[rockyjee]

Requirements:

• Budget is 10-13L
• Has to be an automatic
• Has to be reliable
• Should be fun to drive, daily running would be mostly within the city, with occasional weekends spent driving between DEL-CHD, I am expecting a monthly average of ~1000 Kms, although my current Scorpio has done 128,000 in 8.5 years, which is a good ~15000 Kms per year/~1250 Kms per month
• Should be robust, no squeaky panels, brakes, vents… I am so done with Mahindra on this
• Has to have classy and timeless looks, no gimmicky features and personally colors as well, no flashy oranges or reds for me
• Infrequent trips to the service station… I don’t mind paying a little on the higher side once in a while but it has to be genuine and I should see the point, service or parts quality or otherwise, why I am paying more, again I am tired of keeping an eye on my car and watch when the car is getting serviced at Mahindra, chatting away with other Bolero drivers :0(
• Good boot, two boys, wife, dad, strollers, luggage, we travel in style and bulk

After countless hours looking at the forums, reading threads for which car and numerous visits to dealers virtually and physically I narrowed it down to the following:

• Verna 4S 1.6 SX CRDI AT
• City CVT VX
• Rapid Elegance AT DSG
• Vento TSI (Highline)
• Vento DSG TSI (Highline)

As the thread name suggests, I have narrowed it down to the Vento, some of my reasons being:

• Verna, didn’t like the build of the car, NO; 4 speed AT at this price, NO NO
• Rapid, somehow don’t like the looks of the car, my personal opinion, I would prefer the classy Vento cousins any day, and since I know they are genetically the same, I never took it seriously
• City, close second, pros being the start-stop and smart key gimmick (am I contradicting myself? ;0), sun roof, boys would love it, paddle shifts are a better way simply… But the welcome or the lack of it as the Honda dealership, the ridiculous price being offered for my Scorpio, the 3 or so month waiting, the low roof at the back, the mixed textures in the dash, the big hazard switch, smaller 2 (or is it 1.5) DIN system with lots of touch sensitive glossy black panels all around made me think otherwise… I haven’t given it up completely but almost have

Coming to the name of the thread, the Vento…

• I have always loved the clean classy design, the contemporary interiors (am I getting old, I wonder?)
• The excellent build quality, far superior handling, took it over potholes and everything
• The wonderful 7 speed transmission, the sweet note of the engine howling…
• All safety specs, ESP, airbags
• Good equipment, the facelift addresses the key missing bits like cruise control

There are cons as all the forums have suggested:

• The DSG has had issues (I haven’t read any recent ones, some threads suggest its been a good 1-2 years since a genuine case was reported, after the change in DSG oil, VW now recommends and use mineral oil instead of the earlier synthetic oil
• The higher price of sales and parts, addressed above as long it is genuine and I get satisfaction for what I am paying but not otherwise
• Lack of sunroof, paddle shifts, although the tiptronic is good but I would have loved the paddles!

Now to the dilemma aka question:
Which engine should I go for?

The TDI DSG or TSI?

Thoughts that I have:

• With my running I border line between petrol and diesel, I think… But with some reporting decent and some reporting okay, FE I don’t know whom or what to trust.
  
• With the improved TDI FE, Is the 1.25L difference upfront cost worth it?
  
• The TSI has a healthy 175Nm or torques, but the TDI has 250Nm, I have only driven the manual TDI (and the Jetta TDI DSG for a feel of the transmission) and the pull just pushes you back! I have driven the GT TSI and that day was the day that this dilemma began, else I was certain on TDI DSG. Would the weight kill the fun?
  
• Does the DQ2000 transmission, pose a risk with 250Nm of torques? Can the petrol handle it?
  
• Green laws, sooner or later the SC would pass the Delhi law and ban 10+ year old cars and I would have to sell the car ahead of time. My Scorpio could have served me a couple of more years but a few months later there would be no value, it is a DL number and I am a DL-ite (Delhite), so few years later I would head back and have to sell this car back in Delhi. Worse the same laws would be applicable to all states… Am I thinking way ahead? Am I unreal or practical?
  
• I would want the car to be silent, no squeaks, noises (as suggested). Is the VW TDI refined in the long term inside. New car’s NVH is pretty impressive and I am okay in buying a diesel again

Any suggestions, healthy discussions, feedback is more than welcome. I need to book the facelift and end this dilemma!!

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by rockyjee

Requirements:

• Should be fun to drive, daily running would be mostly within the city, with occasional weekends spent driving between DEL-CHD, I am expecting a monthly average of ~1000 Kms, although my current Scorpio has done 128,000 in 8.5 years, which is a good ~15000 Kms per year/~1250 Kms per month
• Infrequent trips to the service station… I don’t mind paying a little on the higher side once in a while but it has to be genuine and I should see the point, service or parts quality

Hi rockyjee
TSI will give you less visits to the service station and also less maintenance bills. Your expected running of around 1000 km/month calls for TSI. Even with 15000 km/month, difference of 1.25L will not be justified.

Originally Posted by rockyjee

Requirements:
The TSI has a healthy 175Nm or torques, but the TDI has 250Nm, I have only driven the manual TDI (and the Jetta TDI DSG for a feel of the transmission) and the pull just pushes you back! I have driven the GT TSI and that day was the day that this dilemma began, else I was certain on TDI DSG. Would the weight kill the fun?

175 Nm torque shall be surely adequate and comfortable for 1170 kg kerb weight of the car. Though the massive 250 Nm torque of TDI is unmatched, 175 Nm torque of TSI shall be really comfortable and adequate. In bargain, you get less NVH levels and a rev-happy engine. Do take a TD of TSI DSG to confirm yourself.

Originally Posted by rockyjee

Requirements:
Does the DQ2000 transmission, pose a risk with 250Nm of torques?

I expect the transmission to be capable of transmitting the torque of 250 Nm. This is a peak torque and this much torque will be developed only if (and when) the car has that much load (like inclines, pick-up, more payload etc.)

But, in general, TDI will be developing more torque than TSI and though the transmission is capable, maintenance cost will be more in the long run, compared to TSI. This is because there is more load on clutches and bearings.

Originally Posted by rockyjee

Requirements:
Green laws, sooner or later the SC would pass the Delhi law and ban 10+ year old cars and I would have to sell the car ahead of time.

As far as resale is concerned, City is easier and quicker to sell off IMO.


So, TSI is more suitable IMO. Dont buy TDI just for lower running costs; at 10-15000 km/year, TSI will have lower total cost of ownership.
If your heart says TDI and if you can afford, then go for it. Budget the maintenance expenses properly.

[GTO]

With most cars, one engine is clearly the superior. Not so with the Vento where the TDI & TSI are both excellent engines. Your confusion is understandable.

Originally Posted by rockyjee

Should be fun to drive

I am expecting a monthly average of ~1000 Kms

Is the 1.25L difference upfront cost worth it?

I would want the car to be silent

All of these point toward the TSI. Your running isn't too high, you're looking for fun and low NVH is important to you.

Buy the TSI and have fun. It's the rockstar of the C2 segment, no other petrol automatic can touch it. The turbo-petrol is a jewel of an engine, and the DSG is as fast as they come.

The single downside to the Vento DSG is its suspect reliability. I'm still not convinced that VW has sorted out its long-term durability. It's up to your risk appetite. That said, make sure you get the max warranty option available.

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

TSI will give you less visits to the service station and also less maintenance bills.

Untrue. He's looking at one visit a year on an average with either car for services. The TSI is a complex motor, hence it won't be significantly cheaper to own in the long run.

TSI will have lower total cost of ownership.

Quite a sweeping statement to make. 'Total cost of ownership' should also take resale into consideration and - whatever the situation - a used diesel AT will fetch a substantially higher price than a used petrol AT. Look at any classifieds and gauge the price difference between petrol & diesel ATs of the same car.

[The Rationalist]

rockyjee, if the spy shots are true Ford is going to reintroduce the Fiesta with DCT. Will be cheaper than the Vento twins. Yes the engine is not a scorcher like the Vento twins but the Fiesta has a better ride and handling is its forte.

[rockyjee]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

175 Nm torque shall be surely adequate and comfortable for 1170 kg kerb weight of the car. Though the massive 250 Nm torque of TDI is unmatched, 175 Nm torque of TSI shall be really comfortable and adequate. In bargain, you get less NVH levels and a rev-happy engine. Do take a TD of TSI DSG to confirm yourself.

Originally Posted by bosporus

Incidentally, the Gurgaon showroom has both the TSI & TDI DSGs, so get a test drive here in case you're ever visit.

Yes the TD of the TDI DSG is really high on my agenda, but the car isn’t available here and would go to Gurgaon in the coming weekends and get a TD there. I can try for the Rapid TD, but I read a couple of posts where the folks were ruling out the Vento because they test drove the Rapid and it was terrible?

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

So, TSI is more suitable IMO. Dont buy TDI just for lower running costs; at 10-15000 km/year, TSI will have lower total cost of ownership.
If your heart says TDI and if you can afford, then go for it. Budget the maintenance expenses properly.

My heart and part of my head is saying, go for the TSI due to all the reasons that you, GTO have said. My other part of my head is saying resale, low running cost and the rest of the heart is filled with the desire for the rest 75 or so torques that the diesel punch gives you!

Originally Posted by GTO

The single downside to the Vento DSG is its suspect reliability. I'm still not convinced that VW has sorted out its long-term durability. It's up to your risk appetite. That said, make sure you get the max warranty option available.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Not really. The issues are with DSG + Petrol TSI because that was the launched first. The Diesel + DSG came in the Vento and Rapid only last year so we haven't heard of anything yet. The Vento TSI and Polo TSI with DSG were launched in 2013.

That is a concern, but GTO I haven’t read others complaining about it in recent times. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, the other threads have also suggested that the oil changes have corrected it. Irrespective of the engine, I am going to go in for the extended warranty for sure!

Originally Posted by GTO

Quite a sweeping statement to make. 'Total cost of ownership' should also take resale into consideration and - whatever the situation - a used diesel AT will fetch a substantially higher price than a used petrol AT. Look at any classifieds and gauge the price difference between petrol & diesel ATs of the same car.

Precisely, the cumulative difference of running it on diesel and getting more resale is what my head is divided for. Owners are reporting a good NVH handing, the engine is smooth to run, for the nth time there is oodles of torque.

So it is okay to shell out more right now?

Vento TDI DSG owners, is there anything on the point of refinement that you dislike?

On a different note, I just drove a friend’s Audi A3, Diesel DSG, 320Nm torques, 143bhp, loved the TDI on the machine!

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by GTO

Untrue. He's looking at one visit a year on an average with either car for services. The TSI is a complex motor, hence it won't be significantly cheaper to own in the long run.

Noted with thanks.
One visit a year is for routine preventive maintenance. In the long run, the owner may need to visit more frequently and I expect this frequency to be more for TDI than for TCI.
Apart from the turbo, does TSI have any other complex systems?

Originally Posted by GTO

Quite a sweeping statement to make. 'Total cost of ownership' should also take resale into consideration and - whatever the situation - a used diesel AT will fetch a substantially higher price than a used petrol AT. Look at any classifieds and gauge the price difference between petrol & diesel ATs of the same car.

Naturally, the TCO shall account for re-sale price too; I always take this into consideration. I have not done the calculation for TSI vs TDI but my feel is TSI shall have lower TCO at 10-15k km/year. My feel is based on calculations done in past for other cars.

[Rajeevraj]

Originally Posted by rockyjee

Requirements:

The TDI DSG or TSI?

Thoughts that I have:

With my running I border line between petrol and diesel, I think… But with some reporting decent and some reporting okay, FE I don’t know whom or what to trust.

The TSI has a healthy 175Nm or torques, but the TDI has 250Nm, I have only driven the manual TDI (and the Jetta TDI DSG for a feel of the transmission) and the pull just pushes you back! I have driven the GT TSI and that day was the day that this dilemma began, else I was certain on TDI DSG. Would the weight kill the fun?

Any suggestions, healthy discussions, feedback is more than welcome. I need to book the facelift and end this dilemma!!

Originally Posted by rockyjee

Yes the TD of the TDI DSG is really high on my agenda, but the car isn’t available here and would go to Gurgaon in the coming weekends and get a TD there.
That is a concern, but GTO I haven’t read others complaining about it in recent times. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, the other threads have also suggested that the oil changes have corrected it. Irrespective of the engine, I am going to go in for the extended warranty for sure!

Tough decision. Few inputs that can help

• Factor in an increase in usage. The car is such a joy to drive that you will tend to find excuses to take it out. So I am pretty sure you will end up doing more long drives than you did in the Scorpio. This is from personal experience. I used to average 5-7000 km per year in my earlier cars. With the Vento TSI. In 18 months I am at 18,000 and several of the long trips were just because I had this car.
  
• You may have already seen it, there is one thread here on DSG jerking issue. It is not a DSG failure as such. But thought I should call it out in case you had not seen it.
  
  
  • http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ing-issue.html
• On TDI vs TSI, there was a discussion around it in the Vento Facelift thread. Again, you may have read it, I had put some points in favor of the TSI and bhpian rejeen had some good counter points to make
  
  • http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3721441
    
    
  • http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3721625
• On the power and torque, I personally feel the TSI numbers are good enough and did not see any noticeable difference in performance with the Polo TSI. Of course, the Polo being a hatch is a tighter car and hence has better dynamics, but outright drivability, the additional weight of the Vento does not make a difference in real world conditions.
  
• If you find it insufficient after some time, you can always do a remap. There are several owners here running with a Pete's remap that bumps power to 126 and Torque to 210.

Ultimately, I feel a TD will help clear some of your confusion. So hope you can get a back to back TD of both soon.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by rockyjee

I would want the car to be silent, no squeaks, noises. Is the VW TDI refined in the long term inside.

This one point alone suggests you get the Tsi. The Tdi is far from silent. The engine will surely make its presence felt when you step on it too. Even on the highways, while the diesel noise drowns out, it is nowhere as good as the Tsi motor. It is my personal take, I found engine+gearbox match making better on the Tsi. You need to drive the cars back to back to know the difference.

Efficiency is with the Tdi. The Tsi, with all the advancement, does not manage to be as efficient as they claim. In my city, it hovers around 9-10kmpl. If you take it easy on the highway, it can go up to 17. Take real world highway economy as 14-15. It is impossible to feather the accelerator pedal of the Tsi on the highway.

[bosporus]

Originally Posted by rockyjee

Requirements:

• Budget is 10-13L
• Has to be an automatic
• Has to be reliable
• Should be fun to drive, daily running would be mostly within the city, with occasional weekends spent driving between DEL-CHD, I am expecting a monthly average of ~1000 Kms, although my current Scorpio has done 128,000 in 8.5 years, which is a good ~15000 Kms per year/~1250 Kms per month
• Should be robust, no squeaky panels, brakes, vents… I am so done with Mahindra on this

I've lived with a TSI and a manual 1.6 TDI (have not cars in the family) and also having driven the TDI DSG quite a lot, I'd rate them as below:
1. pure driving fun: TSI: 100, TDI: 70
2. refinement: TSI: 100, TDI: 85
3. economy: TSI: 70, TDI: 100
4. very high mileage monthly usage: TSI: 60, TDI: 100

In short, for pure driving fun & refinement, close your eyes & go for the TSI, for no. 3, which is really relevant only if you also have a requirement for no. 4, go for TDI, else, it is not worth the premium at all.

IMPORTANTLY
Chandigarh is also my hometown, and naturally I keep visiting, and, I can vouch, it is no town for a TDI. Distances are so short, that the TDI will never get a chance to properly warm up, which means you're constantly reducing engine life and the life of all associated components. People in various international forums opine that it takes at least 10km to come to operating temperatures, and VW spokespersons have cautioned against buying a TDI if your trips, one way, are barely 6-7km. VW, in fact, calls that scenario high stress driving conditions, and recommend that FSI or TSI should be purchased for such conditions.

Of course, this changes if you are on the highway all the time, but since your usage is 80-90% Chandigarh, and your monthly running is also not high, I'd suggest you go with the TSI.

An aside: when you take the test drives, slam the accelerator just once on both the cars, and you will know exactly what I mean by my overwhelming vote for the TSI for both fun & refinement.

[Ajaybiz]

Mod Note : There are several spelling & grammatical errors in your posts. This negatively affects the forum experience for other readers.

Kindly ensure that you proof-read your posts prior to submission. Also, it would be a good idea to use a spell-checker.

[AirWind]

Originally Posted by rockyjee

On a different note, I just drove a friend’s Audi A3, Diesel DSG, 320Nm torques, 143bhp, loved the TDI on the machine!

Don't let the A3 fool you... I was given a Vento 1.6 TDI as standby for two wks until my Jetta TDI was delivered, I can tell you that Vento done 50K sounded like a tractor (doesnt have any sound proofing) and in comparison, my Jetta TDI was dead silent.

BTW, if you can afford the TDI DSG, then you should also look at the entry level Jetta 1.4 TSI

[H_Dogg72]

I would recommend the TSi.
The TDI will be noisy.
The TSi being a small engine is insanely weight sensitive. Load up the car and it will be dead in D mode, you'll have to go forward and use the S mode. The diesel, with the immense torque won't feel out of breadth.
Mod potential can improve the Tsi to such an extent that it will absolutely annihilate the TDI.
My recommendation: get the TSi and spend the 1.x Lakh on performance mods. You'll get refinement and power.
You can have a look at prithwi's and the saints threads for inspiration for the performance mods.
Go for the TSi, you won't regret it. It's my firecracker (Red GT TSi owner reporting)

Ps.if you're not inclined for an auto, have a look at the base Jetta, it'll give you better build quality, and 6 airbags.
I love the dsg, it makes driving effortless and you can be involved as well.
(Mods : cat back exhaust, Petes remap, Forge BOV, GTI steering with paddles, S drives 205, brembo slotted rotors, KW/B6/BC coilovers)
EDIT: Maintenance costs will be similar.

[estilo]

I am also currently in a similar predicament.

Choosing between a petrol or a diesel Rapid.
1.5 Elegance MT Black Package(D) on road for 10.42
1.6 Elegance MT Black Package(P) on road for 9.71

As the price difference on the models has narrowed down i am thinking of going for a diesel while my running per month is not more than 1000 Kms.

Petrol FE that i have heard is 9-11 Kmpl.
Diesel FE 14-18 Kmpl.

Please suggest on the long term maintenance costs of Diesel vs Petrol as I see people quoting "not much difference in costs". Everybody emphasizes on power but how much do we really need is the question.Does Petrol Rapid have any negatives besides FE?

[rockyjee]

After many days of planning, I finally did take a TD of the TSI.

Quick notes, although spent a few minutes only on the busy South Delhi roads, just one quick spin in the Safdurjung area and around the Ring Road..

The car seemed fairly quick, I did not feel that the additional weight was an issue with the Vento in comparison to the GT TSI

The D mode was able to handle the Delhi traffic easily, I had to overtake a couple of cars and it was nice

The S mode was waarriiii naaaiiiice, quick acceleration, felt really good, good howling of the engine.
But with normal bumper to bumper traffic I wasn't comfortable with the S mode and had to switch to the D mode. I felt the car was straining itself too much.

The AC did feel a little inadequate. My wife and son were in the back seat and the wife did point out that it was hot, I did turn the fan down to be able to hear the engine note. But it was 6 PM on a warm Delhi day so I don't know.

Has anybody felt the same? Is it okay to expect the S mode to work in such hard city traffic?

What about the AC, have heard about the blower speed being inadequate but not the cooling. The blowers seem fine to me.

The nice sales rep did explain the niceties of the facelift, and I was happy with all the info that I could soak in. He did say that the FE was practically 13-14 in Delhi. I have seen reviews and comments suggesting around 10.. TSI owners?

PS: Have to go back again this weekend and might drop in for another round of TDs, in my anxiety and eagerness, I wasn't happy with all the aspects that I could take a note of.

[Rajeevraj]

Originally Posted by rockyjee

The S mode was waarriiii naaaiiiice, quick acceleration, felt really good, good howling of the engine.
But with normal bumper to bumper traffic I wasn't comfortable with the S mode and had to switch to the D mode. I felt the car was straining itself too much.

The S mode is not good in bumper to bumper traffic. It pretty much holds to 2nd gear and makes it a little noisy and strained. For such conditions D mode is best suited. S mode is best for highway cruising or that quick overtaking when you do not want to stomp down on D mode and wait for the kick down.

Originally Posted by rockyjee

The AC did feel a little inadequate. My wife and son were in the back seat and the wife did point out that it was hot, I did turn the fan down to be able to hear the engine note. But it was 6 PM on a warm Delhi day so I don't know.

What about the AC, have heard about the blower speed being inadequate but not the cooling. The blowers seem fine to me.

Compared to the Japanese and Korean cars, the AC is a little less effective and takes some time to cool. Have never felt it in-adequate, but it can take time to cool the cabin especially if it is very hot. You typically need to run with high blower speed or set the ACC to the lowest for getting the cabin cooled quickly initially. Post that it is pretty good.

Originally Posted by rockyjee

The nice sales rep did explain the niceties of the facelift, and I was happy with all the info that I could soak in. He did say that the FE was practically 13-14 in Delhi. I have seen reviews and comments suggesting around 10.. TSI owners?

10-12 depending on the kind of city traffic. If you can consistently maintain atleast 40 kmph in D mode, it can give you 12-13. A combination of bumper to bumper traffic and free flowing traffic will give you 10-11. if you are in bumper to bumper for a long time, don't look at the mileage indicator at all

Another note on FE: I recently did a Bangalore-Chennai-Bangalore trip. ~700 km round trip,6 lane highway. Heavy traffic till the outskirts of both cities, and a free run in between. Was in S mode throughout and speed was consistently between 100-110 once out of the city traffic. Mileage for the trip was a very good 17.5 kmpl. I was able to make the full trip on one tank of fuel.