[imidnightmare]

So, went for the TD and had a detailed discussion at Autobahn (Prabhadevi). First up, the TD. Was in a 1.8 TSI L&K and in one word, was awesome. The car handles really well; I also tried on sports mode and the car flew. Was keeping within speed limits, so didn't get to "stretch the legs" really, but given that it was a Sunday afternoon, had the opportunity to slow down and accelerate quickly a few times - just to get the feel of the power on tap. No disappointments there!

The comfort level was enjoyed by my family who, all being quite short, quite liked the rear seats as well! Overall, the car had a niggle though - one-touch-up didn't work on the driver's side window and that really annoyed me as all my cars have that. Was exacerbated by seeing that it did indeed work on the passenger side!

My son loved it (he's 3.5) and the wife was instantly a fan too. Parents also liked it. My father being a major lover of powerful cars, immediately set about thinking of variants etc. This was of course, the first discussion upon returning to the showroom, but here the issues started.

As per the salesperson:
1. The car has a wet clutch gearbox; now, I know this is a lie! The 1.8TSI has the DQ200 dry clutch to the best of my knowledge. The brochure also says "7 speed" which points towards this - as the DQ250 is 6-speed!
2. He claimed that there have been absolutely no gearbox issues reported in the last 3 years - and even those that existed were on the "2012 model Superb only" and no other cars; particularly not the Octavia. Again, this seems very suspect - or an outright lie, given all the reviews I've been poring over
3. Despite all this, he seemed very wary of making any commitments at all on service level - beyond saying "But hey! You have a warranty!" which isn't comforting, as frankly, the warranty will cover the cost of spares, but not the cost of time lost! Nor the consumables, of course.

Spoke to my neighbour after that who owns a Superb and has just bought a Hexa. He was fairly unequivocal in saying that while it's a fantastic car, the service is a complete nightmare even now. In his words, "all the service guys are cheats and thieves. They rip you off continually and if you buy the car, you should just pray that nothing ever goes wrong, as when it does, even the smallest issue will spiral into a tragedy". The other interesting thing he said was that whenever he (or anyone he knows with a Skoda) has an electronics related issue which is not directly diagnosed, it always seems like the service center takes a "trial and error" approach in a piecemeal manner - while charging you for everything.

Must admit - leaving this with a very strange feeling. The car is a winner. But the package seems to make me wonder why not just buy a proper SUV instead from a more reliable source as the main vehicle and then buy a small sedan / MUV for the family work... Would mean 2 SUVs in the garage, but well, have space and would rather have that and peace of mind...

[speedmiester]

Originally Posted by imidnightmare

The warranty will cover the cost of spares, but not the cost of time lost! Nor the consumables, of course.

As you rightly said, Warranty will not compensate for the peace of mind or the time lost in dealing with the mechanical gremlins.
It all comes down to how much are your ready to compromise for the fun to drive factor.

Personally I have Zero patience nor time to get behind such issues. This is one of the many reasons why there won't be a Skoda in my parking lot for a long time.

[imidnightmare]

Originally Posted by speedmiester

As you rightly said, Warranty will not compensate for the peace of mind or the time lost in dealing with the mechanical gremlins.
It all comes down to how much are your ready to compromise for the fun to drive factor.

Personally I have Zero patience nor time to get behind such issues. This is one of the many reasons why there won't be a Skoda in my parking lot for a long time.

Yeah - that's basically why I've decided to reject this option too and hunt for something other than a Skoda. It's irritating, because there is basically no sedan in the segment which (in my limited opinion) offers value. When comparing features vis-à-vis performance vis-à-vis price, the SUVs come into the picture as far better options. So if you're committed to a sedan for other reasons, you're stuck. The Octavia would be an absolutely brilliant purchase if not for the reliability and service issues. Oh well, it is what it is. Back to the drawing board... sigh...

[androdev]

i might sound controversial but if you speak to an ex-skoda owner who moved to the big germans, he will usually have very nice things to say about skoda cars. this is because skoda (and vw) cars offer 80% of the big germans at much more reasonable price. but if someone is primarily from a Honda/Toyota camp but had a brief fling with skoda, then he is likely not to have good things to say about it. i am overly generalising here but i believe this is the reason behind such a polarised opinion about skoda cars. there is truth in both camps, just a different perspective.

a skoda octavia with extended warranty and Rs 30-40k per year service budget is a reasonable plan and it is worth it if you are a 'car guy' or your family is a 'car family'. there are enough ownership threads about 7sp DSG to get a sense of what to expect and IMO it is not too bad. the failures are getting fewer, the free-of-cost repairs are near certain and even if out of pocket expense repair, the cost is about 1L. i am only talking about the general perception of risk of owning a skoda and not the features and suitability of it.

if you ask why bother? yes, why bother.

[imidnightmare]

Originally Posted by androdev

i might sound controversial but if you speak to an ex-skoda owner who moved to the big germans, he will usually have very nice things to say about skoda cars. this is because skoda (and vw) cars offer 80% of the big germans at much more reasonable price. but if someone is primarily from a Honda/Toyota camp but had a brief fling with skoda, then he is likely not to have good things to say about it. i am overly generalising here but i believe this is the reason behind such a polarised opinion about skoda cars. there is truth in both camps, just a different perspective.

a skoda octavia with extended warranty and Rs 30-40k per year service budget is a reasonable plan and it is worth it if you are a 'car guy' or your family is a 'car family'. there are enough ownership threads about 7sp DSG to get a sense of what to expect and IMO it is not too bad. the failures are getting fewer, the free-of-cost repairs are near certain and even if out of pocket expense repair, the cost is about 1L. i am only talking about the general perception of risk of owning a skoda and not the features and suitability of it.

if you ask why bother? yes, why bother.

Have owned a wide array of cars across makers. The issues for me are simple with Skoda. Speaking to all the owners, the sense is that there's major frustration with service; a neighbour (Superb owner) called it "the best car I've ever had, when I have it" before going on to say that "if you have it, all you do is pray that nothing goes wrong".

In my case, my experience was that the showroom staff put me off by lying outright; it's well known that the 1.8 TSI has the DQ200 dry clutch and it was obvious I knew my onions, yet they lied about it continuously for hours. They then came up with the completely bizarre explanation that "the gearbox model is known even to us only when we do a PDI and can be any of the models". The feeling that the guy is lying to you so blatantly at this stage as well, is not a good one.

As regards the replacement costs etc., it's not the cost I worry about but the amount of time lost. Were I to buy it, it would be my fourth car, but the primary sedan. Can't have that sitting in the SC for days on end!

Bottomline: Yeah, it's about what you value. For me, somehow, I may have been more willing to take the risk had the showroom staff been more honest about things. They weren't and it just added to the massive doubts about the service. Plus the word from the parent group (I know someone there) was also that they're fully aware that service is cack, but have no intention of changing things apart from "continuing trying to work with the partners to improve things". Not good enough.

[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by androdev

i might sound controversial but if you speak to an ex-skoda owner who moved to the big germans, he will usually have very nice things to say about skoda cars. this is because skoda (and vw) cars offer 80% of the big germans at much more reasonable price. but if someone is primarily from a Honda/Toyota camp but had a brief fling with skoda, then he is likely not to have good things to say about it. i am overly generalising here but i believe this is the reason behind such a polarised opinion about skoda cars. there is truth in both camps, just a different perspective.

Can't disagree with this right here! I've owned a couple of Skodas, some Germans, and of course the Jap brigade. The Skoda is a well priced German, and it has it's downsides which you will also experience with the more expensive Germans (long wait times, spotty reliability, expensive parts, etc.) - but also offers better quality interiors, fantastic ride & handling, etc.

The Superb offers as brilliant an experience as the A6 (overall, the A6 wins some stuff, the Superb wins some stuff) at nearly 60% of the price.

But I'm of the opinion that these cars are great if you drive them - after all, you need to enjoy the better quality of interiors, better power and tech, etc.
For the driver driven, nothing beats the more practical alternatives like the Corolla with the rear seat recline, better support, and peace of mind service!

Originally Posted by imidnightmare

Spoke to my neighbour after that who owns a Superb and has just bought a Hexa. He was fairly unequivocal in saying that while it's a fantastic car, the service is a complete nightmare even now. In his words, "all the service guys are cheats and thieves. They rip you off continually and if you buy the car, you should just pray that nothing ever goes wrong, as when it does, even the smallest issue will spiral into a tragedy". The other interesting thing he said was that whenever he (or anyone he knows with a Skoda) has an electronics related issue which is not directly diagnosed, it always seems like the service center takes a "trial and error" approach in a piecemeal manner - while charging you for everything.

Must admit - leaving this with a very strange feeling. The car is a winner. But the package seems to make me wonder why not just buy a proper SUV instead from a more reliable source as the main vehicle and then buy a small sedan / MUV for the family work... Would mean 2 SUVs in the garage, but well, have space and would rather have that and peace of mind...

What Superb does your neighbour own? The pre-2011 models were very unreliable especially the 1.8TSi.

Since you liked the experience, would you be open to considering a TDi DSG that is significantly more reliable in terms of gearbox? It could be a compromise between reliability & FTD.
There will be niggles that could crop up (AC & sensors primarily) - so get the extended warranty, and after the warranty expires - find a friendly neighbourhood garage that has the expertise with VAG vehicles, can source parts cheaper, etc.

However, given the car has been in the market for a good number of years (pre-facelift), I'd expect most of the niggles to have been sorted out by now with only minor niggles that will continue taking place due to our environment (like the sensors due to dust, etc.)

Also, visit JMD Skoda - I've only heard good things about them recently.

Did you have a go with the Elantra? Power aside, you may just really like the car.

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by androdev

i might sound controversial but if you speak to an ex-skoda owner who moved to the big germans, he will usually have very nice things to say about skoda cars. this is because skoda (and vw) cars offer 80% of the big germans at much more reasonable price. but if someone is primarily from a Honda/Toyota camp but had a brief fling with skoda, then he is likely not to have good things to say about it. i am overly generalising here but i believe this is the reason behind such a polarised opinion about skoda cars. there is truth in both camps, just a different perspective.

a skoda octavia with extended warranty and Rs 30-40k per year service budget is a reasonable plan and it is worth it if you are a 'car guy' or your family is a 'car family'. there are enough ownership threads about 7sp DSG to get a sense of what to expect and IMO it is not too bad. the failures are getting fewer, the free-of-cost repairs are near certain and even if out of pocket expense repair, the cost is about 1L. i am only talking about the general perception of risk of owning a skoda and not the features and suitability of it.

if you ask why bother? yes, why bother.

You've raised a good point here. My neighbour has just sacked off his Cruze and bought his dream E220D, but I had to sit down when I heard how much MBIL has charged him for a minor rear shunt resulting in a broken bumper bracket and repainting of the same. He calculated that he had maintained his beloved Cruze for 3 years with that same amount .

In my case, I use my Octavia daily at peak times through some of the most congested BLR traffic you can find. Do I want to upgrade to a 5 series in a couple of years? Hell, yes but will I be able to stomach sitting in stationary traffic, and have bikers scrape past without the slightest care? No, I can't!

Hence, a sensible choice will be to stay 'constrained' to the Superb or Passat or Camry.

Fact is that prices of every vehicle manufacturer has gone up many times with the conscious hikes + inflation + GST + 1% TCS effect. However, I personally feel Skoda has NOT raised its product or service costs by that much as have some other manufacturers like Hyundai.

[imidnightmare]

Originally Posted by lamborghini

What Superb does your neighbour own? The pre-2011 models were very unreliable especially the 1.8TSi.

Since you liked the experience, would you be open to considering a TDi DSG that is significantly more reliable in terms of gearbox? It could be a compromise between reliability & FTD.
There will be niggles that could crop up (AC & sensors primarily) - so get the extended warranty, and after the warranty expires - find a friendly neighbourhood garage that has the expertise with VAG vehicles, can source parts cheaper, etc.

However, given the car has been in the market for a good number of years (pre-facelift), I'd expect most of the niggles to have been sorted out by now with only minor niggles that will continue taking place due to our environment (like the sensors due to dust, etc.)

Also, visit JMD Skoda - I've only heard good things about them recently.

Did you have a go with the Elantra? Power aside, you may just really like the car.

Post-2011 and he goes to JMD; doesn't have a single positive thing to say about them either. In fact, he's all praises for the car itself. Like everyone with half a brain, the pluses are clear to him - ride quality, features etc. to match the class above (at times two classes above) at a phenomenal price. The service though, he can't get himself to say a single positive about. That's the issue and the reason I'm very reluctantly looking away from the Octy. The diesel mill just doesn't give the "feel" and so I'm just going to wait now for upgrades / new launches / itchy feet. The prices I'll get are post-cess anyway given it's March already - and it will be company-registered, so even depreciation benefit won't be availed, given it'll be on the books only next FY.

On the Elantra, tried it and just didn't "get" the car. I'd rather the Altis if I'm buying for the rear seat! The car will be 50% chauffeur-driven, so I need to strike a balance - and the Octy is not worth the hassle as per the opinion of "the family". They were a bit put off by the lying of the dealers and while they loved the ride, feedback from their friends was also consistent - and could really be summed up by, "Well, if you want to spend, put in a bit more and buy a Bimmer / Merc / Jag instead".

[androdev]

Originally Posted by imidnightmare

a neighbour .. all you do is pray that nothing goes wrong.

Why don't you ask him how much downtime he had, how much personal time he spent on the follow up, how much out of pocket expenses he incurred? That would be more objective and you can take a call depending on your own appetite.

Originally Posted by itwasntme

My neighbour ... how much MBIL has charged him for a minor rear shunt..

Did he not have insurance?

If you can get past the vague comments of neighbours and colleagues and do some math, it is easy to work out the cost of ownership of these German cars. Few years back, we did not have many products like ext warranties, zero dep insurance covers, service packages, etc. and it was truly wild west. But not any more. You can buy any mainstream German car and manage a predictable cost of ownership. Yes, it will not be cheap as all these covers cost money and you have to take a call if it is worth it. My 5-series is entering into 8th year and I am renewing the zero depreciation insurance and it had BSI till 6 years.

Apart from the Germans becoming more reliable and offering more predictable cost of ownership (not cheap, but predictable) there is another interesting thing I would like to share. Back in 2007 when I was shopping for a car, if you wanted an executive sedan that you can enjoy driving there were plenty of options: laura, civic, cedia, optra, elantra, corolla, accord, superb, sonata, camry, etc. All of them had fantastic quality. if you take corolla, it has become a lot worse since 2007. we had a 2007 corolla till recently and it had great quality and class. we replaced it with the current gen corolla and everyone regrets it, it feels like a very cheap car to be in and looks ugly outside. during this same period, octavia kept on getting better. current vRS is a dream car for many and tsi+dsg is as good as it gets.

i have total respect for people who buy a toyota or maruti car for peace of mind. in my own family we always have a corolla. but in this age of improved reliability, ext warranties, zero dep insurances, etc. peace of mind is not the exclusive domain of a toyota.

[imidnightmare]

Originally Posted by androdev

Why don't you ask him how much downtime he had, how much personal time he spent on the follow up, how much out of pocket expenses he incurred? That would be more objective and you can take a call depending on your own appetite.

Checked; was fairly substantial. His experience is quite possibly not representative of course but common cribs include:
1. No free pick-up / drop; also even this is available only with appointments which are very difficult to get (in his words - this I've not validated)
2. Time taken is 3-5 days on average per visit, which is far above standard expectations
3. Consumables costs are far higher than desired - specially as a lot of the replacements seem unnecessary; at times, escalations have resulted in helping draw this back, pointing to decent reviews above deciding that there was over-charging
4. Breakdown visits and part replacements could range from 7-45 days - as part availability is a b**ch.

Originally Posted by androdev

Back in 2007 when I was shopping for a car, if you wanted an executive sedan that you can enjoy driving there were plenty of options: laura, civic, cedia, optra, elantra, corolla, accord, superb, sonata, camry, etc. All of them had fantastic quality. if you take corolla, it has become a lot worse since 2007. we had a 2007 corolla till recently and it had great quality and class. we replaced it with the current gen corolla and everyone regrets it, it feels like a very cheap car to be in and looks ugly outside. during this same period, octavia kept on getting better. current vRS is a dream car for many and tsi+dsg is as good as it gets.

i have total respect for people who buy a toyota or maruti car for peace of mind. in my own family we always have a corolla. but in this age of improved reliability, ext warranties, zero dep insurances, etc. peace of mind is not the exclusive domain of a toyota.

This sums up everything I've said for over a year now. There is no sedan - barring the Octavia - that actually offers a better value proposition today than 10 years ago. I too bought a Corolla in 2007 and that car is far superior to what came after. I wouldn't touch the Altis - specially at the price. The big issue I have is that while the "checklist" of features exists, the quality has deteriorated across the board; barring the Octavia again, there is no car that offers good, solid build with a nice engine, comfort and ride quality as well as a bunch of features to keep me happy.

Frankly, I'll be honest - if the Octy had a DQ250 on the 1.8 TSI L&K, I'd jump at it. Instead, I'm going to wait a short bit and then perhaps go for the vRS which addresses my gearbox concerns. Yes, the service will still be a concern, but I'm far more worried about the gearbox than the 20-25 days it may spend in the service center every year...

[androdev]

Originally Posted by imidnightmare

1. No free pick-up / drop; also even this is available only with appointments which are very difficult to get (in his words - this I've not validated)
2. Time taken is 3-5 days on average per visit, which is far above standard expectations
3. Consumables costs are far higher than desired - specially as a lot of the replacements seem unnecessary; at times, escalations have resulted in helping draw this back, pointing to decent reviews above deciding that there was over-charging
4. Breakdown visits and part replacements could range from 7-45 days - as part availability is a b**ch.

I would agree with his description with following riders:

1. Free pick up is offered by everybody these days, however need to plan the appointments well in advance. This is true for all brands I feel. I have not found it to be a problem.

2. For routine service, our corolla and city are returned in a couple of hours, it's as if they are going to charge me parking fees if the car stays for longer The EU cars are never returned in rush but then again it has always been next day for routine servicing.

3. Consumable costs are indeed high but not crazy high. It is not because of higher margins but the parts are expensive (not much localisation). Wipers, battery, brakes, filter, etc. are all imported and cost accordingly. They always inform you about what would be changed and you can tell them no to unnecessary items including paid car wash, etc.

4. Parts availability: the routine service and repair parts are readily available at the dealer. yes, sometimes parts can take upto 30 days especially if the car is being repaired after an accident during EU holidays

If I only have one car then I would find all these little downtimes very irritating as I will have to make alternate arrangements for kids, wife, office, etc. and would prefer a car that spends least amount of time at the dealer.

This sums up everything I've said for over a year now. There is no sedan - barring the Octavia - that actually offers a better value proposition today than 10 years ago. I too bought a Corolla in 2007 and that car is far superior to what came after. I wouldn't touch the Altis - specially at the price. The big issue I have is that while the "checklist" of features exists, the quality has deteriorated across the board; barring the Octavia again, there is no car that offers good, solid build with a nice engine, comfort and ride quality as well as a bunch of features to keep me happy.

Exactly. When I was buying Laura diesel (noisy), I was torn between Civic and Laura. Civic was beautiful looking with a nice petrol engine.

[imidnightmare]

Originally Posted by androdev

If I only have one car then I would find all these little downtimes very irritating as I will have to make alternate arrangements for kids, wife, office, etc. and would prefer a car that spends least amount of time at the dealer.

And just like that, you've managed to get me back to asking Autobahn for a fresh quotation.

Seriously though, thanks for that. A reality check always helps and I reckon it's worth the rethink. We have four cars across four people (only two of whom can drive), so maybe an indulgence is due... though I am terrified of regretting this later

[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by androdev

Apart from the Germans becoming more reliable and offering more predictable cost of ownership (not cheap, but predictable)

While I agree with everything you would say, this is one thing I will just not agree with! With more tech, these new Germans are becoming more unreliable in my honest opinion.
Yes, ownership costs are becoming more predictable, but only when under full coverage from the company (EW / BSI etc.) - once those expire, you're pretty much left on your own.

Originally Posted by imidnightmare

And just like that, you've managed to get me back to asking Autobahn for a fresh quotation.

Seriously though, thanks for that. A reality check always helps and I reckon it's worth the rethink. We have four cars across four people (only two of whom can drive), so maybe an indulgence is due... though I am terrified of regretting this later

If this is the case, go for it! Maybe retain the Corolla if you can for the 'beater' duties, and keep the Octavia for yourself.
BTW, one of my friends was saying that Autobahn had a 2017 Superb TSi DSG Available with them in brown - with a decent discount making it possibly worth stretching from the Octavia for it.
I'd expect reliability of both cars to be similar as mechanicals are the same.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by lamborghini

While I agree with everything you would say, this is one thing I will just not agree with! With more tech, these new Germans are becoming more unreliable in my honest opinion.
Yes, ownership costs are becoming more predictable, but only when under full coverage from the company (EW / BSI etc.) - once those expire, you're pretty much left on your own.

I feel most of the components that were failing have matured from quality and reliability point of view during the last 10-15 years. What used to fail with near certainty are now considered fairly reliable. Example: turbo chargers, air suspension, balance shafts, timing belts, EGR/CatCon, fuel injectors, ABS/ESP sensors, engine mounts, power window motors, etc. Even the dreaded DSG has come a long way, enough to appeal to car buyers with 10L budget (polo tsi). I follow few global car forums and the frequency of posts related to problems during early years has come down dramatically to the point one member joked that this forum feels like a Lexus forum.

But yes, it is not to say they are anywhere close to the Japanese brands.
[/quote]

Originally Posted by imidnightmare

And just like that, you've managed to get me back to asking Autobahn for a fresh quotation.

Seriously though, thanks for that. A reality check always helps and I reckon it's worth the rethink. We have four cars across four people (only two of whom can drive), so maybe an indulgence is due... though I am terrified of regretting this later

Indulgence is the proper word. Assuming your dad and you are going to drive it, I'd consider it money 'extremely' well spent. If you want to be strict with budget, this is what I would suggest:

1. buy the cheapest tsi+dsg variant. tsi+dsg is why one should buy this car, the rest is all just garnish. if your dad and you use the same driving position, then you will not miss electric+memory seats.
2. buy after market leather for seats. it is more comfortable than OEM. make sure it is close to OEM look.
3. buy warranty, zero depreciation insurance, service package. i believe skoda has priced these really well.
4. do not spend any money on paint protection, tire/wheel changes, etc.

I feel the above will give you a precise estimate of ownership costs for the next 4 years and that should be of enough comfort to most people unless you are really digging into your savings account.

what happens after 4 years? you will live with the knowledge that you pushed that shiny red button.

[imidnightmare]

Originally Posted by lamborghini

If this is the case, go for it! Maybe retain the Corolla if you can for the 'beater' duties, and keep the Octavia for yourself.
BTW, one of my friends was saying that Autobahn had a 2017 Superb TSi DSG Available with them in brown - with a decent discount making it possibly worth stretching from the Octavia for it.
I'd expect reliability of both cars to be similar as mechanicals are the same.

Will check the Superb option, thanks. As for retaining, not sure what to retain. Have the Corolla and City - with the latter being a younger car. City isn't a patch on the Corolla though - so perhaps the Corolla will stay. Brio and Hexa stay anyway - one for the market work and the other for the long family trips...

Originally Posted by androdev

Indulgence is the proper word. Assuming your dad and you are going to drive it, I'd consider it money 'extremely' well spent. If you want to be strict with budget, this is what I would suggest:

1. buy the cheapest tsi+dsg variant. tsi+dsg is why one should buy this car, the rest is all just garnish. if your dad and you use the same driving position, then you will not miss electric+memory seats.
2. buy after market leather for seats. it is more comfortable than OEM. make sure it is close to OEM look.
3. buy warranty, zero depreciation insurance, service package. i believe skoda has priced these really well.
4. do not spend any money on paint protection, tire/wheel changes, etc.

I feel the above will give you a precise estimate of ownership costs for the next 4 years and that should be of enough comfort to most people unless you are really digging into your savings account.

what happens after 4 years? you will live with the knowledge that you pushed that shiny red button.

Interesting to hear that - given I'm looking at the vRS as well - the DQ250 sounds a lot more comforting than the DQ200 and of course the power... Sigh...
Am getting a 1.1L package deal for 4 years' service + consumables (only service is 40K); do you guys think it's worth it?