[ramzsys]

Just that we have said, that woman had the right to roam anywhere, wear any dress, socialize with anyone she wants. Of course the constitution guarantees that and even without the legal guarantee, it is the hallmark of a modern society.

In a similar angle, there's rights for the classes of men that the accused belongs too: they too have a right to have a relationship- so that they don't treat women as a sexual object..

Just few days back, we had a news report in 'the hindu'. It says, sex ratio is still declining- means more male births than female births and the ratio is like for 110:98 for the year 2010.

Now where will the rest of the 12 men depend upon for a relationship- this is not a perfect illustration, but then we all faced/facing shortage of matrimonial profiles to look forward.

Too much of money chasing few goods results in goods behaving like premium goods, such that the lower strata is bereft of those basic goods of life.

Stealing is wrong, no denying that, the law exists to take care of that. But beyond that, let us all debate why the thief stole the good, instead of debating about which way must the thief be hanged, for there is no civility in such debate.

The remorseless has no place on earth. I have no contrary opinion on that.

[akhil_007]

Is hanging the culprits in public too much to ask for? Call me emotional but his words indicate that he is beyond "reformable". We should set an example, in such rarest of rare cases, hang them in public. Let other potential rapists never dare to play with a girl's life.

[ramzsys]

Originally Posted by akhil_007

Is hanging the culprits in public too much to ask for? Call me emotional but his words indicate that he is beyond "reformable". We should set an example, in such rarest of rare cases, hang them in public. Let other potential rapists never dare to play with a girl's life.

Now that you have vented out, hope you have a good nights sleep. But i doubt, the humidity is a bit too much.

[GrammarNazi]

I wonder WHY such obvious cases are heard for such long times by Judges, but somehow these characters try to manipulate any topic very weirdly! See :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEVJCDvpXH8

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by JLS

However, I hold judiciary even more responsible in delaying justice even in straight forward cases.

Two main pillars of legal systems - Judiciary and Police - are not able to function efficiently and effectively,

Each and every law and order related problem boils down to this:
1. Ineffective police
2. Snail paced judiciary
EVERY.

If one reads about the histories of the so called developed nations, the public there was not much different from India. Corrupt, ready to abuse law, self judge & jury, mob violence ... the list just goes on.

They suddenly did not become more civilized. It was just that they improved their systems such that people feared law.

I would go on to say that 90% of human beings have ZERO intelligence to foresee their actions and consequences (including my/your closest friends and relations). Therefore expecting a civilized behavior BECAUSE they realize on their own = impossibility. For that we will have to wait for the next wave of evolution in human beings.

Originally Posted by akshaymahajan

The accused thought they were teaching the girl a lesson.

Self suggestion: Rationalizing your actions post event.
The accused is just playing baloney.

This is the classic ploy used by spouses who have relations outside their marriages.

[RSR]

I'm probably going to get brickbats for typing this comment, but type it I must.

Frankly, I'm not surprised at all by the vitriolic reactions in India against the documentary's director/producers and the BBC.

As a member so rightly mentioned, the documentary is merely holding a mirror to ourselves (as a country and as a people). We are repulsed by the hideously, grotesquely ugly thing we see in the mirror (which happens to be an accurate reflection). Instead of acknowledging the problems (let alone initiate action to fix things), we choose to fling a stone at the mirror and smash it to pieces for doing its job (provide a reflection).

This is something that is very typical of Third World countries, not only India. It's one of the reasons why the Third World will remain the Third World for a long, long time to come. Sigh!

There was this news that a woman professor in Germany had turned down a male Indian student's request for internship by pointing out to the violence against women & the rape culture in India and that neither she nor her female students were going to be comfortable working with an Indian male. She also seems to have mentioned that this was a common practice among other women professors in Germany (don't know how accurate it is).

What the German professor did was probably racist, unnecessary & unwanted stereotyping and a gross over-reaction, but I wouldn't want to blame her for wanting to protect herself and her female students - and I state this as an Indian male myself. It's only natural human instinct (also found in animals, humans belong to the animal kingdom afterall) to want to protect ourselves from those whom we perceive to be a threat.

This is what we (as a people) are going to see more and more in the future. India is (rightfully, if I may add) ranked as the 4th most dangerous country in the world to be born as a girl, along with hellholes like Afghanistan, D R Congo, Pakistan and Somalia:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/meghanca...to-be-a-woman/

If we don't fix this sad state of affairs soon, or at least initiate action on a war footing to make the country safer for women and girls (including those still inside their mothers' wombs), widespread international ostracism is bound to take place sooner rather than later.

Remember Apartheid South Africa, anyone? That country was ostracised severely and isolated internationally for the way it treated the majority of its citizens. It won't be long before Indians face the same situation. The only difference would be that Apartheid South Africa had an official policy of treating its majority as second-class citizens. India does not have an official policy (far from it), but there is little doubt that one-half of the country's population (less than one-half for sure, thanks to the tendency to kill girls even before they're born) does not have the same level of safety or security as the other half.

No country is going to boycott India and Indians officially (like they did with South Africa), but it is sure to be practised unofficially by the citizens of many countries in the future.

The German professor's deed is just an indication. She was perhaps stupid in stating the reason so bluntly, for she could have easily rejected the application stating other reasons (as she seems to indicate is being done by others).

As expected, the German Ambassador to India officially rebuked her, forcing her to apologise. Poor German Ambassador! One of the perils of his job is to do something even if he would personally prefer to do the exact opposite.

In case Indians haven't noticed, after the rapes and assaults against several foreign tourists in India (including the heinous kidnap and gang-rape of a Japanese woman), several countries (in the West, East, North and South) have officially issued travel advisories to their female citizens asking them to exercise the greatest caution if they plan to travel to India. Some of them have even gone to the extent of flatly asking their women to stay away from India for their own good (unless it is absolutely unavoidable).

Sound advice, I would say!

That's one of the reasons I feel sorry for the German Ambassador. His job requires him to do such contradictory things - advertise and praise the virtues of India in an open official letter to his fellow countrywoman one day and at the same time strongly advise his employer (the German government) to ensure that his countrywomen exercise extreme caution when they travel to India, or even avoid it altogether unless it's absolutely essential. What a tough job!

[amit]

I don't understand why the comments of the rapist is surprising to us or the westerner's. In the case of the westerner's I would say it's pure hypocrisy if they say they are shocked and attribute those thoughts to majority of Indian men.

Rapists anywhere in the world have the same thoughts. Even in west, a rapist will justify his act by saying, she asked for it or why was she wearing tight clothes or short clothes or why was she showing off her cleavage? Rape is never about pleasure or sex. It's about power.

The same BBC has this survey from 2010 about British women's thoughts on rape. 1/3rd blamed the women for dressing provocatively.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/8515592.stm

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by RSR

That's one of the reasons I feel sorry for the German Ambassador.!

Not wanting to distract to much from the original topic of this thread. I was pretty amazed that the German Abassador responsed. He has no authority or anything to say over what any German individual citizen does or say.

What I expect an ambassodor of a democracy to do, is to point out that anybody can make any statement. Its called free speech. It could be really stupid, racist, incorrect or even slander. It is an individual speaking, nothing to do with the governement. In a democray, with free speech, anybody can chose to ignore, have a debate, or take the prof to court.

What is very inappropiate is having a governement official tell a citizin off on what he or she should and should not say. That is not a role, nor a responsibility of any democratic goverment I'm aware off. At best the ambassodor could say that the professor opinion does not reflect the Germans' governement opinion on this matter. If he really spoke to her, he has overstepped his authority.

BTW, I thought the remarks of the professor were highly inappropiate.

Jeroen

[raghu.t.k]

Read this news article on the TOI, and not sure how much of the story on the email is true, but it immdly brought back the point raised by Gansan earlier ie. while nobody denies the gravity of the problem, it might be projecting a wrong image of the country.

The news article is titled "German prof rejects Indian student for ‘rape problem’" and the url is http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/46509508.cms

[Chetan_Rao]

The German professor is probably generalizing a bit too far, but I can't really blame her for erring on the side of caution.

As for the whole 'bad/wrong image' debate, what's really bad or wrong about it? It's a fact that we're in the same group as some of the worst countries in the world on the subject of female safety (including unborn fetuses), which should be enough for an aspiring 'superpower' to hang its head in shame. I'd prefer our society to introspect on its own accord and fix its ills, but if only international humiliation will give us the necessary push needed to fix our problems, so be it.

I still don't think the majority is bothered about the problem itself, they're all up in arms because it makes us look 'bad'. It would be for our own greater good if we got rid of our misplaced righteous indignation and fixed the problem rather than shutting everyone else up for voicing their opinion. Truth is heard loudest when it's silenced.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

I still don't think the majority is bothered about the problem itself, they're all up in arms because it makes us look 'bad'. It would be for our own greater good if we got rid of our misplaced righteous indignation and fixed the problem rather than shutting everyone else up for voicing their opinion. Truth is heard loudest when it's silenced.

That is a very interesting perspective. As with lots of things in life, people tend to be consumed by looking good, rather than doing good.

Jeroen

[JayPrashanth]

Originally Posted by Gansan

Actually we fare better than Sweden, UK and the USA.

1. Are you aware of the fact that Sweden considers sexual intercourse without a condom as rape, if the woman/partner insists that a condom be worn before the act? Case in point, Julian Assange of the WikiLeaks fame.

2. Do you have an idea of how many rapes go under reported in India due to societal misogyny.

Statistics don't lie, but they don't tell you the whole truth either. If we, as a society, cannot make India the "safest place in the world", for our mothers, sisters, wives and women in general, we've failed as a collective populace.

Every measure that can do its bit to achieve progress on this front must be welcomed, notwithstanding the mild collateral damage it may cause. It is for this reason that the BBC documentary by Leslee Udwin is worth watching.

Nobody in their right minds anywhere in the world, leave alone the west, will stereotype Indian men as rapists after watching the documentary, which in my humble opinion is balanced. Those who do so are narrow minded and racist. And we Indian men aren't so thin skinned, are we?

In fact, in the documentary, it is a male protagonist who was Jyoti Singh's tutor, who asks all the difficult questions that are otherwise asked by women. How's what for balance, and even this is now being questioned by the ultra feminist brigade that calls it a portrayal of a patriarchal mindset. So, there will always be conflicting opinions from different quarters. Bans only suppress free speech, and communication channels when cut, cause more damage.

As rational, thinking individuals, it's high time we distinguish between the cold hard truth, however uncomfortable it may be, and propaganda.

Cheers,

Jay

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by RSR

This is something that is very typical of Third World countries, not only India. It's one of the reasons why the Third World will remain the Third World for a long, long time to come. Sigh!

You've said all I wanted to say.

I see a lot of people stating that the documentary paints India in low light and it is filled with propaganda.

I ask you only one thing - Do you have a daughter, sister or wife? Are you comfortable with the society we have become? If yes ten not even God can help you.

My next point is - you may think that it paints India in a bad way - but the fact is - when would you wake up?

The proverbial sh*t has already hit the fan , and we are deep in it.

The scary part is the mindset - I have heard educated people talk trash and make it sound as if the Girl invited the whole thing. Unfortunately our patriarchical system is the root cause for all of this. Time it is thrown out of the window.

Can we change? I don't know. I would suggest absolute draconian laws followed to a T, we might just start to show some progress in probably 5-10 years.


Oh, and yes, I have watched the documentary, and find no reason why should it be banned.

[SchumiFan]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

The German professor is probably generalizing a bit too far, but I can't really blame her for erring on the side of caution.

As for the whole 'bad/wrong image' debate, what's really bad or wrong about it? It's a fact that we're in the same group as some of the worst countries in the world on the subject of female safety (including unborn fetuses), which should be enough for an aspiring 'superpower' to hang its head in shame. I'd prefer our society to introspect on its own accord and fix its ills, but if only international humiliation will give us the necessary push needed to fix our problems, so be it.

I still don't think the majority is bothered about the problem itself, they're all up in arms because it makes us look 'bad'. It would be for our own greater good if we got rid of our misplaced righteous indignation and fixed the problem rather than shutting everyone else up for voicing their opinion. Truth is heard loudest when it's silenced.

Can't fault her for erring on the side of caution? What proof did she have to reject the applicant on that basis? Can we assume every German as a Nazi then? And subject them to question about holocaust/Hitler in any applications they are required to fill? The boy has lost a chance at better education because of a wrong image created by a foreign channel.

The problem here is making India 'look' like only country with a rape problem. And that is not true. It is an issue present globally and with no solution in place anywhere.

It is rampant in some universities in USA and as others have pointed out, more prevalent in other countries which are well developed.

I take offence to the documentary because it was made in a way to put blame on India's men. They could have interviewed any students group that participated in the protest to get their views. Any male/female to provide an insight into how outraged the people are on this issue. But they didn't.

It should have carried details of what question was put forth to the people interviewed. I don't think it has that detail. Without that info, we will not fully know the reason behind those responses.

It gave a platform for those low-lives to air their thoughts. The issue was already well publicized in India through protests by common people. There was no need for a documentary like this to be taken.

If anything, I will question the SC as to why it is taking this long to produce a verdict on a high visibility case. They had no issues sarcastically pointing out the Govt's inaction in the Ganga cleaning project, whereas crores of cases are pending with them for justice.

The anger essentially should be pointed at the legal/justice system for letting these criminals still have a say.

[Gansan]

This is what Wikipedia says. Let us adjust for under reporting in India, and multiply India's number by six or seven. Even then it will not stack up with "advanced" countries. As for what amounts to rape in Sweden, suffice it to say even in India, I have known of cases of consensual sex which had suddenly turned in to rape and a case was filed.

scan the news paper stories of any country on a daily basis, and I am sure one or two rape cases will be found if one is looking for it. Why paint a picture that India is the rape capital of the world?

Suppose I say America is such an unsafe place that even a school kid may pull out a gun and shoot you dead anytime of the day, will you agree?

My grouse is against such one dimensional stories and stereo typing.


Edit: I read a news item yesterday that a rape victim in Saudi Arabia has been awarded a punishment of sixty lashes, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time! that is the kind of place this female should go and make a documentary about!