end):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ4TTNeSUdQ

The answer to each and every concern raised in the video is answered by bitcoin due it it's deflationary nature, hence it's value. It's a capitalist's utopia.

It's sad to see everybody thinking that bitcoin is only a way to get rich quick, or an "investment". That is what is dangerous, and can lead to bubble-like situations (like the dot com bubble).

[SmartCat]

Tanmay, you just explained why Crypto-currencies in the current form is a half-baked idea.

Without central bank oversight and limited number, it tackles the problem of inflation. But since it incentivizes hoarding (and investment or speculation) because of rising value, it creates DEFLATION if there is widespread use. Deflation and Depression are much worse than mild inflation. All you have to do is read economic history.

Gold and Gold-backed currencies were solely responsible for all deflationary periods and the Great Depression. In the past, every war was followed by a long stretch of deflation - because all the Gold was spent on soldiers & equipment. And there was very little 'money' in circulation for normal transaction resulting in bouts of deflation/depression. Central banks (or King's treasury) cannot increase or decrease money supply. The romantics who talk about currency that is free from Government intervention have not read economic history nor have understood how economy really works.

JP Morgan's CEO says Bitcoin will eventually be worth ZERO, and I'm afraid I will have to side with him. Because Bitcoins neither have intrinsic value (like Gold) nor are Govt backed (like paper currency)
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/22/bitc...oin-again.html

Regarding India & RBI, all you have to do is wait till terrorists start using bitcoins. That's when you can expect India/RBI to ban bitcoins.

[Tanmay K]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Deflation and Depression are much worse than mild inflation.

I'll avoid going into inflation vs deflation as that might derail us offtopic. I don't mind if we agree to disagree on that Extremes of both are bad obviously, agreed. For me, in an ideal world, a very small rate of deflation would carefully self-controlled, and not decided by some group of people who's interests and incentives can be susceptible to be swayed by short term inefficiencies, including but not limited to, vote-bank politics or pure incompetence.

All in all, I am a strong proponent of free market policies, and crypto tends to align with that idea very well. It is important to note that I am referring to cryptocurrencies in general, I am not sure if bitcoin alone can suffice to the needs of the economy.

JP Morgan's CEO says Bitcoin will eventually be worth ZERO, and I'm afraid I will have to side with him. Because Bitcoins neither have intrinsic value (like Gold) nor are Govt backed (like paper currency)

There have been lots of comments over the years from popular personalities in favor and against cryptos. Anyway, one can argue about the apparent "value" of something. Is gold any good to a farmer growing wheat? Not really. To him, all that matters are seeds, fertilizers and water, among other things. But he would gladly accept gold given to him. Why? Because he knows that others place value on gold and maybe be can buy from seeds from gold. That is just the nature of currencies of any kind. The truth is, and it is very much in human nature, to place value on things other than just utility. If one really wants to talk about utility, I would argue that currencies like ethereum have immense value because of them enabling smart contracts. Half the world's problems which require conditional currency transfers can be solved instantly.

The history is full of examples of government-backed currencies going from being exchanged and used to being worthless in a matter of days following a change of policy or the government itself, forced or unforced.

And like I said earlier, hoarding is a well-studied economic phenomenon that is not limited to cryptos. I would leave it to the market to correct itself if needed.

Regarding India & RBI, all you have to do is wait till terrorists start using bitcoins. That's when you can expect India/RBI to ban bitcoins.

Unfortunately, one cannot stop the terrorists from using any form of currency. They happily use INR for their purposes right now, and have been known to spread fake INR notes as well. Will we ban rupee because the terrorists use it too? Crypto is no different from real cash in that sense. I'm sure the bad guys aren't swiping credit cards to do what they want to do and leaving paper trails? They use the very same government-backed cash. If crypto catches up, they'll use that as well. As long as real paper cash exists in good supply, we won't get past that problem.

As far as a ban is concerned, the implementation would be pretty redundant. RBI and other central banks know that very well, hence they've taken the regulation route. It was (and still is) in their interest to ban it completely, if they effectively could. China had means and mechanism to ban crypto, and they did, just like they've managed to muscle out Google and Facebook. But thankfully, the rest of the world isn't like China.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Tanmay K

or me, in an ideal world, a very small rate of deflation would carefully self-controlled, and not decided by some group of people who's interests and incentives can be susceptible to be swayed by short term inefficiencies, including but not limited to, vote-bank politics or pure incompetence.

Note that a small rate of deflation will automatically become a big rate of deflation. This is called deflationary spiral. You cannot control it if the currency supply is limited. A deflationary spiral causes large scale unemployment and poverty.

Also, coming to think of it, I don't think crypto-currencies addresses hyperinflation issues either. So bitcoin supply is limited, but then there are 100 other cyrpto-currencies. Theoretically, if all cryptos are well accepted by world population and there is nothing that prevents people from "creating" new cryptos, how is it different from paper currency?

Is gold any good to a farmer growing wheat? Not really. To him, all that matters are seeds, fertilizers and water, among other things. But he would gladly accept gold given to him. Why? Because he knows that others place value on gold and maybe be can buy from seeds from gold.

Gold is different from crypto-currencies.

1) You cannot 'create' Gold. But you can create cryptos. If it is too difficult to mine bitcoin, then mine Etherium. If it is too difficult to mine Etherium, mine something else.

2) Gold has an intrinsic value and industrial uses. For a moment, lets assume that nobody ever buys Gold for investment and Gold prices crash to Rs. 7,000 per 10 gram. But you see, Gold has certain characteristics. It is the best conductor of heat and electricity. You cannot destroy it. R&D firms will come up with a gazillion uses of Gold as an industrial metal if prices fall.

Can you tell me what intrinsic value a crypto-currency like Bitcoin has? What is "fair value" of Bitcoin or any other crypto-currency.

And while we are at it, why not use STOCKS as a currency? The number of shares of Infosys is limited too. Atleast holding Infosys stocks gives you dividends. It is a hedge against inflation. I can transfer it to you via DP cheques. It is traded in NASDAQ too, so it might be well accepted by Americans too.

RBI/SEBI should perhaps loosen the restrictions on trading of stocks, and make it much more transactional like paper currency.

[Tanmay K]

Originally Posted by smartcat

1) You cannot 'create' Gold. But you can create cryptos. If it is too difficult to mine bitcoin, then mine Etherium. If it is too difficult to mine Etherium, mine something else.

Yes, sure one can mine any crypto they really want. But mining costs infrastructure and electricity. If the market price of a currency is not high enough to justify mining it, then you would lose money mining it. Fairly simple. If there is more than one crypto that is profitable to mine, then so be it. This flexibility of the mining more or any number/types of coins is simply the market's way of rewarding the currencies that serve the need of the people and society/sentiment of the market. Some day when enough people stop using bitcoin in favor of some other crypto, it may only be rational to stop mining bitcoin and mine what people are using for transactions and is priced high enough. At that time, the value of bitcoin may gradually go down to zero and some other crypto will rise. Who has seen the future?

What is "fair value" of Bitcoin or any other crypto-currency.

If you truly ask me the fair value of bitcoin or something else, my answer would simply be: the current market price. So I believe you intend to ask, if the current market price "correct"? Correct is a very subjective term, and its definition changes person to person. It changes depending on how you analyze a commodity and in what time frame. If the current market price of a commodity that I value falls 15% in 2 minutes, I will be the first one to buy it cheap because my analysis would say that the market price is "incorrect". And vice versa. But that's just my opinion, and my use-case could be horribly wrong when placed in the context of someone else.

So is bitcoin at it's fair, correct price right now? The answer to that would depend on what you intend to do with the coin. Hoard it? And hoard it for how long? I would not recommend that. Use it to buy an iPhone on Newegg? Sure, go ahead! I say the same for people buying expensive real estate in Delhi NCR because some properties may be overvalued in the short term. Yet people take loans worth crores and pay interest through the nose and buy anyway.

I never recommend anyone to "invest" in cryptos. Only because it is not something they truly understand yet. Investing in something you don't understand is usually a recipe for eventually going broke. Thank your luck if you didn't.

R&D firms will come up with a gazillion uses of Gold as an industrial metal if prices fall.

If the "correct" market price of gold would only depend on it's industrial uses, it would be a lot cheaper. But since people like hoarding gold, it is overvalued, so to say. Too bad if you gift a girl a ring made from neodymium, she'll likely give you a confused look, while you say to yourself "but neodymium is more useful than gold!". Gold wins because the society somehow came up with a way to place an abstract, non-intrinsic value to it. Why? Because gold is rare. Sounds a little like crypto, does it not?

Can you tell me what intrinsic value a crypto-currency like Bitcoin has?

I could go on and on about it's technological usefulness other than transactions, but that will likely not be convincing enough. The single most intrinsic value it provides is the fact that it lets you access to a flawless system of transactions.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Tanmay K

Yes, sure one can mine any crypto they really want. But mining costs infrastructure and electricity. If the market price of a currency is not high enough to justify mining it, then you would lose money mining it. Fairly simple.

If there is more than one crypto that is profitable to mine, then so be it. This flexibility of the mining more or any number/types of coins is simply the market's way of rewarding the currencies that serve the need of the people and society/sentiment of the market.

So future money supply will be decided by a bunch of techies who have access to fastest computers and cheapest electricity? And not the Government, whom we vote in?

The future society will be very strange if REAL resources (electricity generation & computer hardware) are deployed to create VIRTUAL digital currencies - which has no real purpose for its existence.

Why would farmers toil to grow crops? Why would manufacturers bother to build cars and other machinery? Why would RELIANCE INDUSTRIES bother to refine crude oil, when it can use its resources to "create money" with the help of new low cost power plants & high end computer hardware?