[carbookie]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

So you are saying the best way to get justice is to get media attention?

Now let me convey that to all the poor people waiting for decades for their share of justice and have nothing fancy in their case to attract attention. Why do they need any swift justice.

You have picked a small portion of my reply out of context to derive a totally opposite meaning of what I meant. I went on to say that media attention to cases are bad, case in point being Aarushi murder case. Since sarcasm was not working in my original reply, let me rephrase.

Justice is not, and should not, be dispensed based on "trial by media" or "public outrage". It should be dispensed based on our judicial system. That is how it is dispensed in 99.999% of cases anyways.

If people feel that there is something wrong with the SYSTEM, then ask for a change in the system. Bypassing the system is not the solution.

[vivekiny2k]

Originally Posted by carbookie

You have picked a small portion of my reply out of context to derive a totally opposite meaning of what I meant. I went on to say that media attention to cases are bad, case in point being Aarushi murder case. Since sarcasm was not working in my original reply, let me rephrase.

Justice is not, and should not, be dispensed based on "trial by media" or "public outrage". It should be dispensed based on our judicial system. That is how it is dispensed in 99.999% of cases anyways.

If people feel that there is something wrong with the SYSTEM, then ask for a change in the system. Bypassing the system is not the solution.

yikes, I didn't see the sarcasm part, well, at least I ended up reinforcing your point.

[sa_kiran]

Originally Posted by carboy

Please propose a better alternative than "innocent until proven guilty" for criminal cases - otherwise just saying that a better alternative exists and that all the legal scholars in the whole world are suppressing it because of vested interests really doesn't really take forward the discussion. Even if this were true how are we going to make one of them change their minds and actually spill out this secret better alternative?

Next, I hope that all the medical textbooks of the world be written in plain English so that we don't need to go a doctor. FWIW, I have never needed a lawyer in my life, but have needed doctors plenty of times. I think there is a bigger conspiracy afoot in the medical world than in the legal one.

Well, my point is that the judicial system has failed miserably. I also feel that there is no effort to make it better to deliver justice. If you want to be an ostrich, I can't help. I will always demand a better and sensible system. Comparing legal system with medical serves no purpose, it is like keeping the argument going, for the heck of it with no purpose. I've nothing more to add on this.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by sa_kiran

Well, my point is that the judicial system has failed miserably.

I agree. What I don't agree is that it can be rectified by changing the "Innocent until proven guilty" - that's the cornerstone of a fair justice system.

Originally Posted by sa_kiran

I also feel that there is no effort to make it better to deliver justice.

Again, I agree.

Originally Posted by sa_kiran

If you want to be an ostrich, I can't help. I will always demand a better and sensible system.

Sure, go ahead and demand - so will I. But if you want to say that removal of "Innocent until proven guilty" will make the system better and sensible - you better present some cogent arguments for it.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by carboy

I agree. What I don't agree is that it can be rectified by changing the "Innocent until proven guilty" - that's the cornerstone of a fair justice system.

I think even some European countries have the "Guilty until proven innocent" system?

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by nitinbose

Whatever said and done, I'd suggest students/young people to control what they can:

1. If you're sent to study, please focus on studies rather than hanging out with boyfriend(s) and/or girlfriend(s). There is plenty of time for dating later in life once you're settled.

2. Should you wish to go out, be sure to go in groups and preferably during daytime. If you really must go out at night, it must be to places where there are lots of people, especially on roads etc. Try to avoid distant trips as well (even within a city).

3. Avoid night clubs/pubs etc., which have a shady reputation. Remember you're sent by your parents to study.

4. Avoid unnecessary arguments with people. Sometimes its better to take a step back to have two steps forward.

5. Always use the public transport or friends' four wheelers and never autos/bikes/private transport, especially at night.

6. Be sure to inform someone where you're going and what time you would be back.

7. Parents should also be in a position to know the whereabouts & habits of their kids.

8. Avoid exposing at public places. If you're wearing party-wear or other fancy clothes, please use a gown when travelling on public roads/places/medium. You cant stop eyes prying on you and not everyone may be civilized!

Remember, criminals are always around. They're never scared or worried about the consequences. Its us who loose in the end, so lets be sure to pass on the above to all youngsters for a better and safer tomorrow.

Not everyone is academically oriented to focus most of their time on studies. What people do in their time is their personal choice. Rape is different from crime like getting mugged or pick pocket. Rape requires reconnaissance & plenty of planning by the perpetrator. It usually the women in 'helpless' situations are targeted. Dress, time & other factors don't matter. While the tips listed are good and safe to be on guard, they don't necessarily prevent rape.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by Gansan

I think even some European countries have the "Guilty until proven innocent" system?

Which are these countries which have the above for criminal cases?
The Govt, police etc would love to make it "Guilty until proven innocent". It makes their jobs easier and it also gives them more power over the citizens which they can abuse.

Citizens of most countries who would be ready to take to the streets if the Govt tries to change the law. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be the case in India. TADA/POTA and other laws which strangle citizen rights pass with practically no opposition from the citizens.

Even the Sharia law has(or atleast is supposed to) a presumption of innocence.

[SDP]

More cases
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/17948514.cms

I really wonder if all the perverts and rapists in this region are hiding under a rock and are completely oblivious to what is happening around them recently.

The message to such folks has to be really LOUD and clear.

[srishiva]

As written by Sohaila Abdulali, (she has written an op-ed in NY Times and it was so encouraging to read it amid all the gloom that we have created) we need to look at this more as a crime and stop attaching honour, virtue etc. The society needs to change the way it looks at this crime.
Only then we will stop talking about what dress should women wear, where and what time she should go out etc.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by carboy

Which are these countries which have the above for criminal cases?

France and former French colonies, I think. And also Mexico, if I remember right.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by Gansan

France and former French colonies, I think. And also Mexico, if I remember right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

In France, article 9 of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen 1789, which has force as constitutional law, begins: "Any man being presumed innocent until he has been declared guilty ...". The Code of Criminal Procedure states in its preliminary article that "any person suspected or prosecuted is presumed innocent for as long as their guilt has not been established" and the jurors' oath repeats this assertion (article 304).

What other countries in Europe?

[sgiitk]

What I hear from my daughter (High Court lawyer and Prisoner rights activist) is that over 60% of the rape cases, are actually cases of elopement or against affaire le cour. This why the courts often ask the lady whether she will like to marry the 'alleged' rapist. It is simply a case of the family objecting to the match, so we must keep this aspect in mind!

[sa_kiran]

Originally Posted by carboy

I agree. What I don't agree is that it can be rectified by changing the "Innocent until proven guilty" - that's the cornerstone of a fair justice system.

I did not say that "innocent till guilty" should not be used for all cases. However, they should be applied in open and shut cases. otherwise, the system wastes time and effort in establishing what is known and seen by people. It is like reinventing the wheel.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by sa_kiran

I did not say that "innocent till guilty" should not be used for all cases. However, they should be applied in open and shut cases.

Who decides if a case is "Open and shut case"? What are the neccessary and sufficient conditions for a case to be an open and shut one.

[ramzsys]

Originally Posted by sa_kiran

However, they should be applied in open and shut cases.

There is something called 'due process of law'. Any person has a right to be heard/represented in court, so all this 'innocent till proven guilty' treatment is essential.

Say, if you or me was picked up by the police and added as the 7th accused, how are we going to prove that we are innocent? Where do we get to prove that? And how?

It is a regret that the legal procedures are time consuming and this time delay is misused; but this cannot be a reason to scrap the existing process.