[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by electric_eel

Just curious How do these ventilation vents look like ? Are they (in general) visible from outside ?. I have been driving in Kerala for the last 7 years and during monsoon humidity is generally high here. Even when there is heavy rains I have rarely seen this level of condensation both in my old Maruti zen or in my Nexon EV. Granted they are both fitted with Halogen lamps and not leds but still it suggests something seriously wrong with the headlight assembly.

They are towards inside of the assembly (engine bay), kind of 2 way valve to let the hot air with moisture to release during heating cycle and cold air with moisture to enter during cold cycle, for heat dissipation and balancing the inside and outside pressure. Logically this cooling should not happen, as it allows the moisture to enter, but the low pressure created during the cooling would implode the assembly or crack it in the long run. Moreover the internal transparent plastic glass is coated with hydrophobic coating to prevent moisture formation on the glass, since it can become a safety hazard.

Halogens run hotter than LED’s hence the breather vent would be designed for that higher thermal effect. In high humid or cold climatic conditions such breather vents would have to work harder or more often.

Originally Posted by electric_eel

Sorry for being a bit dense here. Does that mean that these vents are not visible unless I open up the headlight assembly or can I see them by opening up the hood ? Also does these work just due to the pressure differential (resulting from temperature differential) or do they have dedicated "pumps" of some sort ?

Yes they will be visible from the back of the headlight assembly after opening the hood. The principle they work on is high temperature increases the pressure inside the assembly which activates the breather valve to release the pressure and dissipate the heat. No pumps, it just works on principle of fluid dynamics, and balancing of pressure (outside and inside).

[electric_eel]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

They are towards inside of the assembly (engine bay), kind of 2 way valve to let the hot air with moisture to release during heating cycle and cold air with moisture to enter during cold cycle, for heat dissipation and balancing the inside and outside pressure.

Sorry for being a bit dense here. Does that mean that these vents are not visible unless I open up the headlight assembly or can I see them by opening up the hood ? Also does these work just due to the pressure differential (resulting from temperature differential) or do they have dedicated "pumps" of some sort ?

[BhayanaV]

The amount of condensation visible in ppy.tbhp's car is huge and definitely normal. I have Seltos, 2023 Dec and never faced this issue, though we had excessive rains this monsoon recently.

[@ppy.tbhp]

Originally Posted by Axe77

Thanks for that extremely detailed outline. I’m curious if this is a problem in corresponding Hyundai sister models too. If not, surely they can move asap to the Hyundai approach to these lights as opposed to let this issue carry on.

Agree that Kia should cover the consequential replacements beyond the warranty period as well under a goodwill gesture if this is indeed a design flaw.

Yes, it is, the severity and pattern of condensation differs on different car models. I have visually inspected my cousin’s older version Creta and my friends new Hyundai Exter showing similar issues, aesthetically it looks very bad and you can't remove it, it’s recurring in them too, both suffer from this visible moisture condensation issues. Flawed design and aggressive cost cutting measures to reduce size, absence of mechanical ventilation like a heatsink with fan are leading to these issues. i am attaching images which were shared online by other owners of these vehicles facing high moisture condensation issues with their Car for your reference. from my experience i have learnt that the condensation severity is a function of time, the longer the vehicle is driven with lights on ,more severe condensation and fogging appears. Yes, it is, the severity and pattern of condensation differs on different car models. I have visually inspected my cousin’s older version Creta and my friends new Hyundai Exter showing similar issues, aesthetically it looks very bad and you can't remove it, it’s recurring issue in them too, both suffer from this visible moisture condensation issues. Flawed design and aggressive cost cutting measures to reduce size, absence of mechanical ventilation like a heatsink with fan are leading to these issues. I am attaching images which were shared online by other owners of these vehicles facing high moisture condensation issues with their Car for your reference. From my experience i have learnt that the condensation severity is a function of time, the longer the vehicle is driven with lights on, more severe condensation and fogging appears. This issue is not just a design flaw—it’s incredibly annoying and frustrating for owners. I experienced this firsthand while driving to Pune from Nagpur on the Samruddhi Mahamarg at night. I had to stop multiple times since I was continuously losing visibility on the road due to the severe condensation in my car’s front lights. This is a serious safety hazard, especially during nighttime driving, and there’s no permanent solution available till date. It’s unacceptable for such a critical defect to remain unresolved, putting drivers and others on the road at risk.

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Unfortunately that’s incorrect, you are actually defying the laws of thermodynamics. It’s a normal ambient air inside the assembly which will have moisture depending on the temperature. Higher the temperature higher the capacity to hold moisture. That’s why you use hair dryer (warm) to dry yourself, it sucks the moisture from your skin.

But if I would be a designer, I would put pure nitrogen or any inert gas (that’s why you have halogen) in the assembly because they are huge heat sinks and don’t expand or absorb moisture, but I’m sure automotive engineers would have thought about this and would have challenges to implement this, which I don’t know of.



It’s not if you know what you are suggesting.



Sealed to what, air or water ? For water, dust, particles ingress, yes they are sealed. But if you seal for air/moisture ingress/egress, you will explode/implode the assembly while heating/cooling cycles. Pls don’t mix water with moisture.



Yes true, that’s what engineers do.



I’m not denying that it would be a design flaw. I’m just giving the explanation behind the WHY’s. To me it looks like the breather vents aren’t designed properly or are not capable for the heat generated by all the components installed or crammed in a small space. That’s why in my earlier post I wrote about installation of a breather vent.

Anyway nothing more to add.

I’m sure it’s a design and manufacturing flaw. It seems like the breather vents alone just aren’t enough to handle the heat generated by all the components crammed into such a small space in newer designs. The vent holes in my cars light assemblies are similar as shown in the representation image, but they’re simply not enough to control the humidity and moisture levels inside the light assemblies of my car. What’s really needed is mechanical ventilation with fans to actively move moisture and humidity out of these assemblies. Unfortunately, this was likely removed as a cost-cutting measure, which has led to all these ongoing problems.

Originally Posted by electric_eel

Just curious How do these ventilation vents look like ? Are they (in general) visible from outside ?. I have been driving in Kerala for the last 7 years and during monsoon humidity is generally high here. Even when there is heavy rains I have rarely seen this level of condensation both in my old Maruti zen or in my Nexon EV. Granted they are both fitted with Halogen lamps and not leds but still it suggests something seriously wrong with the headlight assembly.

I completely agree with you. I owned a Hyundai I20 for ten years and drove it for over 1.2 lakh kilometers, in all kinds of weather and even cross-country. Despite having aftermarket LEDs fitted, I never faced any issues with the headlight assemblies of my I20. The car was reliable throughout, and I never had to worry about condensation or fogging reducing visibility and damaging light components prematurely and permanently. Now, looking at the new car with so many defects, I can’t help but regret selling the I20. The issues new owners facing are a clear result of failed quality control and assurance by KIN, which is incredibly frustrating. It’s disappointing to have a brand-new car with so many built-in problems, especially when the old one was so dependable. Aggressively cutting cost is causing all sorts of problems and disregarding customer satisfaction and safety which is unacceptable. Neither KIN dealership nor KIN has a permanent solution to this severe defect till date.

[blogslogger]

I too got my healight assembly replaced due to yellowing of DRL recently. However, condensation is not a big issue. Halogens and HIDs generated heat, which resulted in the evaporation of water vapour inside the headlight. Modern LEDs, although they run hot, have them venting into the housing, requiring the housing to be breathable. That is the reason LED headlights are cool to touch. This is a design feature.

The condensation in the examples stated is near the edges of the headlight hoursing and is not affecting the beam. I know they spoil the looks but it is not worth losing sleep over
The headlights being inadequate is a discussion for another thread.

[@ppy.tbhp]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

They are towards inside of the assembly (engine bay), kind of 2 way valve to let the hot air with moisture to release during heating cycle and cold air with moisture to enter during cold cycle, for heat dissipation and balancing the inside and outside pressure. Logically this cooling should not happen, as it allows the moisture to enter, but the low pressure created during the cooling would implode the assembly or crack it in the long run. Moreover the internal transparent plastic glass is coated with hydrophobic coating to prevent moisture formation on the glass, since it can become a safety hazard.

Halogens run hotter than LED’s hence the breather vent would be designed for that higher thermal effect. In high humid or cold climatic conditions such breather vents would have to work harder or more often.

Yes they will be visible from the back of the headlight assembly after opening the hood. The principle they work on is high temperature increases the pressure inside the assembly which activates the breather valve to release the pressure and dissipate the heat. No pumps, it just works on principle of fluid dynamics, and balancing of pressure (outside and inside).

It’s really frustrating when a seemingly simple solution ends up causing more problems. You’re spot on—these so-called preventive measures in the new lighting assemblies like hydrophobic coating to prevent moisture formation on the plastic light lenses are being done from inside, just aren’t cutting it permanently and consistently. The desiccant pads may clear up the lens temporarily when they are newly replaced, but they don’t solve the bigger issue of trapped moisture and humidity inside the headlight. The original design, with the breather vent system, was meant to allow pressure regulation and heat dissipation, but it seems that with these new changes, that balance has been lost.

What’s most concerning is that moisture is getting stuck inside, and it just can’t escape, even with the ventilation vents provided. This isn’t just a minor inconvenience—it’s a serious safety hazard, especially when the lights are fogging up or the internal components are getting damaged. It feels like the manufacturer is just applying a quick, low-cost fix instead of addressing the real cause of the problem. In the long run, it’s only going to get worse, and that’s definitely not something we should be tolerating, especially when it's impacting visibility and safety on the road.

Originally Posted by electric_eel

Sorry for being a bit dense here. Does that mean that these vents are not visible unless I open up the headlight assembly or can I see them by opening up the hood ? Also does these work just due to the pressure differential (resulting from temperature differential) or do they have dedicated "pumps" of some sort ?

The location of these breather vents is generally facing downwards and located at the bottom of these assemblies so that no excessive moisture or water can enter through them inside these assemblies. you have to take these assemblies out from the car to inspect them thoroughly or clean them if they are blocked by dust or debris over time.

Originally Posted by BhayanaV

The amount of condensation visible in ppy.tbhp's car is huge and definitely normal. I have Seltos, 2023 Dec and never faced this issue, though we had excessive rains this monsoon recently.

I have been provided replacement lights under warranty ,no issues were found in factory fitted light assemblies , the new replacement assemblies were only provided when I made KIN dealership compare my cars lights with unsold new vehicle of the same vehicle, The difference in light brightness, light color had turned to yellow from white was clearly visible. Only after this I was provided with new replacement front lights under warranty by KIN. The car was fitted with new replacement front lights and checked for visible condensation after washing and cleaning with pressurized water.no unacceptable condensation was observed at that time. Now in just two days of driving they have started showing same severe condensation defect again. This proves that the faulty design and manufacturing and doing away with quality control and quality assurance practices is causing this recurring issue again leaving me very disappointed with no permanent solution for now.

[navin_v8]

Earlier when I came across such condensation issues in Kia/Hyundai cars, I thought it must be my eyes or a one off two odd case. But when I started observing closely, I realized this is indeed a manufacturing defect. Case in point Kia Carens headlight fogging (I also see the DRL LED strip having condensation) as witnessed by me:



I don't buy the theory of LED head lamps/tail lamps developing condensation due to their inherent build. If that was the case then the LED tail lamp on my 10 years old RE Thunderbird would also have this condensation after pressure washing, rain water splatter, etc. I have seldom noticed condensation issue on Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, etc. which too have these full LED head/tail lamps. All car owners of Kia/Hyundai should organize themselves on social media and collectively put pressure on Hyundai/Kia India. Unfortunately our country is devoid of the power of collective pressure despite have huge numbers.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

I have seldom noticed condensation issue on Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, etc. which too have these full LED head/tail lamps.

Well well this is what the owner manual of BMW says, the problem is we cannot see the mist while driving (we just drive with lights on) which vents out the moisture due to the heat and can see when the assembly is back in cold condition.

But clearly the picture you have shared shows water droplet formation inside, so that would be a point of concern. I would have done this as a DIY myself with a bolt-on breather vent, but that’s me !!

I would like to see some pictures of the headlight assembly after a drive with headlights on and while still in hot conditions.

[anshu1101]

Originally Posted by Axe77

Thanks for that extremely detailed outline. I’m curious if this is a problem in corresponding Hyundai sister models too. If not, surely they can move asap to the Hyundai approach to these lights as opposed to let this issue carry on.

This issue is something that is not exclusive to Kia. This is common across manufacturers with LED set-ups, making this sort of a non-issue. I have observed this happening in both my cars - Hyundai Tucson and Skoda Kushaq - both of which come with LED headlamps. My sister-in-law's Creta has this issue as well.

Like other forum members have already pointed out this is due to condensation caused by higher a temperature inside the headlight and lower temperature outside. Since LED headlamps are cooler than halogens, they take longer to dissipate the condensation that is built up.

I was alarmed too when I saw this happening in the Tucson the very next day after purchase after I encountered rains during a drive. Reached out to the dealership. They said it is common with LEDs headlamps and asked me to contact them if the condensation did not go away in a day or two. And as they said, the next day was bright and sunny and the condensation had gone away by the afternoon. Have observed this happening sometimes when I wash the car as well - both the Tucson and the Kushaq. I've stopped bothering about it now.

A few other people I know from Team-BHP who own Tucsons have also faced this.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Well well this is what the owner manual of BMW says,

Well well well... I am wondering if the same is mentioned in Hyundai/Kia owner manual as well.

Besides, the second paragraph (see highlighted area) in the screenshot (supposedly BMW Owner Manual) you shared is a bit ambiguous. What caught my attention is, "have the headlights checked." If this is how full LED lamps are manufactured and supposed to behave, then the onus is on the owner to drive it to the service center and have them checked every time this occurs. It would be interesting to know if this even covered under standard warranty?


Another question I had was, whenever I wash my car (having normal halogen lights) in the morning there is no condensation whatsoever may it be rain, summer or winter. Also note that during the day most don't switch on their headlamps (halogen equipped cars) where the halogen light heat will clear the condensation.

[bobbyblr]

I think Kia is using the desiccant made by an Korean company called DesiKhan in their lamp fixtures.




I think using a desiccant in automotive lamps is a bad idea and also who wants to replace these desiccants every year.

When I was hunting for a fog lamp fixture for my 2009 Alto, I bought a few fog lamps of Alto K10 (2010), WagonR and Indica Vista. All these three had a rubber vent with some foam inside it. Alto K10 and WagonR fog lamps were made by Lumax & Indica Vista fog lamps were made by Minda. Lumax build quality was good whereas Minda build quality was so bad that one side of the fog lamp had leveling plastic broken when I opened the pack.




So instead of using a desiccant, I would recommend automotive lamp manufacturers to use Gore-Vents as they will reply any dust and water from the outside and prevent any condensation or moisture in the inside.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Another question I had was, whenever I wash my car (having normal halogen lights) in the morning there is no condensation whatsoever may it be rain, summer or winter. Also note that during the day most don't switch on their headlamps (halogen equipped cars) where the halogen light heat will clear the condensation.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear in my previous post. Headlight assembly is sealed for water ingress, a good conditioned or a relatively new assembly won’t let the water to ingress during rains or washing. Don’t mix water with moisture, which depends on the dew point of the air.

The only way moisture enters inside is through the breather vents (assuming headlight assembly is in perfect condition) while cooling happens after the drive with headlights on and depends on the relative humidity and temperature of the area.

For old headlights or with different plastics the moisture can penetrate due to desorption from the plastic (opp of absorption) or permeation due to damaged silicone or butyl seals present at different locations.

[BhayanaV]

Originally Posted by @ppy.tbhp

I have been provided replacement lights under warranty ,no issues were found in factory fitted light assemblies , the new replacement assemblies were only provided when I made KIN dealership compare my cars lights with unsold new vehicle of the same vehicle, The difference in light brightness, light color had turned to yellow from white was clearly visible. Only after this I was provided with new replacement front lights under warranty by KIN. The car was fitted with new replacement front lights and checked for visible condensation after washing and cleaning with pressurized water.no unacceptable condensation was observed at that time. Now in just two days of driving they have started showing same severe condensation defect again. This proves that the faulty design and manufacturing and doing away with quality control and quality assurance practices is causing this recurring issue again leaving me very disappointed with no permanent solution for now.

Can we request to convert this to a new thread. This might need more attention.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Sorry if I wasn’t clear in my previous post. Headlight assembly is sealed for water ingress, a good conditioned or a relatively new assembly won’t let the water to ingress during rains or washing. Don’t mix water with moisture, which depends on the dew point of the air.

The only way moisture enters inside is through the breather vents (assuming headlight assembly is in perfect condition) while cooling happens after the drive with headlights on and depends on the relative humidity and temperature of the area.

For old headlights or with different plastics the moisture can penetrate due to desorption from the plastic (opp of absorption) or permeation due to damaged silicone or butyl seals present at different locations.

Mate I stay in Bombay and that too just 1 KM away from Juhu Beach. The humidity here is perpetually high, except for maybe winter. My car is almost 21 years old and the headlight/tail light assembly has not had any problem with condensation whatsoever. Of course mine are normal halogen lights.

P.S. My car is Mitsubishi Lancer (Limited Edition) with OEM Stanley Japan Headlight/Taillight assembly.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Mate I stay in Bombay and that too just 1 KM away from Juhu Beach. The humidity here is perpetually high, except for maybe winter. My car is almost 21 years old and the headlight/tail light assembly has not had any problem with condensation whatsoever. Of course mine are normal halogen lights.

P.S. My car is Mitsubishi Lancer (Limited Edition) with OEM Stanley Japan Headlight/Taillight assembly.

Since you stay at Mumbai which has high relative humidity almost through out the year, put an ambient water in steel glass and put chilled water in steel glass, can you tell me where condensation happens ? I guess you might have got your answer, what is needed for the moisture build up to happen, yes that’s low temperature, or sufficient temperature differential which Mumbai doesn’t get ever. Or have you seen condensation buildup on the windshield during rainy days when AC vents throw the cold air towards the windshield, condensation happens outside, right ? This is the same thermodynamic principle happening away from our naked eyes, hence generally we are ignorant of it happening on the headlight assembly.

Or it might happen so less that it won’t be generally visible to naked eye and one might not notice it in day to day life. I would have explained it with psychrometric chart but it would confuse a lot more.

BTW science has nothing to with the age and make of the car. And lancer is indeed a lovely ride