[ringoism]

I have been searching long for something to replace the superb but rough Marshal 4x4. It is wonderful for local use, but looking at something more comfortable for long travels, something more refined (at least A/C and Power Steering for wifey) seemed prudent.

There is a discussion in the Marshal 4x4 NGCS thread taking place already.

The Scorpio 4x4 is the natural successor, but finding a good one for cheap isn't too easy. About 80-90% of those listed on OLX as 4WD are NOT, according to their RC and on the ones from 2013/earlier, the lack of locking hubs - same as with Safari - is IRRITATING!!!.

Add to that is the reality that despite being 10-15 years newer and CR, they are really not more efficient than the rattly old DI, which with current fuel prices trend is becoming potentially painful and harder to justify.

Anyway, I digress.

Another thought was to keep the old beast on the side for snow use and hauling stuff and occasional day trips off-road, and to get a diesel sedan offering twice the FE for daily use as well as long cross-country runs. I never wanted to keep two cars, but hey, if maintenance / insurance are cheap enough, then why not? Well, dummy, you can't take a sedan out onto remote faraway beaches or forest trails, or up to Sandakpu whilst out touring, that's why not. But leaving that aside momentarily.

Considering that we're between H.P. and MZ, the second car either has to have a superb service network in the hinterland or be exceedingly reliable (or both).

Thought of Yeti but parts are scarce / frighteningly expensive, and FE well below the others in consideration (may as well absorb a 2kmpl hit and go for Scorpio / Storme):

Drove an Etios GD (2012) with under 70k done and loved it, except for the bit of NVH up front (nothing like the Marshal, mind you!!!). That was for 3L, and I see lots of others listed between 2.7-4 lakh in the 2012-14 range.

SX-4's seem cheaper on average, even 2L or less for a nice decade-old (Delhi rules helping here). Haven't yet driven (they are rare locally).

Impressions from research are that SX4 is physically heavier/higher but a bit lower in the "grunt torque" department (so crucial in hills), also 100L less boot space, which is significant when trying to partially replace a SUV.

A folding rear seat was highly preferred (as in Octavia), but not sure any of these cars in consideration have it that meet the other requirements.

This is where the Mobilio comes in as a wild card. It has a spacious stowage with last row folded/removed, gives superb FE, and spares seem more dear than the others.

Any thoughts / experiences / real-world comparos invited / appreciated.

There is the option to sell off the Marshal, (how much do BHPians think I could actually sell it for?) and pay our dues with the singular Scorpio all-rounder (also MAYBE discoverable at sub 4L if SS-Traveler's experience is any indication).

Thanks,
-Eric

[landcruiser123]

I've been on road trips on all 3 cars and will tell you that you can't go wrong with any of them. However, the SX4 will be the most refined and well-put-together car.

The Mobilio petrol is a large rocket; I haven't been a diesel one, but knowing it shares the powertrain with the City/Amaze/Jazz, I don't think there should be any major issues.

Originally Posted by ringoism

Impressions from research are that SX4 is .....also 100L less boot space

Considering the space flexibility offered by the mobilio, I think it should be your primary choice

[ringoism]

As I tend to get long-winded, will summarize:

1. 2-3.5L range
2. Good low-end torque (Ertiga out)
3. Good luggage space (better the more flexible)
4. FE around 16 city / 20 hwy (i.e. diesel)
5. Minimal maintenance /.spares costs
6. GC
7. Unobtrusive A-pillars (am I asking too much now?).

Basically, what's best for someone coming off an SUV, as a more efficient but spacious VFM pre-owned package?

Thanks,
-Eric

[deep_bang]

An SX4 will fix the bill perfectly.
An etios too would, especially on the maintenance factor as everyone knows the legendary Toyota maintainance, and perhaps the only drawbacks i see are the possible taxi image (if you are bothered about it at all) and slightly lower GC than sx4.

Honda on the other hand, would typically be on the slightly higher side on maintenance in my humble opinion.

[asit.kulkarni93]

Given your hill specific usage, avoid the sx4 diesel. SX4 petrol is a good option but the diesel suffers from turbo lag and honestly doesn't help the case when driving around hills. Parts are expensive for the SX4.

Etios is a good option. Suits the requirements perfectly. The Mobilio diesel maybe good and we have one in the extended family which has done over 100k kms. The only issue we find is around quality. Lot of niggles in the Mobilio. Amaze is a much better option. If you have a trusted FNG around who can arrange spares then even the Ford Fiesta diesel is a good option.

[GTO]

From your list, I would go for the Etios or Mobilio. The Etios is very reliable, has a superb suspension and meets your cost-of-ownership requirements. Even the Mobilio is an excellent MPV with good engines, comfortable suspension and healthy space. What killed it was Honda overpricing it and the blatant cost-cutting.

Between these two, pick the one that you find a better, cleaner, lower km example of.

On the highway, both will be lightyears ahead of your Marshal.

[TorqueMonster]

Okay, so I would say that you are at a tie here. You could not go wrong with any of these cars.

Firstly, the Etios. Pros would be safety, it has lots of space and legroom, and most importantly fuel efficiency. This car can probably run on diesel fumes let alone diesel, and also the fact that it is reliable. Cons will be that the car is terribly slow, and the noise from the engine can be heard from miles. You don't seem like the person who desires speed, so you could not go wrong with this car. The Pros for this one outweigh the cons massively.

Now comes the SX4. Pros are that it's a Maruti with the 1.3 Multijet, the national diesel engine. Spares are present for anything and everywhere, and it's reliable too. It looks fine and is more of a premium Maruti. The only cons would be whether the 90hp is enough to pull a sedan of that size. It is decent, but not the most powerful.

Lastly, we have the Mobilio. Pros would be the fact that it's a good MPV. It is decently powerful, and I haven't heard too many problems with Honda cars with reliability. Cons will be that the interior is not that good, at least personally for me, and the car has a oddball styling, with the car looking like an elongated Brio for me. Also to be seen is whether Honda has good service coverage in the Hills. This would have been a great choice had you lived in the plains but for HP and MZ it's best to go with tried and tested.

Now personally I believe that you should look at the Ertiga too. Same pros as the SX4, but with more practicality. I personally love the car and how good it is, know multiple people who don't regret buying it. Cons once again would be regarding the power, 90hp is adequate, but 100 - 110 would have been excellent and best suited for the car. And since it is a diesel and it being an out of warranty car, you could remap it if it is not adequate.

Now an oddball suggestion from my side will be a Duster. Yes, the service would not be that good, but ultimately it is a well-sorted SUV with good ride quality. The 1.5 diesel has also been in use for many cars, so spares will also not be an issue. Ik the injectors have been a problem, so that would easily be the biggest con for this.

Get the SX4 or Etios. If you are ready to give Ertiga a second chance, then that too.

[comfortablynumb]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Drove an Etios GD (2012) with under 70k done and loved it, except for the bit of NVH up front (nothing like the Marshal, mind you!!!). That was for 3L, and I see lots of others listed between 2.7-4 lakh in the 2012-14 range.

If you are leaning towards the Etios, please check this thread to see if Etios's manufactured in any specific date range should be avoided. From the few posts I've read, the 2012-14 vintage seems to be safe enough.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...st-toyota.html (Video: Etios owners stage mass protest against Toyota)

[ringoism]

Thanks guys, keep 'em coming.

To respond briefly to responses:

A) Not a stickler about styling on any of them, and taxi image is meaningless to me. Yes, there are a TON of Etios taxis up here. Taxi-wallahs want to minimize costs and hassles and have comfy seating for self and passengers and lots of luggage space, and so do I. Power-wise, well, funnily it felt FAST to me. I used to drive a 350hp car, but have apparently been in the Marshal for too long. "Slow" cars (you don't know slow!) are fine with me, even with the DI I normally can stay ahead of 80% of hill traffic, and anything that can comfortably do 110kmph on the highway I'm fully fine with.

B) Yes, the Etios engine seemed noisy at points, not sure how much that would irritate me on long drives. Certainly 200+% better than Marshal. Had read in the threads here that 2013-up had more deadener in the firewall and hydraulic engine mounts, to some positive effect, so I suppose it can be upgraded. I test-drove on a very steep gradient, starting from a stop there was fine (unladen).

C) REALLY wish it had a folding rear seat like the Octavia has... neighbor here has one of those, and WOW, it really helps! He can put fully assembled bicycles and multiple fruit crates and tree saplings and all kinda stuff in there! Greatly eases the sense of loss vs the SUV's.

D) GTO's Mobilio review stated it had plenty-o torque and basically zero lag, so that's great (among other things this helps save clutches; father-in-law fried his steeply-geared Stingray in about 25k km's trying to manage his parking and insanely steep lane in Aizawl). And basic layout / space is simply best in the Honda, almost like a squatting/squashed SUV/MUV, which is a good thing. As for spares, Boodmo comparisons confirm the priciness of SOME items vs. the others (Etios spares almost shockingly cheap, perhaps a nod to that taxi market). Met a local guy with a Mobilio a couple days ago, 2015 and paint looked pretty terrible (edge rust on tailgate!), fairly neglected unit, 140k in the hills and he'd had no issues till that day, when he was getting the selfstarter gear-clutch replaced. I'm okay with any quirky look inside or out, a few rattles are tolerable, but "niggles" in terms of stuff to actually be fixed I'd rather avoid. I'm good with the "uniqueness" of the car... always tended towards vehicles that were a little non-standard.

E) If the SX-4's 1.3 is identically tuned to the Ertiga I think that'll be tough. Have seen them really struggling to get going when laden, on upgradients. Petrol FE kind of lower than I'd prefer.

F) I do my own basic maintenance, and spares for any of these readily available online or overnight from Kashmiri Gate. Maruti ASC's everywhere, Honda/Toyota three hours from here; from Aizawl Toyota is 4-5 hrs (Silchar, Assam), and Honda 12 hrs (Guwahati)...

G) Renault does have a presence few hours from Manali, and directly in Aizawl, and the low-po 85ps Duster (not the 110, with its injector woes), should also be fine (if they'd had the 85 on the AWD, or if there was a simple solution for the 110's injector/ECU issues, that would have CLEARLY been THE car for us!!!). Though it seems Renaults may be more niggly than the others? And spares costs vs. the others?

Anything else I'm missing here (Hyundai?)? I'm seeing Santa Fe's insanely cheap (~4L) now, but that's not gonna fit the FE requirement, and electronics scare me.


So have arrived for now at:

Is it going to be easier / cheaper to engineer/ retrofit a folding seat in the Etios (I'm a fairly handy guy, did it (crudely) in the Marshal!)... or to re-map an Ertiga??? 30k is a price I've often seen mentioned for re-maps, and that, of course, can take a mid-3L car to 4L - rather painful and long payback vs. just going petrol.

So, *What's the cheapest a (good) re-map can be done, and will it actually give an Ertiga something like Etios/Mobilio-like lower-end torque...*??? Or should I reconsider the 2wd Duster (which does give the fold-down seating!)? Or mod an Etios? Or live with Honda's lower (peripheral) QC? Hmmm...

-Eric

[locusjag]

I am curious - why not get a Bolero? It'd be an upgrade from the Marshal, does decently well on the highway (I know it's not stellar) and probably comes with locking differentials in its 4x4 version (I admit it - I haven't ever studied the Bolero product-line before).

The Bolero will allow for ample low end grunt in the hills, does come with power steering, AC and thin A-pillars.

[Red Liner]

I think you should look seriously at the 85hp Duster and try and snag a steal deal (go out and start driving cars for sale). I have only noticed issues with the 110 PS Duster. The 85hp duster kind of ticks all the boxes barring 4wd. Find yourself a good solid FNG, and stock up on spares - you should be good. That car is built like a tank, and the suspension is phenomenal.

The Duster 85 will be top of my list for a sub 5L budget.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by locusjag

I am curious - why not get a Bolero? It'd be an upgrade from the Marshal, does decently well on the highway (I know it's not stellar) and probably comes with locking differentials in its 4x4 version (I admit it - I haven't ever studied the Bolero product-line before).

The Bolero will allow for ample low end grunt in the hills, does come with power steering, AC and thin A-pillars.

The 4x4 Boleros are fully leaf-sprung and without A/C or PW or anything but PS afaik, unless we want to go back to 2008/9 and the Peugeot-engined models... so in 4x4 form, barely an upgrade over the Marshal. That said, if we could live with 2wd, then yes, the M2DiCR isn't far off these smaller MUV/sedans in terms of FE, and of course higher variants have a few creature comforts (even a defogger!).

FWD generally trumps RWD in terms of traction, assuming 2wd. My experience from decades in the snow-belt.

Bolero packaging is not too good, interior space is poor, but I do like those A-pillars.

Re-sale seems unjustifiably high, and not likely to find ABS/airbag variants (though not indispensable features to me).

The TUV300 / Bolero Neo with the manual locking diff would probably do us fine, but as of now well out of budget.

Will keep the suggestion in mind, though. They're good cars for sure.

-Eric

[Sanidhya mukund]

Please do consider NCR banished examples of:

1. Toyota Fortuner
2. Ford Endeavour
3. Mitsubishi Pajero/Sport.
4. Isuzu MU7
5. Chevy Trailblazer
6. Chevy Captiva
7. Honda CRV AWD
8. Suzuki Grand Vitara
9. XUV500 AWD

Fortuner does command quite a premium and will be difficult to find for less than 8-9 lakhs while some of the others might have spare availability issues. However, Ford Endeavour and Honda CRV are quite common and both come with 4WD/AWD. You’ll be able to find plenty of examples in Delhi NCR.

Suzuki Grand Vitara would be a bit tricky to find, but is an excellent car in my opinion. (All good except for the fuel efficiency)

If you could ignore 4X4, the First gen Innova is also an excellent choice. Good space, comfortable seats, abuse friendly underpinnings, engine known for reliability and decent low end torque. 2012-13 models can be had for as low as 4 lakhs.

[DicKy]

Etios

Pros-
- One of the cheapest non- small petrol Maruti that is the epitome of fill it, shut it, forget it.
- You can go crazy on the DIY, especially interiors as there isn't much. Just one piece, single nut/screw panels.
- Heavily abuse friendly. (not the external body parts though)
- Cheapest safe car around.

Cons-
- Engine is tractable and has good driveability, but is not as idiot proof as the Honda 1.5l. Could stall or struggle off-boost with full load on steep inclines.
- Bumpers are super flimsy.
- With a full load, the car sags. Makes you wonder how you are going to use that huge 595l of bootspace, with 5 pax. More so since the car feels stiffly sprung on bad roads, but sags with load. Unlike say the Octavia, which doesn't sag much even with full load, or going over humps. Though in the Etios's defence most of the times it is the huge ass rear mudflap that hits the ground. Observe that most taxi guys would have cut off half the mudflap.

Mobilio

Pros-
- Cheapest decent station wagon/MPV you can buy second hand.
- Great engines, both the petrol and diesel.
- Versatile.

Cons-
- Let's say. Except the Brio, all others on the Brio platform are kinda compromised IMHO.
- The ones I knew ate through brakes and clutch. And had serious windshield fogging issues. You couldn't just drive with windows closed on slightly cold nights or rainy nights. No permutations of the A/C system could help you.
- Suspension kinda feels basic. Easily bottoms out and hits the bump stopper.
- Seats are super basic and thin. Though could say the same for pre 2014 Etios.

Originally Posted by ringoism

C) REALLY wish it had a folding rear seat like the Octavia has... neighbor here has one of those, and WOW, it really helps! He can put fully assembled bicycles and multiple fruit crates and tree saplings and all kinda stuff in there! Greatly eases the sense of loss vs the SUV's.
Is it going to be easier / cheaper to engineer/ retrofit a folding seat in the Etios (I'm a fairly handy guy,

The 2016 Etios (Platinum) has folding rear seats. As a bonus you get rear armrests, ISOFIX, headrests and 3 point seatbelt for all rear passengers. Guess the parts may cost around 10-15k. For the Octavia, it is not just the folding rear seats, the notchback tailgate helps tremendously to swallow luggage, while the traditional gooseneck hinged bootlid of the Etios may not be able to do so.

Originally Posted by ringoism

FWD generally trumps RWD in terms of traction, assuming 2wd. My experience from decades in the snow-belt.

Not sure about snow, but on dusty/gravelly inclines RWD will perform better especially with full load. But yeah, without full load, FWD will perform better than most of the open differential RWD vehicles out there.

Originally Posted by Sanidhya mukund

Please do consider NCR banished examples of:

If you could ignore 4X4, the First gen Innova is also an excellent choice. Good space, comfortable seats, abuse friendly underpinnings, engine known for reliability and decent low end torque. 2012-13 models can be had for as low as 4 lakhs.

First options that came to my mind. But @ringoism did emphasis he wanted 16+ km/l, which all of these would struggle to meet especially on the hills

[ringoism]

Hi everyone.

Had posted a couple days ago under the "sedan" category but with that feedback (thanks everyone!) and further thought, am realizing that a liftback-type luggage compartment with fold-down seats is going to suit us much better than a typical sedan-type trunklid. Particularly coming from an SUV (Marshal 4x4) and frequent expected utility use.


***Priorities are FE (16/20 city/hwy), low maintenance cost, reliability, versatility, luggage space, and driveability in the HILL CONTEXT (Aizawl/Manali).***


*Etios station wagon or liftback (a'la Octavia) could've been perfect, if such existed!

*Octavia/Yeti could've been perfect if they weren't Skodas (maintenance cost/ spares availability).

* Ertiga could have been perfect if it had better low-end grunt (real world effects of a good re-map, and minimum cost???).

*Duster AWD could have been perfect if not for the 110ps injector/ECM issues (confirmed by my diesel tech guy here - anyone know a permanent solution, or a particular production batch to be avoided?)

* Honda BR-V would have been perfect if within budget (could also wish Honda service were closer than 12 hrs from Aizawl!).

******

So coming to the forefront now are the 85hp 2wd Duster, and the Honda Mobilio - both available at 3-4L in good pre-owned condition.

Not concerned about looks/image/fashion. Pleasing to drive would be a plus (not speaking of raw power/speed), otherwise pure pragmatism in view here. Comfy driver's seat (I'm tall and tend towards middle-back pain) and good visibility re: thinner/better-placed A-pillars in particular would be real pluses.

Mobilio +: FE, more luggage space, very torquey. (-): interior/paint quality complaints (forgivable & not unmitigatable), distant ASC (I'm DIY for basic maintenance, and Boodmo is there)...

Duster +: 15mm extra ground clearance, bit more rugged (?), ASC in Aizawl, popular model, resale if it ever came to that (-): very broad range of reported FE as per "Actual Fuel Efficiency thread" here. Not sure how longevity/ reliability of components compares to Japanese.

Still open to Ertiga IF remaps can give me low-end boost without breaking FE/reliability, and if keeping total cost within budget.

Anything I'm missing here? Thoughts / advice?


Thanks, Eric