[pavanmadhini]

Folks, I have recently booked a Vento manual, but am now confused if I should change my booking to a Polo AT for the ESC. A Vento AT is a good 4 lakhs+ over the manual, and doesn't make sense financially.

I am quite tall, and the rear space in Polo would pretty much become unusable behind the driver's seat, effectively making it a 3 seater. I am really confused if I should opt for the additional space in the Vento manual or the added safety in the Polo AT.

Any thoughts? Is the ESC critical enough that I compromise on the interior space and boot space?

P.S. Didn't like the other cars in the 10-11 lakh price range much. None of them felt as solidly built as the VW twins nor as fun to drive.

[Shiftlock]

Originally Posted by pavanmadhini

Folks, I have recently booked a Vento manual, but am now confused if I should change my booking to a Polo AT for the ESC. A Vento AT is a good 4 lakhs+ over the manual, and doesn't make sense financially.

I am quite tall, and the rear space in Polo would pretty much become unusable behind the driver's seat, effectively making it a 3 seater. I am really confused if I should opt for the additional space in the Vento manual or the added safety in the Polo AT.

Any thoughts? Is the ESC critical enough that I compromise on the interior space and boot space?

P.S. Didn't like the other cars in the 10-11 lakh price range much. None of them felt as solidly built as the VW twins nor as fun to drive.

Hi Pavan,
Have you checked out the Ford Ecosport Titanium Petrol or Diesel? The 2021 model gets additional safety like Traction Control, ESC and even Hill launch assist. It is a well built car with amazing driving dynamics.

[pavanmadhini]

Originally Posted by Shiftlock

Hi Pavan,
Have you checked out the Ford Ecosport Titanium Petrol or Diesel? The 2021 model gets additional safety like Traction Control, ESC and even Hill launch assist. It is a well built car with amazing driving dynamics.

Hi Shiftlock,

Thanks for the response - Unsurprisingly, the Ecosport T+AT was our initial choice actually. It even has 6 airbags! We took multiple test drives and finally rejected it since my mom and wife both felt that the ride was quite bouncy in the city. We currently have a sedan and a hatchback, so probably the higher seating position left them a bit unsettled. The Vento, obviously, had significantly lesser body roll.

I am veering towards holding on to the Vento booking as of now.

[Shiftlock]

Originally Posted by pavanmadhini

Hi Shiftlock,

Thanks for the response - Unsurprisingly, the Ecosport T+AT was our initial choice actually. It even has 6 airbags! We took multiple test drives and finally rejected it since my mom and wife both felt that the ride was quite bouncy in the city. We currently have a sedan and a hatchback, so probably the higher seating position left them a bit unsettled. The Vento, obviously, had significantly lesser body roll.

I am veering towards holding on to the Vento booking as of now.

I see
The Vento is also a good car however have you considered it's sibling the Rapid? Additionally the Honda City base variant manual/automatic may fall into your budget if you want to take a look at it. It has all the safety features available right from the base variant that also happens to come with 4 airbags. I feel that its actually one of the most VFM base variant that offers all important features that matter to the end consumer.

[BigBrad]

The updated Swift gets ESP with Hill Hold Assist for all AT variants. Additionally, it also gets ISOFIX standard across the range!

[pavanmadhini]

Originally Posted by Shiftlock

I see
The Vento is also a good car however have you considered it's sibling the Rapid? Additionally the Honda City base variant manual/automatic may fall into your budget if you want to take a look at it. It has all the safety features available right from the base variant that also happens to come with 4 airbags. I feel that its actually one of the most VFM base variant that offers all important features that matter to the end consumer.

The Rapid also doesn't have ESC in the manuals and the Vento is better equipped in the less than 10L ex-showroom variants.
Honda City does look great, but I feel it doesn't handle as well as the Vento nor feel as well built as the Europeans.

Originally Posted by BigBrad

The updated Swift gets ESP with Hill Hold Assist for all AT variants. Additionally, it also gets ISOFIX standard across the range!
Attachment 2127970

I'm sure it's a fine car, but I am simply not a fan of the brand. Definitely a mind block, but I doubt if I'd ever buy a Maruti.


The question for me here is - do I get the manual Vento or the Polo AT?

[Shiftlock]

Originally Posted by pavanmadhini

The question for me here is - do I get the manual Vento or the Polo AT?

I understand the doubts regarding the lack of ESC in the Vento, can you elaborate on its usage? If its mostly city use then practicing careful driving can help mitigate the absence of ESC.

If backseat space is not a constraint and the car is going to be self driven then I would choose the Polo AT simply because of the convenience of the AT and the driving comfort it offers. however, if the space is required, the Vento is a great car and the TSI engine is a gem.

[pavanmadhini]

Originally Posted by Shiftlock

I understand the doubts regarding the lack of ESC in the Vento, can you elaborate on its usage? If its mostly city use then practicing careful driving can help mitigate the absence of ESC.

If backseat space is not a constraint and the car is going to be self driven then I would choose the Polo AT simply because of the convenience of the AT and the driving comfort it offers. however, if the space is required, the Vento is a great car and the TSI engine is a gem.

1. The usage will be a 50-50 mix between city and highways. For the immediate future, it'll probably be 70% highways for the next 6-8 months till WFH comes to an end.

2. Backseat space is a good to have for sure. Even a short person would find it hard to sit behind when I'm at the wheel. :(

Completely see-sawing now between the 2 options. Wife is now leaning towards the Polo for added safety and urban convenience.

[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by pavanmadhini

T...
Honda City does look great, but I feel it doesn't handle as well as the Vento nor feel as well built as the Europeans.
...

I really suggest you take a look at the Honda City. It's got ESC/ESP as a standard fitment across all variants and apart from the lighter build than the Vento, I think it is superior everywhere else.

The Vento with it's ultra soft rear suspension isn't a great handler to be honest.

[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by ashis89

No, I am talking about plain vanilla cruise control. I have 'felt' the car applying brakes when going downhill, to keep the speed in check. How does this work?

My car doesn't have ESP but has cruise control.

Edit: I read up on cruise control and everywhere it says that wire or sensors use throttle input to control the speed. Brakes are not part of CC system.

However, I have felt brief and minor tugs when the car is on a downward slope and the speed is increasing beyond the set limit. In a similar situation, if I am driving (without CC) then I can't control the speed with just the engine braking (almost non-existent in the 6th gear) and would be forced to tap the brakes.

We can continue the discussion here so the other thread doesn't continue off topic

Like you have read up, regular CC does not use brakes at all. Although it does feel like the vehicle is braking it has to be something with throttle control that is making it feel this way.

Like I mentioned in the earlier posts, ABS cannot intervene on it's own and comes into play only when the driver applies the brakes.

Another interesting example of ABS application is the stuck mode in the Tata Punch AMT. It requires a driver action to be activated and needs the brakes to be pressed to make it work, since ABS is not designed to brake on it's own.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

The yaw rate sensor detects the vehicle is on an incline

I have no trouble believing your statement that hill start assist shares the ESC module (which could explain why they're bundled together so often) but I don't understand how a yaw rate sensor would help detect inclination because to the best of my knowledge yaw rate means angular velocity about the vertical axis, so I would have thought that the sensor for hill start assist was different from that for ESC.

For example, the new Maruti Celerio and Wagon R get hill start assist but no ESC. But the South African Celerio gets ESC too so it's likely that there is an ESC module present but no yaw rate sensor.

[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by ron178

I have no trouble believing your statement that hill start assist shares the ESC module (which could explain why they're bundled together so often) but I don't understand how a yaw rate sensor would help detect inclination because to the best of my knowledge yaw rate means angular velocity about the vertical axis, so I would have thought that the sensor for hill start assist was different from that for ESC.

For example, the new Maruti Celerio and Wagon R get hill start assist but no ESC. But the South African Celerio gets ESC too so it's likely that there is an ESC module present but no yaw rate sensor.

Hill hold is not a separate module. It is value added function / additional feature of ESP / ESC. The yaw sensor will detect the plane on all 3 axis' - X, Y & Z and hence is the sensor used for Hill Assist as well. Nowadays most ESP / ESC systems have integrated yaw sensors that reference from the vehicle CG to where is it mounted in the engine bay.

In the Maruti case, the vehicles with ABS & Hill hold have the ESP hardware (you can physically see a much bigger unit) but only ABS & Hill hold have been calibrated.

This is a strategy I do not understand at all, as they are already paying for the hardware. The only thing that comes to mind is these cars probably miss out on a steering angle sensor and maybe a part of the development cost related to ESP adaptations for India, but this will be negligible.

Common Maruti - Just offer full ESP !

[GeneralJazz]

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

In the Maruti case, the vehicles with ABS & Hill hold have the ESP hardware (you can physically see a much bigger unit) but only ABS & Hill hold have been calibrated.

This is a strategy I do not understand at all, as they are already paying for the hardware. The only thing that comes to mind is these cars probably miss out on a steering angle sensor and maybe a part of the development cost related to ESP adaptations for India, but this will be negligible.

Common Maruti - Just offer full ESP !

Strictly speaking, Hill Hold is possible without ESP. For basic Hill Hold, ABS is sufficient. It will just hold the pressure for 1-2 sec. Certain bikes with ABS do support hill hold.

Most VAFs like ACC, AEB, Auto Hold requires a full ESP system, but not basic HH. And since ESP is much more complex compared to ABS, it doesnt make sense to provide HH-ESP without enabling ESP, especially since ESP is a much bigger selling point. Thats what makes me think that these cars only have ABS (+-EBD) and not ESP.

[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by GeneralJazz

Strictly speaking, Hill Hold is possible without ESP. For basic Hill Hold, ABS is sufficient. It will just hold the pressure for 1-2 sec. Certain bikes with ABS do support hill hold.
...

Originally Posted by audioholic

... My thought was that the ABS unit cant generate pressure, but once the driver has pressed the brake pedal, it should be able to maintain this pressure for sometime by shutting all the valves in the valve body...

ABS valves are designed to release pressure and not hold pressure. Sure they can hold for short durations, but if this is done on a regular basis (like in the case of hill hold), the valves will fail and this is why it cannot be done with ABS.

Just take a look at any of the Maruti AMT's with only ABS & Hill Hold and you will see that the hydraulic unit is actually an ESP, and you can trust Maruti to find the most economical solution.

[ruzbehxyz]

Please read about Electronic Stability Control and other driving aids on this thread :-

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-t...ml#post5268422 (Understanding 4x4 and Modern 4WD driving aids)