[mandheers]

Originally Posted by fine69

Haven't we heard enough of "wish to gain lean muscle mass". In fact one of my first posts on this thread was, "need to gain lean muscle mass" and what I meant was, "need to look >= Hrithik".

Yes I know what you were referring to, hence my reference to Pandora's Box, today everyone is in a rush. I have boys and girls who proudly proclaim they have been 'gymming' for 2 years. Next thing you see they have an Instagram profile and doling out diet and training advice.

Originally Posted by fine69

Let me share my story briefly if its worth anything. I started drinking (moderate to heavy) at the age of 19 (my first job). I spent the next 9-10 years doing the same thing. I started on the fitness journey when I was 28-29. I did a lot of cardio, swimming and injured myself badly doing the Insanity workout. I took to weight training around 2 years back and injured myself enough to tell you that I've lifted for a period of just 8-10 months in total.

Too long breaks, too many breaks, too many major injuries (Complete & Partial Meniscus tear in both knees, Partial ACL tear in one knee, Fluid retention in left ankle, some muscle tear in right shoulder, calf muscle tear in right leg, hip piriformis, anal fissure and few other minor ones) may not allow much credibility when it comes to stats but my learning has been immense. I posted even about having hemorrhoid with hardly 20 kgs dumbbells, beat that!

I wanted quick results in too short a time which led to most of the injuries.

My bodyweight is 72 kgs and I got back to weight training after a few months now and went back to -
ATG Squat (5x5) - 80 kgs
Deadlift (5x1) - 80 kgs
Overhead Press (5x5) - 40 kgs
Bench (5x5) - 55kgs

Both deadlift & squat are down from 100 kgs, I think I can get back to 100 kgs in about 3-4 months now.

For an overall weight training period of less than one year I don't think its too bad.

I will take a video when I squat/deadlift 100 kgs to share with you all.

I had gotten less serious about weight training for a while given the no. of injuries (its just too frustrating) but as I type this I think its time to get back in the game. As such I've got to beat Mandheer's stats in the next 36 months!!

Buddy, that's a lot of issues, maybe not with the training but how your body is responding to the 'trauma'. All of us are very very different, some body constitutions are not meant for a certain activity.

For example, I have concluded over the years that running long distance is not for me, and while I used to enjoy sprints - I also realized they were the real cause of most of my injuries. I still don't have a right triceps and can barely do any pushing work coz I tried calisthenics and bodyweight workouts.

I will strongly advice you tweak your training and see if any other activity works better for you and your frame.

If you see the best of athletes across sports, and if you remove them from the game, they would have been more or less in/around their frame. Maybe not peak frame or performance, but pretty close. That's genetics, general disposition and lifestyle choices, and it's been discussed here a fair bit.

I would say don't push for a 36 month goal against anyone, see what works best for you and set a goal to get better at that. You will sail easy through those 36 months and keep getting better!

Squats, Deads, Bench etc are foundations since they train motor patterns and ensure a balanced physique, but so does swimming, running, skipping etc.

Avoid the 'insanity' workouts, train smart. I had never done Deadlifts much before 2015, I had some nerve injury maybe owing to handstands and I lost my Right Chest, Lats, Traps, Triceps to complete atrophy in July 2013. I was off training for nearly 2 years.

When I resumed I couldn't do much isolation work, so took up Squatting alternate days and Rows and Deadlifts on a 5x5 program. It has seen me this far again, starting from scratch.

Here's a TBHP post I located from long, long back. This is how i looked, plz excuse the topless pics:- http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ml#post2258400

I don't think I can get back to that frame, but I will stay around it.

[fine69]

Originally Posted by mandheers

I had some nerve injury maybe owing to handstands and I lost my Right Chest, Lats, Traps, Triceps to complete atrophy in July 2013. I was off training for nearly 2 years.

Whoa! How did that happen? And how exactly do you lose atrophy in all those muscles at the same time? That must've been tough not being able to train those 2 years!

Originally Posted by mandheers

I don't think I can get back to that frame, but I will stay around it.

I think you're doing much much better than most of us here so please continue to inspire people like me and those around you. (Of course this is until I break your record)

EDIT: For those who don't know, Mandheer and Alpha (through this thread) have really contributed in my fitness journey by keeping it real!

[amitoj]

I see a lot of concern on this thread about how newbies perceive supplements. As if that's the supplements fault
But leaving that aside, I don't see any newbies on this thread
And even if there are any here, if they are using TBHP as the sole source of information for their workout questions, then God help them!

There is a right way to training and there is a wrong way. The right way is the one that suits your body type, your susceptibilities and your strengths. The wrong way is anything that looks like a shortcut. Because more often than not, you will end up hurting yourself down that shorter route.

Mandheer, kudos to you for the numbers you are lifting and all the hard work that has gone into it. I agree with you that insanity kind of workouts are not for everyone. Have you noticed how extremely fit everyone is in their videos? I doubt they got into that shape by doing what they are selling.

It has been two months since I stepped into the gym. But that's because now I have replaced gym with biking. In this part of the world, the biking season is short. 6 months or 8 if you can brave the cold. Off season is when I will return to the gym for workouts that will supplement and support biking. Plan is to be able to do at least one ride of 400kms next year. I have already met my goal of doing a 200km ride this year. Met it twice actually and will do a couple more 200k rides before this season is over.

[Urban_Nomad]

Finally - Some retribution for supplements. Didn't feel like even opening this thread for the absolute demonization of supplements and the same being followed very closely by the word "steroids". Unbelievable!!

Anyhow, my query:

How much should one rest between sets? How much is too little and how much is too much? I am following a bodyweight (full body) routine which looks something like this (3 - 4 times a week):

- Chin ups
- Jump squats (15 reps * 3 sets)
- Push up (variations - Diamond and shoulder. Rep range anywhere between 15 - 30. 3 sets)
- Lunges (quick movement. 10 each side * 3)
- Burpees (Simple ones. No jump on top. 10*3)
- Tricep Dips (hands behind me. Legs straight and feet on the table)
- 5 minute Abs routine

I try and keep my rest time limited to one minute but its almost impossible as I move along the routine. My heart is beating so hard it feels like it will explode out of my chest. I have to often give it 2 or even more minutes before I can move on to the next set

Look forward to the recommendations. Thank you!

[Red Liner]

Urban, as you build your stamina, your rest time will reduce. Dont push yourself way too much out of your comfort zone because that is where accidents happen. This is a hiit work out.

I used to do the 300 work out, there was no way i could match up. But i eased up slow and easy.

Keep a tab on your timeouts over the course of a month and see how the graph moves. This isnt fool proof, because for a work out like this, a lot depends on your mind too. Its far more a mental workout as opposes to a physical one. Sometimes its good, sometimes not.

I also recomend mixing those variations a fair bit, keep doing something different to shock your body and something for your mind to look forward to.

These days i gravitate more towards yoga. Less stress on the body and mind, and ofcourse no more supplements and a humongous protein intake!

[straight6]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

I hope you are trying supplements as a last resort. Joining a gym, lifting for 3 months and thinking about supplements owning to no progress is the trend these days. Do not fall for it. Muscle building is a long painful but enjoyable process. Work hard, stay consistent and be patient. Eventually it will lead to success in most cases. Try supplements only if this doesn't work out.

I've been working out for more than 20 years (with few breaks in between due to accidents and injuries etc) and have tried many supplements already and have a certification from Talwalkars too. Just wanted to know the review of that place in recent times .

[Piyadassi]

Came across a very interesting website:
https://africanbodybuildersavenue.wordpress.com/page/2/

Instagram is @africanbodybuildersavenue

Their range of equipment is helluva interesting.

[CliffHanger]

Guys, I really do not have the time to give properly thought replies which I think is very important in this discussion. And I want to make my intentions clear:

- I'm not here to promote achievements from natural bodybuilding
- I'm not here to attack people who use supplements

I just want to give my learning from my experience over a decade and a half, spending several hundred hours in the gym, in front of the computers reading science, seeing and talking to several hundred people in the gym and outside. I can talk about this topic for several days; coaching is not a "Typing posts" job but rather a collaborative effort for a reasonably long period. Remember you can read plenty of things, see plenty of things, but when you actually start doing, things don't appear to be as you perceived.

I personally believe there are no right or wrong choices in life. I myself learnt a lot of things going on the wrong direction. What I want you all to know is Health and Fitness doesn't give you too many options to go wrong, and if you see failures, it shouldn't let you neglect Health and Fitness altogether. I have seen most who resort to supplements, do that.

And, my stand on supplements is very clear as in my last post( I would suggest read it again now). To add to it - Our daily life is filled with long hours in traffic, long working hours, adulterated foods -- 45 days Chicken, Hybrid Fruits, Pesticide filled Veggies, Adulterated milk, polluted air, water from unknown sources, etc. and to add supplements to it that go by "New Formula for Lean Mass", "Optimum performance Guaranteed", "Creatine Tablets that do not affect yor Kidneys", etc. is wrong at a very fundamental level. Yes, human bodies can take enormous abuse and can still recover, but where do you want to set the limit?

Pramod,

You either didn't read my original post properly or didn't understand it properly. I didn't write off Supplements altogether, I said that keep it as your last option for the reasons I've mentioned. If you are a very lean or a fat kid, with very low self-esteem, feeling like not being accepted by the society, gave a real effort at natural bodybuilding/weight loss and not seeing result, then think about supplements along with working on your self-esteem. For most others, put in the hard work in the initial couple of years, your body will know what you are up-to and will start responding accordingly, provided you show real intent and consistency. Your body is more capable, in adapting to things, than what you think. Just give it the time it needs.

Just because very few have done it, doesn't mean it is impossible for many. All I'm saying is get your fundamentals right and have patience, but in these times of instant gratification, no youngster is ready to do it.

ach1lles,

My answers to some of your questions -

Now, why do you, and many people here and elsewhere see not having used a "pinch of supplement" as something to be proud of?

When most just shake their supplement powders after workouts, we just pack our bags and move on to next things in the day. Everything regards to body, diet and health is taken care of in the background as we have set practices in place for years. We do not keep looking at ourselves in the mirrors, measuring ourselves in inch tapes, and keep thinking about our bodies and diet as a primary task all through the day. Trust me, as you grow old, start having a family, start thinking seriously about finances, etc. you will realize the value of every second of time.


Why is it only with exercise sciences that people always maintain all of the above? That you, your experience, your body, your habits are the only things that matter? Even for something as rudimentary as dancing, which is basically moving your musculoskeletal system in a rhythm and in sync with external audio input (I made it sound weird, didn't I?), regular people have no problems with a professional instructor but when it comes to the gym, building your body etc, people like you prefer to having figured stuff out on their own, with no professional experience, studies, or qualifications?

The adage is, You are what you eat, not what you dance! In my experience in different gyms, I have only seen the following -

- A coach who is a bodybuilder, who seemed to be all concerned about me only to push me to buy supplements from him eventually.
- A coach who is certified and has a big fat belly.
- A coach(in a few reputed gyms and certified too) who started his first interaction with me by asking about the supplements I take. He too eventually started pushing to buy supplements from him.
- A coach who trains many professional actors in Chennai. My friend is his client. Most times of the year, he looks all plump with chubby cheeks, when I question him, he says, "Buddy, two months", and after two months, he looks fit and lean and talks about fat burners, wheys, and all. And after four months, he is back to being plump with chubby cheeks. Trust me, people consider him a top of the line coach since top actors are his client.

And I have seen many many more and I'm yet to see someone who take real interest in you and spend several hours with you getting to know about you, genuinely watch your progress, course correct, train you for your long term wellness, etc. Nobody will take yourself seriously except yourself!

And regarding all the stuffs you guys read from those western forums, all I can say is, "You can read plenty of things, see plenty of things, but when you actually start doing, things don't appear to be as you perceived".


The fact is probably you, and many more like you struggle with your time in the gym early on, and the few of you who like it enough to stick with it for long figure stuff out in years what a professional could've taken care of for you in hours. Many, many quit soon and never make it to 7 years of "figuring yourself out". This is the absolute worst advice you could give to any beginner.


I started seeing improvements at the 6th month of starting gym, just before turning 18. The key is to start at the right age. If you are in your 30s and want a perfect body suddenly, you have to know you missed the bus long back.


Though if avoiding 'strenuous workouts' was the only way to mental wellbeing, we won't have professional sports.


I didn't ask to avoid 'strenuous workouts', I said know what you are getting into. Often times one gets to read only one side of the story, there is always the other side.

--------------------

Before I end this discussion, I would like to quote below a PM I recieved from a fellow Senior-Bhpian -

"Thank you for your post on the above thread - it is probably the most sensible one I have read on the subject in a long time, on or off this forum "

Finally, people like myself, Samurai, and the Bhpian mentioned above, know the inexplicable pleasures of having long term health and fitness practices. The joy of looking young to our age, the joy of feeling light and energetic throughout the day, the joy of looking at our skin glow, the joy of knowing how our body is reacting to our mind and vice versa, the joy of having no health related troubles, the joy of coming of naturally confident, and many many more. Trust me it makes to look at life differently and so much more positively. Anyways, I'm done with this topic and I really do not have the time to make properly thought posts in this topic. As always my suggestion on this topic will be, "Have a clear goal of what exactly what you want and think on the long term".

Cheers all!

[amitoj]

As long as we are sharing our personal experiences, yesterday I went for a 70 mile bike ride in the afternoon. It wasn't my fastest ride at an average speed of 15.6 mph with almost 4000 feet of climbing.
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/15724766

After the ride, I had a scoop of whey protein. Before going to bed, I had another scoop of casein. Woke up today morning, had a banana and went for a 24 mile bike ride, hit 5 PRs (that's Personal Record in Strava), averaged 18 mph with more than 1100 feet of climbing.
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/15738582

Had another scoop of whey protein after the ride and now I am ready to take on the day, play with kids, go shopping with wife, grill some chicken in the evening etc etc.

All of the above would have been impossible without proteins fueling my body and aiding its recovery.

Maybe 15 years back, proteins were a shady business. But science has come a long way since then. And as is usual the case in all other aspects, the old guard will continue to resist acknowledging that the world has moved on.

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

And I have seen many many more and I'm yet to see someone who take real interest in you and spend several hours with you getting to know about you, genuinely watch your progress, course correct, train you for your long term wellness, etc. Nobody will take yourself seriously except yourself!

I am lucky to be training with a guy for the past 14 months, who genuinely cares about me. He's a lot younger than me, but is one of the most successful instructors in the gym where I work out. He is also one of the relatively more educated and formally trained personal trainers.
When I began the journey, I told him, I don't aspire to have large voluminous muscles, rather a leaner, stronger build. My natural frame is quite wide.
However, he too, began the relationship with trying to sell me protein sourced by him, and also thought that maybe after a few months I would also start chasing large muscles.
But now, he understands that I would NEVER buy protein from him and that my training goals remain unchanged.
But, I agree, it is a difficult relationship to maintain, and a fickle one too.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

And I have seen many many more and I'm yet to see someone who take real interest in you and spend several hours with you getting to know about you, genuinely watch your progress, course correct, train you for your long term wellness, etc. Nobody will take yourself seriously except yourself!

Sorry I missed this part of the post.

Just because you have not seen one, doesn't mean they don't exist. I can genuinely vouch for my trainer's interest in my progress and well being.

Originally Posted by roy_libran

However, he too, began the relationship with trying to sell me protein sourced by him

Herbalife or Amway?

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Herbalife or Amway?

Muscle*** something.. Don't remember.

I have been exclusively on ISOPURE since the beginning, and cycle on and off it regularly.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

I have been exclusively on ISOPURE since the beginning, and cycle on and off it regularly.

I have tried ISOPURE, specifically their 0 carb low carb flavors. Found nothing to complain about, except for the price maybe. But then again, I dont see much choice in whey if you want to go for a low carb option.

[bblost]

I want to share a simple tip. Found it quite useful in my workouts.

StopWatch or Timer.
This is useful when you are doing heavy weights for fewer reps per set.
As soon as you complete the set, put on a timer for x mins.
This x can be anything from 2-5 mins.
I have found that 3 mins works perfect for me.
This allows you to recover enough before starting the next set.

Usually if you start too quick, then the set will suffer. Too late and its just wasted time spent idling in the gym.
So find your perfect recovery time and happy building.

PS: I know it sounds very basic but for me it was a A-Ha moment.

[fine69]

Originally Posted by bblost

PS: I know it sounds very basic but for me it was a A-Ha moment.

For Strength training, specifically programs like 5x5, its better to start the next set when you feel ready because you are hitting PRs daily and a 2-min window today might prove deadly next week and for sure next month.

In Strength training as you start loading really heavy weights your recovery time would be impacted as well.

Since most of us regular Joes won't be competing in the next tournament its better to just start once you're ready. Don't worry about missing any gains if you rest for 4 mins instead of 2. A single workout was never meant to add inches as such.