[Jeroen]

There have been several articles about India's new Light Combat Aircraft Tejas recently.

I would like to understand how good it really is. I've searched quite a bit on the Internet, but there is very little that makes sense. A lot of is, no offense, a lot of nationalistic gung-ho. That's fine, but it doesn't really provide factual information. I fully appreciate the relevance and what it can mean to a nation to have the in-house capabilities to design and build these sort of aircrafts. But I'm just an aviation enthusiast and part time pilot, who just wants to understand planes. Not interested in the economics of geo political relevance at this point in time.

I'm just interested to have a bit of a factual understanding on what this Tejas is really about and what it will do for the Indian Air force. Everybody seems to agree it will be much better than the current MIG21. Some compare it to the F16, (which is being phased out by most western air forces at the moment).

So anybody can help out with a bit of a aviation/military/technical showdown on this new aircraft?

Jeroen

[directinjection]

I would suggest you visit the following websites:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas
www.bharat-rakshak.com
www.ajaishukla.blogspot.in
www.livefistdefence.com
ada.gov.in

[WindRide]

Probably an appropriate time to reopen this old thread, since IAF recently inducted Tejas to form the "‘Flying Daggers" squadron.
And here is an useful read for all the nay-sayers and fence-sitters...
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comme...as_falsehoods/

Fly high Tejas!!

[Maveryq]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

There have been several articles about India's new Light Combat Aircraft Tejas recently.

I would like to understand how good it really is. I've searched quite a bit on the Internet, but there is very little that makes sense.

So anybody can help out with a bit of a aviation/military/technical showdown on this new aircraft?

Jeroen

Sir,

I am not sure if these would help you to understand the aircraft better. Posting here to get an external viewpoint on the Tejas. It has recieved the FOC (Final Operational Clearance).

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/0...ighter-part-i/

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/0...eight-fighter/

Thanks,
Jitendra

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by directinjection

I would suggest you visit the following websites:

Originally Posted by WindRide

And here is an useful read for all the nay-sayers and fence-sitters...
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comme...as_falsehoods/

Fly high Tejas!!

Originally Posted by Maveryq

I am not sure if these would help you to understand the aircraft better. Posting here to get an external viewpoint on the Tejas. It has recieved the FOC (Final Operational Clearance).

I guess the OP here has read some of these links already and is currently interested in:

1) A technical/capability comparison of Tejas with other jets out there in the segment it which it should be categorized (4th Gen fighters??). Which ones are those exactly and perhaps a comparison on some specific parameters.

2) How it may help India and some other Nations which whom India may work on future development/export of the said fighter/trainer. Perhaps more from a numbers perspective given that the commonly referenced competition (LM F16) is too old and now being phased out.

[SPARKled]

It is already better than its nearest adversary the JF17 with the PAF. Numbers being the only advantage for the JF17. Next version of the Tejas mk1a is slated to make it as good or better than any plane in its class including the Grippen which is widely known as the best in the light class of fighters. The MK2 of the Tejas will bring it to the medium weight category and will be developed to replace most of the legacy fighters of the IAF such as THE Mig 29, Jaguar and the Mig27.

In its current avatar with mmr radar, bvr capability and other advanced avionics it is already better than the Mig 21, which it was designed to replace as a point defence and patrol fighter.

[Maveryq]

Originally Posted by SPARKled

It is already better than its nearest adversary the JF17 with the PAF.
In its current avatar with mmr radar, bvr capability and other advanced avionics it is already better than the Mig 21, which it was designed to replace as a point defence and patrol fighter.

A query that I had, will Tejas Mk1 continue to be produced along with Mk2? Will both coexist in the fleet?


Thanks


Jitendra

[SPARKled]

Originally Posted by Maveryq

A query that I had, will Tejas Mk1 continue to be produced along with Mk2? Will both coexist in the fleet?


Thanks


Jitendra

The Tejas mk1 only has a confirmed order of 40 after which the mk1a will be produced. The changes envisioned are an Israeli ELTA AESA radar, lower weight that will improve the thrust to weight ratio by removing a lot of redundant and unneeded equipment and replacing the balancing ballast with actual advanced avionics such as the AESA radar etc, GE 414 engine that has higher thrust than the existing GE 404 engine, ability to carry Bhramos NG missile and so on. This one really is what the airforce wanted and will probably be ordered in numbers to make mass replacements of our old outdated fleet. It should easily surpass the quality of most Chinese and Pak 4th gen single seat fighters. It would possibly also be good choice for export to friendly countries as a credible, cheap and better choice than some of the Korean, Russian and Chinese single seat budget fighters.

The MK2 design has only been finalized recently and the abilities make it a medium weight aircraft with a canard design, additional fuel capability translating to a greater range, more Ordnance carrying hardpoints and a larger size.

[murillo]

The biggest deal breaker for Tejas is in its heart - its engine.

Depending on foreign engines won't give us strategic independence. While we can procure other equipment from multiple sources, the engine is too important to be procured from abroad. In dire times, we must be able to produce as many engines as possible within our country. If we use a foreign engine, we may have to apply to that company/government and wait for a favorable response that will only come with diplomatic, political, or military costs - imagine running to Pentagon/US government screaming "give us GE engines." Needless to say, very few countries make the best jet engines and many of top-gun engines may not even be available for purchase.

The indigenous Kaveri engine is still a work in progress. This engine has come a long way and continues to evolve even with its minuscule budget. Instead of aiming to build a passenger jet, we must provide more budgetary allocation to project Kaveri so that GTRE can build a world-class engine as early as possible and integrate it into the future Tejas's models.

[V.Narayan]

(1) Not sure why we don't license build the GE 414 if the Americans are willing to cosy up with us now. It is proven and mature and well within the power range needed to keep Tejas in the 1:1 power to weight ratio.

(2) Having come this far with the Kaveri project we must now see it through with help of SNECMA and get it into service. Too much money and national effort has been invested. It was started as a project in 1986. 33 years and counting.

(3) The Kaveri, technically speaking from what is available in the public domain, is not a bad design but the DRDO has suffered from being too ambitious without ever having successfully designed an engine, not even a piston aero engine; DRDO does not admit to its challenges, which there will be, till it has gone completely out of control; hesitates to seek foreign collaboration even from the French and Russians who have been trusted partners and has had wholly unrealistic planning schedules.

(4) The Chinese went step by step. They took the Russian engines they had. Reverse engineered it. Made a few small improvements and put them into service in to aircraft that weren't world beaters but were there in the front line on time in numbers.

[Maveryq]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

(1) Not sure why we don't license build the GE 414 if the Americans are willing to cosy up with us now. It is proven and mature and well within the power range needed to keep Tejas in the 1:1 power to weight ratio.

(2) Having come this far with the Kaveri project we must now see it through with help of SNECMA and get it into service. Too much money and national effort has been invested. It was started as a project in 1986. 33 years and counting.

Other than the metallurgy, what are the main challenges of building an engine.This is something that has plagued almost all our mechanical efforts. Right from the engine for the Arjun MBT, to the ISRO -GSLV, PSLV. Even the automotive engines are Fiat engines that are preferred.



What seems to be holding us back in your opinion?

[SPARKled]

Building engines on license is something we have been doing for years. But the core and the important stuff like crystal blades always comes from the oem and currently only 4 countries in the world possess the know how to build these and produce reliable engines. Not China, not Korea, not Japan, not Germany, just Russia, USA, France and UK. Japan and Germany can do easily it but for whatever reasons do not probably something to do with treaties post ww2 or just no will.

Kaveri is a decent first attempt, but just too underpowered to power the Tejas. Safran has been roped in to certify its reliability and increase power by making changes to the core using the M88 core but frankly no one gives an engine know how just like that for even a huge sum of money. We could see Kaveri powered UAVs, light aircraft or even in some marine applications but the hard truth is that it won't power any fighter in the near future like MWA or the AMCA and btw America is the worst when it comes to ToT, so expecting them to give it to us for the GE404 or the 414 is just a dream. Even Russia which can sell anything for the right amount of money plays hard sell when it comes to engine tech. The Chinese bought a squadron of SU35s from Russia only to study that engine and improve its engine tech than anything else. So just license producing and copying does not work when it comes to engine tech or we would have already seen these on sale on Aliexpress

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by SPARKled

But the core and the important stuff like crystal blades always comes from the oem and currently only 4 countries in the world possess the know how to build these and produce reliable engines. Not China, not Korea, not Japan, not Germany, just Russia, USA, France and UK. Japan and Germany can do easily it but for whatever reasons do not probably something to do with treaties post ww2 or just no will.

... So just license producing and copying does not work when it comes to engine tech or we would have already seen these on sale on Aliexpress

Thanks for the crux.
From what I recall (based on industrial GT discussions) respective Govts of these countries play a big role in sustaining the R&D efforts of private enterprises involved in the engines.

Perhaps we require a similar model in India to make it successful?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Maveryq

Other than the metallurgy, what are the main challenges of building an engine.This is something that has plagued almost all our mechanical efforts. Right from the engine for the Arjun MBT, to the ISRO -GSLV, PSLV. Even the automotive engines are Fiat engines that are preferred.

What seems to be holding us back in your opinion?

Metallurgy is of course a big component in building an engine. And of course, these days we go beyond metal when it come to building engine.

I have my own little theory when it comes to these things. In order to build anything very complex and very high tech (say a fighter jet) you need an immense ecosystem where you have constant access to the brightest, the best, the best equipped resources. People, laboratories, test beds etc.

You need immense scale and funding. Very few places in the world have that.

If you look at how for instance Research facilities are working together with the aviation industry (both military and commercial) in say the USA or Europe it is just phenomenal.

Whoever has the best ecosystem is always, potentially, ahead of the next guy.

On my earlier question, I would like to understand how to rate a jet fighter to start with. You could rate it against it contemporaries, or maybe more relevant rate it against those jets it is likely to encounter for the next decades. (e.g. if the other guys are still flying F4, Mig 15 you don't need much to outclass them).

Jeroen

[SPARKled]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

On my earlier question, I would like to understand how to rate a jet fighter to start with. You could rate it against it contemporaries, or maybe more relevant rate it against those jets it is likely to encounter for the next decades. (e.g. if the other guys are still flying F4, Mig 15 you don't need much to outclass them).

Jeroen

It's not that easy to rate fighter jets purely on their specs alone. Training, avionics, maintenance, quality of weapons used, pilot skills all play a huge part in how good that fighter really is in comparison to its contemporaries. For eg. The Mig 29 is usually considered a better plane on pure aerodynamic terms and performance compared to a F16, but has always been at the receiving end of an AAM as the opposition of the majority of ill trained, sparsely equipped and maintained Syrian and Iraqi Mig29s have been BVR and AESA equipped well trained USAF pilots. But during Kargil we locked on to PAF F16s using our Mig29s equipped with BVR missiles, resulting in their quick exit from their purpoted CAS roles which made air support almost non existent for the Pakistanis while we bombed the peaks held by the intruders using our Mirages.

So in short both are 4th gen planes but training and avionics and pilot quality has a big say on which is better.