[pta320]

Skoda or VW are not premium brands by any stretch of the imagination. Both Euro brands have problematic cars for the most part with Skoda taking the lead coupled with trashiest after sales service in the entire automobile history. In comparison, Toyota or Honda in general have a better brand perception and infinitely better quality and reliability record.

Anyways coming back to the question, since the person in question only wants a German/European sedan, here are a few options I'd suggest:

1) VW Jetta (2015-2016) 2.0TDI with manual transmission. It's one of the better German cars out there. Although the manual tranny is relatively trouble free, it's the engine that is usually problematic. The most common failure is the water pump. Be very careful with this part and change it every time with the rubber timing belt. But still this engine is far better than 1.8 TSI which has lot more failure points.

Also, your friend maybe prepared to deal with the catastrophic DSG failures, yet I wouldn't suggest getting a used DSG. It's just not worth being stranded on the road in the middle of no where. Failure of DSGs is not the the matter of 'if' but 'when'.

Skoda Octavia can also be considered with similar configuration but just the fact that Skoda usually sucks with the after sales service, I won't recommend it. Also the build quality is flimsier compared to VW which is the reason most want to get a German car.

2) Skoda Octavia L&K 1.9TDI (2009-2010) with manual transmission. Although will be much cheaper than 16 lakhs budget, it has a bulletproof ALH diesel engine and a reliable transmission. The top model is also quite premium. The only German car built to last imo.

3) BMW 320d LCI (2016-2018) / BMW 520d LCI (2015-2016). It's hard to find these in 16 lakhs but as far as I know both have B47 engine which is not plagued by the timing chain failures like N47. The B47 is although much more complex than N47 but I haven't heard of any serious issue with this engine. ZF tranny is reliable as well. Perhaps if any chance, these are the only two BMWs I'd recommend.

Lastly, I would suggest your friend to give the following cars atleast a second look

1) 2013-2015 Toyota Camry petrol with auto transmission
2) 2012-2013 Honda Accord with manual transmission
3) Toyota Corolla Altis (2014+) petrol + manual
4) New gen Honda Civic petrol + auto

The above mentioned Japanese cars are great with almost trouble free ownership experience. Camry and Accord are a segment above Jetta. If fuel efficiency is a concern, Corolla or Civic can be considered. Good luck with the purchase.

[pta320]

Originally Posted by akshay4587

For how much?
15-16L, Can get him a decent 2013-2014 F30 320D, and I must say its a reliable car.

That Jetta should ideally be half of what he is willing to spend.

Won't suggest 2013-2014 320d. The engine has way too many issues with the timing belt snapping prematurely. 2016-2018 320d LCI with B47 is a wiser choice but will be difficult in this budget.

[pta320]

Originally Posted by AJ56

I’d say consider the 523i if he wants a driver oriented car or look at the E/A6, stick to petrol as it has much lower nvh than diesel and future of diesel with potential bans is uncertain. If he can stretch the budget to around 18-19L then there are excellent single owner low mileage 2012 750Li’s listed all over used car sites, have your trusted mechanic and the BMW dealer do a thorough check and it should be fine. I don’t think Jetta/Octavia will feel like proper upgrades given the requirements. Cheers.

Even Tyler from Hoovie's garage would think twice before even coming close to a used 750Li
:-P

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by pta320

Won't suggest 2013-2014 320d. The engine has way too many issues with the timing belt snapping prematurely.

The engines mostly used in E90 LCI and F30 pre LCI were the N47 2.0L 4 cyl. diesel engines, in various states of tunes. They were used across 1,3 and 5 series models mostly between the years 2007-2014. They have a timing chain and not timing belt. And yes, it had quite some timing chain issues causing bent valves to some serious damage at higher speeds. But the problem itself is not a big deal as the previous M47 diesel engines also had similar problems.

But the issue with N47 is special, because BMW engineers were over confident and placed the timing chain on the rear side (cabin side) thinking high of their engineering prowess of having made a lifetime zero maintenance part. That cost them dearly. As mechanical components wear and tear over a period of time, there were quite a lot of cars faced the timing chain issues and the part itself is not expensive, but the labour very well is. You have to take the whole engine out to replace the part. If they would have placed the timing chain just normally at front, all this could have been avoided. We are all humans and mistakes are made and they learnt from it. They fixed this in the B47 engines, successor of N47.

That’s why I suggested in my previous post to get an E90 6 cylinder engine (F30 6 cyl. would be out of budget) as they are almost bullet proof and reliable for longer term usage. Both petrol and diesel are equally good.

Cheers,
Karthik

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by pta320

Even Tyler from Hoovie's garage would think twice before even coming close to a used 750Li
:-P

Honestly, I think the maintenance issues are overblown with used cars, it all comes to doing your homework with the car in question, driving it thoroughly and having it checked by your trusted mechanic and the BMW dealer. Every year of the 7 series production has known issues, check for them specifically. You need a competent local garage who knows beemers in and out and more importantly, whom you trust. Even if you keep 10-15L aside for potential repairs and part failures, I see it as spending 18+15 = 33L for enjoying a 400+ HP V8 motor and car that was worth much more 8-9 years ago, obviously it shouldn’t be your primary driver as sometimes you have to wait for parts. My neigbhour has a 2008 S500 which he drives everyday, in all these years the only part failure he’s faced is a left wheel bearing, he does baby it but it goes to show not every older German is a reliability disaster.

Tyler from Hoovies daily’s an S63 AMG, a 750 will be much more mundane for him

[pta320]

Originally Posted by carthick1000

The engines mostly used in E90 LCI and F30 pre LCI were the N47 2.0L 4 cyl. diesel engines, in various states of tunes. They were used across 1,3 and 5 series models mostly between the years 2007-2014. They have a timing chain and not timing belt. And yes, it had quite some timing chain issues causing bent valves to some serious damage at higher speeds. But the problem itself is not a big deal as the previous M47 diesel engines also had similar problems.

But the issue with N47 is special, because BMW engineers were over confident and placed the timing chain on the rear side (cabin side) thinking high of their engineering prowess of having made a lifetime zero maintenance part. That cost them dearly. As mechanical components wear and tear over a period of time, there were quite a lot of cars faced the timing chain issues and the part itself is not expensive, but the labour very well is. You have to take the whole engine out to replace the part. If they would have placed the timing chain just normally at front, all this could have been avoided. We are all humans and mistakes are made and they learnt from it. They fixed this in the B47 engines, successor of N47.

That’s why I suggested in my previous post to get an E90 6 cylinder engine (F30 6 cyl. would be out of budget) as they are almost bullet proof and reliable for longer term usage. Both petrol and diesel are equally good.

Cheers,
Karthik

Hi, thanks for correcting. I mistyped chain as belt. And yes I agree with the N47 issues. Not a wise choice to place the chain at the back of the engine. As always with Germans, make things over complicated for no reason.
Cheers!

[sunikkat]

I would strongly suggest a well maintained Octavia / Jetta TDI.
Octavia diesel is super reliable and lots of fun. That 2 TDI engine is a gem and the car is rock solid at highway speeds.
It is a faster car even in stock with impressive 0 to 100 timings (AT - 9.2 secs and MT - 8.6 secs). Get a simple stage 1 re-map and then you are looking at ~ 200 BHP and 400 NM torque. It is very practical too with big boot and lot of space and premium interiors. Only problem will be finding an upgrade, unless ready to spend good money 😊

[androdev]

These cars come in different flavours. Touring type (Jetta TDI), sports type (Polo GTI) and hybrid type (vRS). For someone new to this segment, even the touring type feels very sporty. It would be a good idea to understand one's requirements from this perspective to make the right choice.

[akshay4587]

Originally Posted by pta320

Won't suggest 2013-2014 320d. The engine has way too many issues with the timing belt snapping prematurely. 2016-2018 320d LCI with B47 is a wiser choice but will be difficult in this budget.

That's not true, these engines run chains not belts, and the problematic engine was the N47, which came in pre LCI E90's.

E90 LCI's had N47T engine where in timing chain issue was sorted.
F30's never got the problematic engine too. A friend got one in September 2013, and it has done 90K now. Apart from regular service, it hasn't asked for anything else.

More here

https://www.bmw-driver.net/threads/n...failure.39216/

Originally Posted by carthick1000

The engines mostly used in E90 LCI and F30 pre LCI were the N47 2.0L 4 cyl. diesel engines, in various states of tunes. They were used across 1,3 and 5 series models mostly between the years 2007-2014. They have a timing chain and not timing belt. And yes, it had quite some timing chain issues causing bent valves to some serious damage at higher speeds. But the problem itself is not a big deal as the previous M47 diesel engines also had similar problems.

But the issue with N47 is special, because BMW engineers were over confident and placed the timing chain on the rear side (cabin side) thinking high of their engineering prowess of having made a lifetime zero maintenance part. That cost them dearly. As mechanical components wear and tear over a period of time, there were quite a lot of cars faced the timing chain issues and the part itself is not expensive, but the labour very well is. You have to take the whole engine out to replace the part. If they would have placed the timing chain just normally at front, all this could have been avoided. We are all humans and mistakes are made and they learnt from it. They fixed this in the B47 engines, successor of N47.

That’s why I suggested in my previous post to get an E90 6 cylinder engine (F30 6 cyl. would be out of budget) as they are almost bullet proof and reliable for longer term usage. Both petrol and diesel are equally good.

Cheers,
Karthik

The cars after 2010 got the N47T, T probably stands for technical update.
And these cars definitely arent plagued by timing chain issues.
I know of many Post 2010 E90's and F30's with high mileage and going strong.

https://www.bmw-driver.net/threads/n...failure.39216/

[pta320]

Originally Posted by akshay4587

That's not true, these engines run chains not belts, and the problematic engine was the N47, which came in pre LCI E90's.

E90 LCI's had N47T engine where in timing chain issue was sorted.
F30's never got the problematic engine too. A friend got one in September 2013, and it has done 90K now. Apart from regular service, it hasn't asked for anything else.

More here

https://www.bmw-driver.net/threads/n...failure.39216/

As far as I can remember, LCI came in 2016 with B47 engine. N47 chain issue is still not fixed. I tried to search a lot about it but couldn't find any reliable source which suggests timing chain issue resolved, in contrary other forums based outside of India still have posts with newer N47 chains snapping which is not a promising sign considering the driving conditions abroad are lot better than that in India. B47 engine doesn't have any timing chain issue and appears fairly reliable. The only thing which concerns me about it's long term reliability is that it has almost all electronic parts including even the EGR actuator. So for any work you have to depend on the dealer and EGR usually becomes problematic after certain time.

90K is still too early to comment on whether the timing chain is in good shape or not especially if your friend is maintaining the car well. Also it depends a lot on which conditions engine is used. 90k kms on highway is roughly equivalent to 20k kms in city stop and go traffic in terms on engine wear.

[akshay4587]

Originally Posted by pta320

As far as I can remember, LCI came in 2016 with B47 engine. N47 chain issue is still not fixed. I tried to search a lot about it but couldn't find any reliable source which suggests timing chain issue resolved, in contrary other forums based outside of India still have posts with newer N47 chains snapping which is not a promising sign considering the driving conditions abroad are lot better than that in India. B47 engine doesn't have any timing chain issue and appears fairly reliable. The only thing which concerns me about it's long term reliability is that it has almost all electronic parts including even the EGR actuator. So for any work you have to depend on the dealer and EGR usually becomes problematic after certain time.

90K is still too early to comment on whether the timing chain is in good shape or not especially if your friend is maintaining the car well. Also it depends a lot on which conditions engine is used. 90k kms on highway is roughly equivalent to 20k kms in city stop and go traffic in terms on engine wear.

From what I have read over a period of time, Pre 2011 N47's that made 130Kw or 177bhp, were the ones plagued with these issues. N47T which was released in March 2011 made 135kw/184bhp was supposedly free of the timing chain niggles.

Also most manufacturers in Europe have insanely long oil change intervals

I own an Alfa Romeo 159 in Australia and it's engine is supposedly plagued with issues of timing chain stretching, not to mention, the factory specified oil change interval is 30K kms

My Car has done 175K kms now on factory chain and oil has been changed every 10K kms.

That reminds me of an incident, a friend had picked up a brand new Renault diesel vehicle which again had a 30K oil change interval, I still remember the engine was making timing chain noises by the time it reached 25K on odo.


The key for a healthy timing chain/engine for any vehicle is regular oil changes every 10K kms. with good quality oil.

[LaRoca]

Who in their right mind would want to consider splurging 16L on a used car, that too German, considering the maintenance and reliability aspect?!

[akshay4587]

Originally Posted by LaRoca

Who in their right mind would want to consider splurging 16L on a used car, that too German, considering the maintenance and reliability aspect?!

You are quite far from reality aren't you?

Used Luxury car market is one of the hottest things up north, especially after the NGT fiasco, 7-8 year old diesel German Cars, can be had for a Song.
As long as you know your cars, and where to fix them, they are not hard to maintain. Cars like 320D's Audi A4 Tdi's are fairly reliable as long as you use them for what they are meant.

Parts and Service out in the open market is quite affordable and easily accesible for anyone who is shelling out 15L cash to purchase these cars.

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by akshay4587

From what I have read over a period of time, Pre 2011 N47's that made 130Kw or 177bhp, were the ones plagued with these issues. N47T which was released in March 2011 made 135kw/184bhp was supposedly free of the timing chain niggles.

Originally Posted by akshay4587

The cars after 2010 got the N47T, T probably stands for technical update.
And these cars definitely arent plagued by timing chain issues.

Usually BMW provides after 3 years an engine revision / technical Update and adds TU to the engine code for these engines. I think you mean N47TU. Though, the technical update improved the design of the individual components in the timing loop, it did not completely solve the problem. According to bmw-syndikat.de, this problem existed until sep-2013 production models. That is why N47/N47TU (in all tunes and revisions) engines are best avoided in the used market, especially after warranty period.

Here is an excerpt from bmw-syndikat.de (poorly translated by Google from German).

Which model year and which engine is which problem?
The grinding noise CAN consistently affect all N47s up to 9/2013, regardless of the performance level, technical revision or not. Since September 1, 2013, the latest construction status has also been implemented in the series. In other words: damped rails, changed chain tensioner, changed HDP setting, etc. Vehicles that have already been in the workshop because of grinding noises can definitely cause noises again! Already had vehicles that were repaired in 2012 and came back in 2014 with the same problem. Experience has shown that BMW will still pay for a follow-up complaint after 1-2 years.

I think we deviated enough already into one OEM. OP's friend looks like he is keen on VAG cars. As androdev mentioned, getting a bit more specific on requirements would help improve collective inputs.

[84.monsoon]

How about looking at an Audi A3 from around 2015? They have a timeless shape, the 2.0 TDi with the S-tronic transmission is a cracker of an engine and the Audi also gets independant rear suspension which the Octavia TDI does not have. There are many examples of the mid premium Plus variant available in the price range mentioned.