[alpha1]

Good now that after so long the thread is back to exercise and iron game instead of supplements and chemical "warfare".

***

ST7677: The thing is that amount of protein digested and converted to muscles has little to do with the amount of proteins you are eating. Its got to do with:
1. The amount of testosterone in your blood = genetic
2. The percentage of that being used in anabolic pursuits (=muscle building) = again genetic
3. Local anabolic effects = resistance training.

Even if you take humongous amounts of protein, if you body doesn't know what to do with it - it will burn it as fuel.

There are whole lot of VEGAN bodybuilders, who do not take even milk or its derivatives. Extra proteins is good, but realistically speaking its the type of training and rest cycles that count most - and carbs to fuel the training.

***

Ashok, the problem staying with only compound movements is that smaller muscles like biceps, triceps and deltoids get taxed only in a limited range of motion.
Lets take the bench press as example - your chest (and deltoids) are involved in first 1/2 of the motion. 2nd half is primarily front deltoids and triceps.

So does the triceps get worked out. Yes of course.
Will the triceps look bulging and massive like a bodybuilder.
NO. For this you need to work on full range of motion - preferably with max tension at the full tricep stretch part.
That where all the skull crushers, triceps extension and pulleys come into picture.

Same case holds for biceps.
And infact, deltoids do get good WO from overhead presses, but the lateral and rear head needs some thing for its own. Thats why ppl do side lateral raises etc.

***

Now coming to the point about Squats and deadlifts.
The T levels and anabolic percentage is fixed genetically.
Any increase is T levels from squats or deadlifts is minimal over the baseline figures.
The muscle growth is not primarily because of this delta increase in T levels.

The workout related muscle growth is fueled by the local effects = IGF-1.
This can be fueled by ANY heavy and prolonged lifting.
You can do squats or leg press or even leg extension to achieve the same.

In fact the biggest fallacy I keep seeing and reading and hearing is that if you want to grow biceps do squats!

Well if that is true then what about the wheelchair bound natural bodybuilders?

***

Whenever I increase my food intake compared to normal sedentary one - one known outcome is increased lard on waist - which I am sure everyone must've experienced.

In addition, I also notice a big bloated tummy, like those malnourished Somalian kids on newspapers.
Anyone experienced the same? Makes me feel like pot bellied middle age "uncle"

***

How many ppl actually do slow controlled movements here?

***

PS: I almost forgot to congratulate you mandheers - nice work you've done on your physique.
But I am really surprised that you managed to get the pump from 4x4 regime.
Where did learn about this 4 reps routine?

[ashokrajagopal]

Alpha1, pls see my replies inline.
Thanks for the feedbacks !

Originally Posted by alpha1

Good now that after so long the thread is back to exercise and iron game instead of supplements and chemical "warfare".

Yeah, the lesser known Iron warfare -- that's my favourite kind because it gives me multiple thoughts to try out.

Ashok, the problem staying with only compound movements is that smaller muscles like biceps, triceps and deltoids get taxed only in a limited range of motion.
Lets take the bench press as example - your chest (and deltoids) are involved in first 1/2 of the motion. 2nd half is primarily front deltoids and triceps.

So does the triceps get worked out. Yes of course.
Will the triceps look bulging and massive like a bodybuilder.
NO. For this you need to work on full range of motion - preferably with max tension at the full tricep stretch part.
That where all the skull crushers, triceps extension and pulleys come into picture.

Same case holds for biceps.
And infact, deltoids do get good WO from overhead presses, but the lateral and rear head needs some thing for its own. Thats why ppl do side lateral raises etc.

***
I am not sure if I agree. Because I do not think this is a good argument for Bodybuilding even until you reach advanced stage.
This is fine for somebody who has been lifting consistently for 2 years or so. I will put it clearer.
I am sure you agree to the point that only very few are born with the genertics and most of the general population are either Ecto or Endo morphic. Lack of strength both ways.
I see kids in mid and late teens coming to the gym -- skinny, tall, good bone structure, but painfully skinny. ( I was there too)
Cant do one pushup, cant even hang on to the pull up bar for 5 seconds.
The third day, I see them doing preacher curls, concentration curls, lat pull downs, tricep extensions and what not. What's the result ? They either quit working out in a few months or fall the 'roid' way.
Reason ? Too much emphasis on small muscles.

Small muscles are what they are -- SMALL. Put SMALL effort for them. There is no way doing 3 exercises for Biceps twice a week and spending half a session on Legs altogether will BUILD a good physique. It never would.

If you want body builder like triceps and biceps, you obviously need to do these exercises. But what about your back, quads, hamstrings, glutes etc ? I somehow cannot digest the idea of wanting to look like a bodybuilder only for may be 5% of muscles. If you are doing 3 different exercises for each muscle group, well and good, you may work your arms the same way.

I never advocate ignoring any muscle. Close grip chinup is what I advice for any beginner. In fact you dont have to pick up a barbell to curl for the first year. Chinups are taxing enough. Any more effort on the biceps means more time, and means losing time on bigger muscles.
To put it clearer, if you are body building or powerlifting, there are bigger muscle groups that need work. If they need X amount of work, these two muscles in arms would require only x/3 work or so. I have no problem with people working their biceps how many ever number of times a week. But if they are doing it by replacing legs or back or chest workouts, chicken legs are waiting. I cant count the number of times I myself have chickened out of swims being conscious about my legs. ( My body building days -- the ill advised teenage lifting).


Now coming to the point about Squats and deadlifts.
The T levels and anabolic percentage is fixed genetically.
Any increase is T levels from squats or deadlifts is minimal over the baseline figures.
The muscle growth is not primarily because of this delta increase in T levels.

The workout related muscle growth is fueled by the local effects = IGF-1.
This can be fueled by ANY heavy and prolonged lifting.
You can do squats or leg press or even leg extension to achieve the same.

In fact the biggest fallacy I keep seeing and reading and hearing is that if you want to grow biceps do squats!

Well if that is true then what about the wheelchair bound natural bodybuilders?

alpha1, its not exactly like "you will have biceps only if you squat". But squats do give a small pump to your biceps too. Try gripping the bar hard. It is not a fallacy -- I have first hand experience right here -- The 5 months that I have been lifting this time, I have never curled a bar. I have done chinups on and off, but not more than say 4 times -- thats 40 reps in all -- my biceps is the biggest it has ever grown.
If you want ripping out huge biceps, there is no way you can build it without curls. You need curls. But building your biceps is like painting your house. You can do it after you finish everything else too. But the foundations cannot be done that way.

***

Whenever I increase my food intake compared to normal sedentary one - one known outcome is increased lard on waist - which I am sure everyone must've experienced.

In addition, I also notice a big bloated tummy, like those malnourished Somalian kids on newspapers.
Anyone experienced the same? Makes me feel like pot bellied middle age "uncle"


Oh yes, I experience these too. But I dont really care anymore. Increase in take in cycles. Two days heavy food, two days moderate, one meal skipped (fasting), again two days heavy food -- that way.
When you are reducing food, try to get things which are high in calories in small quantity even. Eg. Potatos.
This keeps me saner about the belly.
***

How many ppl actually do slow controlled movements here?

I do. For squats, deadlifts ( top half), bench press, pull ups. Not for all sets, and I do not plan for it. I just decide before the lift that this is going to be a slow one.
I usually do 5X5, and slow controlled movements come up usually in the 3rd set if I am finishing reps okay.

***

Where did learn about this 4 reps routine?

When I googled 4X4 I got some results about 4 exercises 4 times a week kind of stuff. It really dint look like 4 sets of 4 reps each. Still researching.

[mandheers]

@ alpha1: Here's the link to the program I followed, albeit with modifications. Bodybuilding.com - Maximize Your Results!

4 x 4 is essentially an approach, and not a workout per se. Wherein you do 4 working sets of 4 reps each. This is a High Intensity Training (HIT) program and I can show you before after pics of myself, but that's not important, I guess my current condition is proof itself.

My brother follows 4x4 and is way bigger, muscular and still ripped than me. He is 90kgs and even lifts more than me.

I prefer to build my body and I have always been good at power movements; just that I don't enjoy them.

I have squatted 450lbs; shrugged over 500; rowed & benched 270; deadlifted 410; pressed 175 and let me not even go to the leg press.

But the point is what you are trying to achieve. I don't advocate a mix of bodybuilding exercises and powerlifting since every bodybuilder trains mostly in isolation to complete failure and which may cause poor form or injury owing to fatigued stabilizer/ supporting muscles, when performing compounds.

I go superslow; atleast I try to; only on eccentrics and I just push the weight explosively away on the concentric. This has been my growth principle.

I was 82kgs in 2005 end when I started lifting again; post my back injury and plateaued at 87; and that would be 2006 end or 2007.

That's around when I started the 4x4, and it is now incorporated in almost every program for a major movement; every training session and I have been growing fairly enough even considering I take time off gym too frequently.

You may give it a shot if you into building; no harm done there.

@ ashokrajagopal: I will admit all this talk on exercise and strength etc got me back to the squat rack yesterday and Monday.

I am gingerly trying to get some conditioning back; avoiding any strain; in the lower back, and I will thank you and a link on Mehdi's website which spoke of squatting etiquette.

Currently it's just the olympic bar, and am happy with that alone. Let's see how it fares. The hack-squat is where I will pile up the weight if need be.

[SohailPistawala]

I have started liking this thread again, Thank you mandheer, Alpha1 and ashokrajagopal.

I keep doing different programmes be is 6 week, 8 week, 12 week, Cutting, Loading, Supersets, Drop sets, Pyramids, circuits, Functional ,etc and once tried the Fst-7 by hany rambod. Currently doing a programme by Jim Stoppani. I love lifting, hence like to try out different workouts. I am happy with the result that i got in my past years of lifting.

Thats all for now.

[mandheers]

Originally Posted by mandheers

I have squatted 450lbs; shrugged over 500; rowed & benched 270; deadlifted 410; pressed 175 and let me not even go to the leg press.

Forgot to mention: Free Squat 360lbs, Smith Squat 450lbs and I swore never to squat on Smith again.

[ashokrajagopal]

^^ mandheers, that makes more sense. Ideally your bench press << squat << deadlift for a normal person. I dont know where smith machine squat should fit in this equation.

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by mandheers

@ alpha1: Here's the link to the program I followed, albeit with modifications. Bodybuilding.com - Maximize Your Results!

Checked this one out -- so its a rep scheme of 4-6, which could be 5 as well. Will give it a go very soon.


@ ashokrajagopal: I will admit all this talk on exercise and strength etc got me back to the squat rack yesterday and Monday.

I am gingerly trying to get some conditioning back; avoiding any strain; in the lower back, and I will thank you and a link on Mehdi's website which spoke of squatting etiquette.

Currently it's just the olympic bar, and am happy with that alone. Let's see how it fares. The hack-squat is where I will pile up the weight if need be.

@mandheers, that's the name of the game !! I am happy you got back to the barbell. Hope you find it home and go a long way !!

By the way, there is absolutely no need to thank me. Its Mehdi's website and I just did something like google does. Show you the site. !

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by SohailPistawala

I have started liking this thread again, Thank you mandheer, Alpha1 and ashokrajagopal.

Sohail, you would be interested in checking this link out.
In fact for all those people watching this thread and had been thinking a li'l too much was talked about supplements.

Training Lessons from Prison Guys | StrongLifts.com

It talks about how people in prison train and how very well they shape out to be good powerlifters without slow releasing proteins or meals in 3 hours interval or pre workout and post workout designer shakes.

That said, I cannot take anything out of supplementation. Supplementation plays its part in every successful bodybuilder/powerlifter's life. All you have to remind yourself is that supplementation is what it is -- supplementation only.

Lets face it, most of us cannot afford the time to cook all our meals and have a perfect diet. Some of us can barely churn out a few minutes for meals. Supplementation does help people with a time constraint.

As I have read somewhere, the first and foremost thing you have to do is SHOW UP at the gym. Getting enough nutrition, rest etc are all to follow, but the most important thing is to be there and give it your best.

It is in this order that things are
1. Exercise
2. Nutrition
3. Rest

[alpha1]

Ok, this 4x4 is actually the MaxOT approach.

[mandheers]

Ok, so now from exercises to nutrition.

Let's check what are the food habits of people on this forum in general.

@ ashokrajagopal: Saw the link on prison, and yes they do not have expensive supplements; but they have chicken + steaks + mashed potatoes + tuna + beans + peas + boiled veggies + milk + oatmeal + bread + juice + eggs + kidney beans etc served across 3 square meals.

It is not like the regular prisons in India with 'daal chawal' or 'roti sabzi'; there is a series on Nat Geo on prison life; and it's bad-@##.

Most of those guys are steroid infused criminals. It is easy to get roids in prison, they come cheap and smuggled from cross border. It's drugs and dope that's expensive. Not roids.

These guys have to be strong as they fight it out for their lives with the many gangs that get formed in prison. Do look up Nat Geo, they might still be running it.

------

That said, I have relied heavily on supplements. Used to consume 6 scoops of Whey, and that's almost 150gms protein directly from Whey alone, apart from regular dietary protein.

On other occasions I have also taken MRPs, 1 packet for either lunch or dinner, supported by 4 scoops of Whey through the day.

But I have always consumed whey servings with meals; this aids uptake as well. Unless it is post workout which is in water; or preworkout which is in milk.

I am a thorough non-vegetarian and eat a minimum of 1 serving of it per day. (no eggs are not included )

I love eggs, with yolk or without, doesn't matter if cooked. It's only the hard boiled ones where I avoid yellow, taste to blame.

I love fruits, papayas, apples essentially and bananas sometimes etc.

I don't mind vegetables, but I prefer them boiled and I like mashed potatoes too.

Dal + Rice is welcome anytime, any number of times.

The most favorite vegetarian preparation is anything to do with Paneer.

I try eating every 3-4 hours; and it can be anything filling.

Also, I strongly recommend anybody lifting weights to have a strong diet; and surely go ahead and use supplements; they work sure; but what people forget is that they are aptly named 'SUPPLEMENTS' since they are only supposed to supplement your regular food intake.

What I don't like is people take to supps and supps alone; and minimize food intake. I have done that in the past, to no avail, and will never recommend.

So let's have some nutrition talk here.

What do you consume pre & post workout; these two being the most important meals for any lifter. (of course breakfast and bedtime are too, but that later)

I eat a small meal prior to workout, essentially composed of complex carbs+protein+vitamins; keep sipping water between workout, eat a small meal immediately post workout, whey protein (essentially)+glucose/simple carbs (banana rarely, and I skip the glucose when leaning).

Egg whites, Pulses, Rotis, Leafly greens, Sprouts, Salads, Chicken, Red Meat, Fish, Soyabean, Bananas, Paneer, Apples, Papaya, Oats, Corn Flakes, Pear, Nuts etc are top priority.

I divide the above into at least 5-6 small meals throughout the day.
Avoid any carbs/fruits etc. after evening.

Get 7-8 hrs of sleep, drink enough water, stretch muscles adequately, track progress, take pics, keep a log of the weight you lift and how many reps you pushed/pulled.

Breakfast needs to be BIG, Lunch slightly smaller and Dinner the smallest meal of the day; but all meals need to have quality proteins; and ideally avoid simple carbs post 6pm. (I have rarely taken casein, but protein blends like Myofusion & NitroCore work wonders for me)

All the in-between-meal snacks need to be ideally fruits or protein bars or egg whites or salad etc.

For me exercise is only 20%; balance is 60% nutrition and 20% sleep/rest.

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by mandheers

Ok, so now from exercises to nutrition.


@ ashokrajagopal: Saw the link on prison, and yes they do not have expensive supplements; but they have chicken + steaks + mashed potatoes + tuna + beans + peas + boiled veggies + milk + oatmeal + bread + juice + eggs + kidney beans etc served across 3 square meals.

It is not like the regular prisons in India with 'daal chawal' or 'roti sabzi'; there is a series on Nat Geo on prison life; and it's bad-@##.

Most of those guys are steroid infused criminals. It is easy to get roids in prison, they come cheap and smuggled from cross border. It's drugs and dope that's expensive. Not roids.

These guys have to be strong as they fight it out for their lives with the many gangs that get formed in prison. Do look up Nat Geo, they might still be running it.

------

mandheers, I'd still like to believe that it is many times over difficult to weight train in prison, as compared to weight train outside. It would be easy to get roids in prison, but I dont think it is easier than outside. The food list is great, but I dont think it is better than an athlete working out outside. And these guys are lifting weights northward of 500lbs. It is a big deal anyway.

That said, I have relied heavily on supplements. Used to consume 6 scoops of Whey, and that's almost 150gms protein directly from Whey alone, apart from regular dietary protein.
.
.
.
All the in-between-meal snacks need to be ideally fruits or protein bars or egg whites or salad etc.

Impeccable diet choices. Most guys cannot have this much of variety nor the discipline to follow this. Me included.

For me exercise is only 20%; balance is 60% nutrition and 20% sleep/rest.

Not sure if I agree with the numbers here. Okay, I am sure, I dont agree.
For me exercise is 50%.

I have realized that most real working people can never have 6 meals a day unless everyday is a holiday. For me two servings of fruits and vegetables every day is also impractical. And having more than two servings of protein per day is also highly impractical mostly to the wallet.

Look at the practical side of it. You have to have 8 hours of sleep, which presumably starts at 10 PM, and ends at 6 am. You have 12 hours before it becomes dark, after which you are not supposed to have many carbs. You have to squeeze out 1 hour min for workout, and 30 mins of warmup, travel to gym, cool down etc. That is 10-11 hours when you have to squeeze out 5 meals, assuming you take a light dinner. That means eating every other hour. Even a glass of milk, a few nuts and a serving of fruit-- takes at least 15 mins of time(prep included). The time you spent on eating itself would come up to around 2 hours of time. When would a man work then ?
It becomes impractical if this is not what you do for a living.

It might be the best way to go in bodybuilding, but I really do not think it is a must for the real people whose aim is only to look better and be more healthy. And I don't believe in the idea that human body is built for smaller portions of food throughout the day. Since our forefathers where hunters that would mean they hunt through out the day if they were to eat even 4 meals a day.

If I were to advise anyone on nutrition, it would be short and just this much.

1. Eat whole foods

2. Try not to eat synthetic foods, artificial sugars, aerated drinks, processed junk food etc.

3. Have good amount of protein in your food.

4. Have multivitamins and other minerals, fatty acids etc. required.

From my experience, this much and working really hard is more than enough for building a good body. Not compatible for pro competing, but then better than most people in the planet.

[mandheers]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

Not sure if I agree with the numbers here. Okay, I am sure, I dont agree.
For me exercise is 50%.

I have realized that most real working people can never have 6 meals a day unless everyday is a holiday. For me two servings of fruits and vegetables every day is also impractical. And having more than two servings of protein per day is also highly impractical mostly to the wallet.

Look at the practical side of it. You have to have 8 hours of sleep, which presumably starts at 10 PM, and ends at 6 am. You have 12 hours before it becomes dark, after which you are not supposed to have many carbs. You have to squeeze out 1 hour min for workout, and 30 mins of warmup, travel to gym, cool down etc. That is 10-11 hours when you have to squeeze out 5 meals, assuming you take a light dinner. That means eating every other hour. Even a glass of milk, a few nuts and a serving of fruit-- takes at least 15 mins of time(prep included). The time you spent on eating itself would come up to around 2 hours of time. When would a man work then ?
It becomes impractical if this is not what you do for a living.

It might be the best way to go in bodybuilding, but I really do not think it is a must for the real people whose aim is only to look better and be more healthy. And I don't believe in the idea that human body is built for smaller portions of food throughout the day. Since our forefathers where hunters that would mean they hunt through out the day if they were to eat even 4 meals a day.

If I were to advise anyone on nutrition, it would be short and just this much.

1. Eat whole foods

2. Try not to eat synthetic foods, artificial sugars, aerated drinks, processed junk food etc.

3. Have good amount of protein in your food.

4. Have multivitamins and other minerals, fatty acids etc. required.

From my experience, this much and working really hard is more than enough for building a good body. Not compatible for pro competing, but then better than most people in the planet.

I am a 'real working man'; for the past 8 years; and still find time to work all day and deliver. Since now I workout at night, my day looks like:

7-7:30am: wake up
8-8:15am breakfast: oats + 1 scoop whey + multi + fruit
11am snack: fruit or eggs + toast
2pm lunch: home food + 1 scoop whey + fish oil pills etc
5:30pm snack: salad or boiled eggs or protein bar
8:30 preworkout: 1 scoop + milk or curd + aminos
10-10:30pm postworkout: 2 scoops whey + aminos + home food + fish oil pills etc
11-11:30pm: hit the sack

My office commute takes 1 hour mornings and 1-2hours evenings, and on good days I reach work around 9am, and leave for home around 6:30pm.

Through my day I squeeze in board meetings, catching up with friends, team-time, occasional facebook and TBHP and finally sometime with family once home, everything.

What can I say, I am a fast eater and still practical. The pantry is fully catering and we have a full fledged food court, so the prep is ruled out on almost everything since I'm not the one cooking. My lunch takes the longest at 30 minutes since it's with the team. However if you have calculated it at 2 hours per day then I guess I can afford that luxury.

All said, I can count the number of guys I've come across who were bigger than me, or lifted more than me, or both, and it requires a bit keeping it that way.

Forefathers were thousands of years ago too; neither did they have as big traps then nor the means to get that much food. The human body and form has far since evolved and it wouldn't be fair comparing us to them.

That said, I feel you will not take anything from my experience, as you have your set of thorough opinions & assumptions and continue asking/retorting/assuming things which I'm starting to feel is to mock and shows lack of respect; so I'm done answering your queries/ remarks. This post however is for those whom it might help.

[alpha1]

Ashok and Mandheer, our forefathers were designed to survive.
That means eating whatever you can, however much you can while it is there, because no on knew about tomorrow.

But in any case, if you diet is primarily meat = say about one kill per day ~ 1-2kg of meat everyday. You won't be able to eat anything else throughout the day if you have that much of meat.

Unfortunately, our bodies haven't really evolved much from those days. We are still built for speed and stamina rather than strength. (no wonder its so difficult to increase your 1RM compared to running another 100m)
We still behave like a herd of wildebeest when we are in a mob/crowd of humans.


Mandheer is absolutely right about US prisons. We cannot take them as role model of any sort. The US prisons are rife with steroids. The prisoners, their training, their food cannot be matched by even well to do Indians in that case.

Another thing is that since these are the guys who have survived since teenage in the big bad world of their because of their physical prowess mostly - they are again genetic freaks. You cannot emulate them.

[brraj]

@mandheers - Have started the 5x5 program from stronglifts, Lets see how much i will be able to lift after 3month program.

Thanks for the info.

[mandheers]

Originally Posted by brraj

@mandheers - Have started the 5x5 program from stronglifts, Lets see how much i will be able to lift after 3month program.

Thanks for the info.

I found some strength training PDFs in my folders, will post them for everyone. I don't follow it, but surely works and might help you. As rightly pointed by alpha1 earlier, my routine is loosely based around MaxOT. (maximum overload training)

My goal is always alternating between size and definition. The stronglifts program is great for building strength and in turn pack muscle.

Originally Posted by alpha1

Ashok and Mandheer, our forefathers were designed to survive.
That means eating whatever you can, however much you can while it is there, because no on knew about tomorrow.

But in any case, if you diet is primarily meat = say about one kill per day ~ 1-2kg of meat everyday. You won't be able to eat anything else throughout the day if you have that much of meat.

Unfortunately, our bodies haven't really evolved much from those days. We are still built for speed and stamina rather than strength. (no wonder its so difficult to increase your 1RM compared to running another 100m)
We still behave like a herd of wildebeest when we are in a mob/crowd of humans.


Mandheer is absolutely right about US prisons. We cannot take them as role model of any sort. The US prisons are rife with steroids. The prisoners, their training, their food cannot be matched by even well to do Indians in that case.

Another thing is that since these are the guys who have survived since teenage in the big bad world of their because of their physical prowess mostly - they are again genetic freaks. You cannot emulate them.

Totally agree with you on the primitive diet alpha1, if it's meat then it would last; owing to limited cooking options then too.

Lol @ wilderbeast; agreed again.