[Samurai]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

As far as I know you are the only person who dismissed and put down the post liberalization growth of the Indian economy in the 90s as some sort of misguided mistake made by Reagan and Bush.

Hmm, where did I say that? I started my career in 1990 and was immensely helped by 1991 reforms. It is not the same as deregulation by Reagan/Clinton/Bush. I can quote what I said before:

Originally Posted by Samurai

I was a working adult during the reforms of 1991. I know, lots of people think India turned from socialism to capitalism after 1991. What changed was regulation governing finance and industry. Starting and running a business became lot easier after 1991, because lots of red tape was removed. That unleashed lots of opportunities for Indian entrepreneurs. I would compare it with similar unleashing of opportunities when Rajiv Gandhi removed the restriction of import of computers and telecom technology in 1984. I was a direct beneficiary of this because I worked on telephony technology in the late 80s using computers, made possible by this shift in policy by Rajiv Gandhi. Check this 1989 article by CSM. Meanwhile, education/job reservations in various categories have only increased. PVN Rao actually implemented Mandal commission recommendation, lots of people don't realize that because it got hidden by the bigger event of financial reforms . Social programs have increased too, Only decrease in redistribution I can think of happened in 1997, when the tax slabs/rates were changed drastically. Don't confuse 1991 reforms with change in economic system. That didn't happen.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Aren't the terms "adequate affordable" equally fluid ? Who decides what is 'adequate'? The Left or pro-Big Govt parties just wants this power to decide what is 'adequate or affordable' and on whom the government largesse has to be bestowed upon. Even the term "health care" is fluid. e.g. Is a gender transformation surgery health care?

And as regards EU, let the population become more heterogeneous (through immigration) and let us see in a couple of decades how socialist they are. This is just my personal opinion, not to offend anybody.

Absolutely. But in most democracies it is ultimately a democratic process on what is part of the National Health system, what gets re-imbursed and so on. It figures heavily in political campaigns as well.

Same for gender transformation surgery. In our case it is ultimately parliament that decides. But these sort of topics tend to have a very broad public debate. You can’t open a newspaper, look at a talk show and these sort of topics are very much debated. With pro’s and con’s smoke screens and all the usual rhetoric from many.

E.g. 20-30 years ago you would be hard pressed to have alternative medicines and treatment as part of your health insurance. But we did have dental treatment included standard. These days no dental treatment is part of the standard basic package, but most health insurers offer all sort of alternative medicine and treatments at no extra cost.

As I type this reply I am waiting on a call back from a Health Insurance party. My employer has contracted a new party. I can decide to stay with my current party or move to the new one. Both offer the standard (mandatory) coverage at approx the same cost. But both also have a bewildering number of different options for some additional cost. Irrespective, for the two of us, with the extra my wife and I like/need, we will be paying about Euro 500 per month.

Jeroen

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

When the actual reality couldn't be more different. The US federal govt spends almost 4 Trillion dollars on welfare programs every year.

The US has only spent more than 10% of GDP on welfare in one year out of the last fourteen - in 2021 for medical and stimulus welfare post COVID they spent about 10.5% of GDP. Now the US economy is about $ 23 trillion. $ 4 trillion would make it roughly 17%, which means one of us is quoting an incorrect figure.

Originally Posted by nakul0888

Even when it comes to taxes, if you just set aside the noise and look at the details, you can clearly see that Europe taxes its middle class and poor much more than the US, especially via Sales Taxes. The USA actually has the most progressive tax structure in the developed world. I mean these are all plain to see and still people go on about how America is some libertarian dreamland. I have no idea why.

This is correct. US taxes are far easier to navigate and far lower than most of the EU and the UK. In addition, some of the tax breaks available are simply fantastic - G Wagens are a write off, for example. However, all these actually make the US much closer to a libertarian ideal - they actually want no taxes - than most European countries.

[nakul0888]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

The US has only spent more than 10% of GDP on welfare in one year out of the last fourteen - in 2021 for medical and stimulus welfare post COVID they spent about 10.5% of GDP. Now the US economy is about $ 23 trillion. $ 4 trillion would make it roughly 17%, which means one of us is quoting an incorrect figure.

I'm quoting the latest statistics. The federal govt budget itself is 6 trillion. Out of that 4 Trillion itself is for medicare, medicaid and social security. All of which are social programs. There are numerous other welfare programs as well beyond these three. Actual tax receipts are expected only upto 4 trillion and 2 Trillion is the deficit for the latest year that I looked into. No amount of tax the rich schemes is going to plug this hole.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

I'm quoting the latest statistics. The federal govt budget itself is 6 trillion. Out of that 4 Trillion itself is for medicare, medicaid and social security. All of which are social programs. There are numerous other welfare programs as well beyond these three. Actual tax receipts are expected only upto 4 trillion and 2 Trillion is the deficit for the latest year that I looked into. No amount of tax the rich schemes is going to plug this hole.

Perfect is the enemy of good. There is no reason somebody earning less than 200K pays a far higher percentage as tax than somebody making 200 million

[dragonfire]

Socialism and communism were hated words in the USA until not long ago. For decades old Bernie tried to sell them under different names. The latest was to wrap socialism with one of the most respected terms in politics - democracy, and voila, you get "democratic socialism". No, that didn't work that too well either, so they guy now renamed it to democratic capitalism? What? So what do they currently have in the USA? Authoritarian capitalism?

Does "healthcare us a yooman right" and "free tuitions for all" sound like capitalism? The lefties sell their crapware using different names, as if it us a less potent poison than what was sold to hapless people of the USSR and Cuba. It's new, it's different, it's better, it's not tried anywhere else, so let's try it here.

Really, do people still fall for these snake oil salesmen?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

The US has only spent more than 10% of GDP on welfare in one year out of the last fourteen - in 2021 for medical and stimulus welfare post COVID they spent about 10.5% of GDP. Now the US economy is about $ 23 trillion. $ 4 trillion would make it roughly 17%, which means one of us is quoting an incorrect figure.


This is correct. US taxes are far easier to navigate and far lower than most of the EU and the UK. In addition, some of the tax breaks available are simply fantastic - G Wagens are a write off, for example. However, all these actually make the US much closer to a libertarian ideal - they actually want no taxes - than most European countries.

Thanks, that is my understanding too and what all statistics show The USA doesn’t spend that much on benefits per capita. Now, I would be the first to admit it is hugely difficult comparing these system to one and another. But having lived in the USA and having lots of friends and family you do get a feel for it.

Yes, there are certain social benefit programs. But they pale in comparison to most western programs. And the eligibility is usually restricted too, the pay outs less and the duration very very short.

There is a reason of course why so many people in the USA are still not covered under a health insurance. People simply can not pay the premiums, even with the aid provided. And part of it is attitude as well. I was amazed to find out my PA, who made good money did not have health insurance. If there was anythignwrong with her kids or herself, she would just rock up to the ER. By law any ER needs to see patients coming in and do a first diagnosis and treatment. Contrary to popular believe, they won’t ask for your credit card or insurance when you come in. I know I ended up in the ER three times myself. But once your situation is stabilised and or diagnosed you need a credit card, or health insurance, or leave the hospital. To this day, people in the greatest nation in the world are dying because they can’t afford the proper care.

It is mostly very rich or people who work for big companies who have good health insurance. It became painfully obvious to me that when I was laying off folks it was not so much the lackmof income,that worried them, but the fact they could not participate in our corporate health insurance. You can always find money to tie the family, home, mortgage or rent and food for a few months. But if you get an accident or need continuous expensive treatment you might be broke by the end of the week if you have no insurance.

Obama tried his best, but what he initially envisaged and what finally passed through congress are two complete different things.

Yes, there are a lot of sponsored schools. My wife worked as a volunteer on one of the worst schools in the nation! Whereas in the Kansas City great area, the suburbs there were also four of the ten best schools in the nation. But they were in the suburbs of Kansas City such as Overland Park. Where average family income was more than USD 150.000 annually.

At my wife’s school most kids came from trouble some families. Either the dad was going to jail, was about to be released from jail, or was out on bail. Every winter we had a number of pupils who camped out with their mums in their cars, outside the school because they did not have a home to go to.!

This was, watch for a politically incorrect term, an all black school. Teacher and pupils alike. My ife is a professional Speech and Language Therapist and she was the head of a special need school in The Hague. So she knows a thing or two on how to deal with kids with learning difficulties. But the biggest problem was the teachers at these school!

So yes, there might be a state sponsored school, but the difference between areas and private schools is huge. If you are say black with a simple job, or no job, the available education to your kids is going to be vastly different from the kids of a white middle income person.

Race, amongst others, is till a huge divider in the USA.

I supported a charity called Christmas in October. It would provide all kinds of services to people who could not afford anything. We worked exclusively in east of Troost as it was known. The black community. We would mow people’s lawn, clean their house, paint the kitchen, repair a leaking gutter, trim a tree, fit a new shower head. Fairly simple maintenance activities. I have been in dozens and dozen’s of these house. Often elderly black people who could not even afford to eat properly, let alone pay somebody to help out on some basis domestic chores. I could not believe what I saw! Every single one of them also suffered from a host of different medical ailments. There might have been some benefits, but it did not raise their existence to an even basic level.

It is one thing to look at GDP and dollars per GDP spend on benefits, but unless you are willing to role up your sleeves and step into the muck, you will never ever have a good understanding of the ground realities people deal with. The same is true for many countries of course. My son lives on an absolute minimum. He doesn’t have any savings. Officially we are not allowed to help him financially as it would be deducted from his allowance. The same is true for my eldest sister. sashes has been disabled formulier thirty years. And it’s a rough life. Not as rough as in the USA or India, but still. Both my son and hailed are much better off financially here in the Netherlands than in most other places of the world of course. But it still no picnic.

Tax levels and differences between countries are only marginally less complicated to calculate then social benefits per country. Hugely complex.

But I have yet to find any credible data source that shows USA has high income tax. I earned more in my four years in the usa, than anywhere else In my entire career. And I paid substantially lower income tax compared to other western countries. My disposable income income was higher than any other place in the world I lived and worked when adjusted apples to apples.

Jeroen

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

Does "healthcare us a yooman right" and "free tuitions for all" sound like capitalism? The lefties sell their crapware using different names, as if it us a less potent poison than what was sold to hapless people of the USSR and Cuba.

I fail to understand the purpose of your tone of ridicule and denigration towards basic human necessities such as universal healthcare and education. Am I missing something here?

Originally Posted by Jeroen

It is one thing to look at GDP and dollars per GDP spend on benefits, but unless you are willing to role up your sleeves and step into the muck, you will never ever have a good understanding of the ground realities people deal with. The same is true for many countries of course.

I suspect many people who posit rather complex socio-economic arguments, especially ones about other countries, do so without on-ground experience. The law of the interwebs demands that they be taken seriously.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I suspect many people who posit rather complex socio-economic arguments, especially ones about other countries, do so without on-ground experience. The law of the interwebs demands that they be taken seriously.

If you have followed my post over the years you will have noticed I repeatedly warn people to be cautious about what the Internet tells them. Especially advise and opinions by anonymous folks must be treated with due care!

I post under my own name, but I would still urge anybody to take all my posts with a grain of salt and verify with multiple other sources!

It is not as if you can me sue me for posting a stupid, irresponsible, unfounded, ridiculous, opinion. Even when I claim it is fact, there is no recourse for anybody reading this.

So be careful who you and what you trust on the Internet. My experience, but don’t take my word for it, obviously, you need to do a lot of reading and actively search for sources with a different approach, different political flavour. Hence when we lived in the USA we were members of both the republican and Democratic Party. I read both CNN and Fox News etc.

Jeroen

[DigitalOne]

Meanwhile the oh-so-perfect western Europe...

Source : Economist (Feb 2022)

Europe is the free-rider continent

....For decades its defence has been underpinned by America—leaving it in a supporting role even as war breaks out on its own borders. Economically it has piggybacked on innovation from elsewhere, keeping up with rivals, not forging ahead.


Even the feel-good environmental ambitions crafted in Brussels are made possible in part by importing from afar the products once made in carbon-spewing factories Europe shut down long ago. How clever it seems to some. All this money saved and effort outsourced has made it possible to live a fine life while working 35-hour weeks and retiring in one’s prime.
....

EU countries spend a third less on research and development than America or Japan, as a share of GDP, and are out-invested even by China nowadays.

....

western Europeans were a quarter poorer than Americans in 1990, and remain a quarter poorer today. They work less, and enjoy the slipstream of those who toil harder.

...

Plenty of them scoff at America’s cut-throat capitalist model, not to mention the Chinese one. But economists, including Daron Acemoglu, point out that such winner-takes-all systems create the conditions for innovation that Europe then adopts on the cheap. And indeed the cuddly form of capitalism embraced in Europe has markedly failed to create world-beating companies.
....

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Meanwhile the oh-so-perfect western Europe...

Source : Economist (Feb 2022)

Europe is the free-rider continent

Are they looking only from economics POV? Since the full article is behind paywall, I am not sure. EU walks lock step with USA on geopolitical issues, and pay the price. Ukraine mess was created by USA, and EU had to go along and pay the price. Same goes for Iraq war, and other lesser wars.

The rebuttal for the above was provided almost 7 years ago: https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...riders/475245/

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Are they looking only from economics POV? Since the full article is behind paywall, I am not sure. EU walks lock step with USA on geopolitical issues, and pay the price. Ukraine mess was created by USA, and EU had to go along and pay the price. Same goes for Iraq war, and other lesser wars.

The rebuttal for the above was provided almost 7 years ago: https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...riders/475245/

No, the article is mostly about whether EU is pulling its Military?NATO weight in the context of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

I have quoted only economics parts of the article to keep it in line with the topic of this thread. I think the economic POV still makes sense, even when you remove the Military/NATO context.

Since the full article is behind paywall, I am not sure.

I had posted this a while ago in the "The best business magazines & publications" thread. Elon Musk in his initial (and final ) days as Twitter CEO promised something like this. Hope he implements it.

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Why don't newspapers/mags enable pay-per-article? I would be willing to pay a 50-100 bucks for an article rather than taking annual subscriptions for individual newspapers. It shouldn't be technically too difficult, I suppos? Or Google can take the lead, aggregate the content, introduce a wallet, and pass on the micro-payments to the newspapers/mags.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Meanwhile the oh-so-perfect western Europe...

Source : Economist (Feb 2022)

Europe is the free-rider continent

I don't know why this surprises anyone. Europe is a continent in the sunset of its life. From 1750 to 1945, the Continent (and the UK) were the most powerful force in the world, and did as they desired. It's why this forum is in English, not Swahili or Hindi. Now they are no longer ascendant. Instead, they live a comfortable life, fattened over decades of protectionism, keeping dirty brown and black people out, and preaching about environment, equality and 30 hour work weeks. All their labour and ills are imported, and can be cleverly accounted for.

In fact, everything was going just fine, with successive German administrators continuously fellating Putin to a level not seen since Ribbentrop drank Molotov cocktails, until Putin decided to play cowboy and now all their lederhosen is in a bunch. Now suddenly everyone's going to freeze so coal imports have gone up 30%, climate be damned.

It's painfully obvious that the EU cannot build anything hugely innovative or high-tech anymore. From the internet to electric vehicles, the leaders in creating technology and thus wealth are Americans, Chinese, and Indians. Europeans will continue to coast for another 50-100 years as the American ascendant draws to a close. Then what's left of the EU will cozy up to the Chinese.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Are they looking only from economics POV? Since the full article is behind paywall, I am not sure. EU walks lock step with USA on geopolitical issues, and pay the price. Ukraine mess was created by USA, and EU had to go along and pay the price. Same goes for Iraq war, and other lesser wars.

The rebuttal for the above was provided almost 7 years ago: https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...riders/475245/

Here is the full article. https://archive.fo/XAyF2 It delves into more than just the defence bit - which The Atlantic talked about. Instructive to remember that a lot of things now become clearer post-Ukraine, which show The Economist in much better light than The Atlantic. I have little respect for the normally biased views of The Economist, but they are right on the money this time.

[alpha1]

Wow, glad to see this thread becoming Republicans vs Democrats debate.
I almost forgot we are living in India, and most of the posts are also by Indians living in India!!


Anyway what's the view on Ukraine War, how long is it economically sustainable for Russia and Ukraine and other nations with vested interest to keep meddling in.

I am quite surprised how Ukraine is still able to function. Also how will China hold up, now with another impending wave of Covid (though perhaps not as fatal as the delta)?

[Jeroen]

According to the World Economic Forum:

Global investment in innovation remained buoyant throughout 2020, despite the setbacks ushered in by the pandemic. High-tech industries in particular maintained their commitment to research and development (R&D) spending, according to the World Intellectual Property Organization’s (WIPO) Global Innovation Index (GII).

The top three countries for R&D investment, as ranked in the GII, are Switzerland, Sweden and the US. Switzerland has held the number one spot in the Index since 2011.

Source: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/...erhouses-2021/

According to them the top R&D spenders are ranked as follows, using world bank data:



Source: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/...evelopment-gdp

Jeroen