[RahulNagaraj]

Thanks to the Team-BHP fan (he prefers to remain anonymous) who sent this in. Heartfelt gratitude for sharing it with other enthusiasts via this Team-BHP share page!

Dear Members,

I have recently come across cases where there is no obvious way to avoid automated fines. One with my cousin in Gurgaon, and the current case mentioned below with my wife in Delhi. I wonder if these are simply money-collection schemes by the respective governments.

It goes like this, you are in the middle of traffic trying to cross a red light. Just when you have crossed the Lakshman Rekha (the stop line), the traffic in front of you slows and the light turns amber.

Now you have two possibilities:

1. Follow through and cross the intersection. This runs the risk that you will be fined by a waiting cop on the other side. Plus, this is usually the "unethical" option because you could easily block the incoming traffic for a significant duration of their own green light time.
   
2. The other option is to stop as soon as you find outcrossing is not a good idea. You can try reversing a few metres but usually, cars have queued up behind you already and this is not possible. So, you just wait where you stopped.

My wife chose the second option, and guess what, she gets a Rs 5000 fine for "crossing a red light"! (see attached image). What is worse, the physical post comes after 10 days and the case has already been forwarded to a virtual court, though no date is visible in the portal.

Would love to hear Team-BHP members' thoughts on this and what our next steps should be.

[mygodbole]

OK, I will stick my neck out.

As far as I know, traffic rules dictate that (a) look before you enter an intersection; and (b) enter only if you have a path ahead that will allow you to clear the intersection.

Traffic cameras 'assume/presume' you are aware of the above; thus the violation.

The only solution I know of is to stop behind the stop line, ignore all the honkers behind and cross only when the way to the other side is all-clear.

The all-clear depends on many factors, including and not limited to, impatient riders/drivers wanting to cross since their signal is green.

Difference, as mentioned in a Hindi film, between well-trained and educated.

Drive safe.

[condor]

While there is no mention of the city/location where this happened:

This car has crossed the pedestrian crossing, and is a violation, even if the category of violation may not be correct.

The fine amount does look high.

About 2 years back, on Kanakapura Road in Bangalore, I wanted to turn right but since there were cars ahead of me waiting to turn right, I stopped. What happened was - I am right on the lines marking the crossing. The lights changed, I had to wait there - along with couple of other cars to my left. Result ? A fine of 1000/-.

What makes things crazy there: The pedestrian crossing lines end right at the pillar - not going through to the other side of the road. Pretty much like the silver car there, but 3 feet further. I did have a thought to go straight, since the straight was a green. Instead to chose to wait and ended up with a fine.




There are grey areas and situations like what happened to me.

[binand]

you are in the middle of traffic trying to cross a red light. Just when you have crossed the Lakshman Rekha (the stop line), the traffic in front of you slows and the light turns amber.

Now you have two possibilities:

1. Follow through and cross the intersection.
2. Stop as soon as you find outcrossing is not a good idea.

The purpose of the amber interval is to exactly cater to this situation - give enough time to allow vehicles who entered the intersection just before the aspect went off from green, to safely exit.

The rule is that you must not cross the stop line when the signal is amber, but if you have already crossed it you can certainly drive on to exit the intersection.

Signals are configured in such a way that no other direction (that cross your path) will get green when it is amber for you.

Your option 1 was the right thing to do. You got rightfully fined for following option 2. Whether the fine amount is disproportionate - I think yes, but that is a different discussion.

Edit: Looked up the fines - https://www.godigit.com/traffic-rule...fines-in-delhi. It says:

Dangerous Driving/Riding and Jumping Red Light: ₹1,000- ₹5,000 and/or 6-months to 1 year in prison, licence seizure

Since you've been fined the max amount, I suspect this is not your first infraction. In which case - I think totally justified.

[PaddleShifter]

Originally Posted by binand

Signals are configured in such a way that no other direction (that crosses your path) will get green when it is amber for you.

Legally, you are 100% correct but the duration of amber light is not as per what you mention.

During moderate to heavy traffic in Delhi-NCR and Chandigarh, I have been in situations where the amber light stayed for very short duration compared to the crawling cars and we failed to clear the intersection.

The manimajra chowk in Chandigarh is a perfect example. Even if one crosses at 1-2 second in Green light, there is no Guarantee that the intersection will be navigated before the light turns red. I have on occasions blocked the oncoming traffic even though I entered the intersection while it was still green.

Same is common in Dehradun also. I have entered intersections at green and still blocked the oncoming traffic.

This does need to be addressed. A potential reason is jaywalkers at large intersections not waiting for their turn.

[Hayek]

Originally Posted by PaddleShifter

Legally, you are 100% correct but the duration of amber light is not as per what you mention. I have on occasions blocked the oncoming traffic even though I entered the intersection while it was still green.

Agree Jaywalkers are a problem. But at least in Bombay, I have found cops reasonable where Jaywalkers cause a problem. However, the law is very clear that even if a signal is green, you can’t enter an intersection without being able to exit it while the signal is still green. So if vehicles are already blocking an intersection and you enter it, you will get fined.

[binand]

Originally Posted by PaddleShifter

During moderate to heavy traffic in Delhi-NCR and Chandigarh, I have been in situations where the amber light stayed for very short duration compared to the crawling cars and we failed to clear the intersection.

There is one more rule - you are not supposed to enter an intersection, even if it is green for you - if in your judgment you will not be able to exit it before it turns green for any direction that crosses yours. If the traffic is crawling as you mentioned then it might not have been possible for you to exit within given time and you should stop from entering the intersection.

(These are not codified rules, btw).

Having said that - I think the beat policemen are allowed to override signal configurations, and assuming that they hardly have any training in traffic management - this practice leads to more jams than it prevents. At least, that's my opinion of Bangalore's situation.

[deathwalkr]

My wishes:

1) All signals have timers.
2) All signals have standard gap times between the various light changes.
3) Everyone stops at the stop line.
4) Everyone proceeds only when their signal turns green (Nowadays people watch the other side signal and immediately after it turns red they start racing away)

The song "King of wishful thinking" by Go West comes to mind

Oh well.

[PaddleShifter]

Originally Posted by Hayek

However, the law is very clear that even if a signal is green, you can’t enter an intersection without being able to exit it while the signal is still green..

Originally Posted by binand

you are not supposed to enter an intersection, even if it is green for you - if in your judgment you will not be able to exit it before it turns green for any direction that crosses yours. If the traffic is crawling as you mentioned then it might not have been possible for you to exit within given time and you should stop from entering the intersection.

If I can judge that the traffic is slow enough to cause problems of jam, I never enter the intersection. But, given an option between 1 & 2 in the opening post, I’d choose to proceed as stopping beyond the stop light will get an e-challan from the camera photo that disregards the driver’s sceanrio completely whereas moving ahead in the green signal will most likely lead to interaction with a cop where one has a small chance of being spared after reviewing the dashcam footage.

I am also talking about situations where traffic was moving fine but slowed at the last second because some jaywalker was smart enough to figure out that the light is turning yellow soon and restlessly decides to cross the road causing a jam. Sometimes, similar behaviour is shown by small e-vehicles as well. Or when a car driver gets confused at an intersection whether to turn left/ right or go straight, making others lose those vital 3 seconds of amber light duration.

[aadi2700]

How is one supposed to deal with signals wherein no timer is given, as by the time you are bang on the stop line it’s too late to pause and the intersection may be clogged? (Have faced this conundrum a few times.

[svsantosh]

Interpretation of Indian traffic laws and the resulting fines are such that even Ugo lord cannot give an verdict. It is way too fluid and upto the individual to fight it out in the court of law or else just own up and pay it.

[subie_socal]

Originally Posted by deathwalkr

My wishes:

1) All signals have timers.
2) All signals have standard gap times between the various light changes.
3) Everyone stops at the stop line.
4) Everyone proceeds only when their signal turns green (Nowadays people watch the other side signal and immediately after it turns red they start racing away)

The song "King of wishful thinking" by Go West comes to mind

Oh well.

Adding more:

5) Buses stopping at their designated stops, in the bay and not on the road.
6) (For us Trivians) Fire the person who designed the exit path at Medical College bus terminus (people involved were smoking high quality stuff ).
7) People adhering to proper speeds , 70 shouldnt be on city roads and 40 shouldn't be on highways, in the extreme right lane )

[Kanu_87]

I have a question, why do we have signals (stop lights) at the far as well as the near (both) side of the intersection??

[sarathlal]

Originally Posted by PaddleShifter

Legally, you are 100% correct but the duration of amber light is not as per what you mention.

During moderate to heavy traffic in Delhi-NCR and Chandigarh, I have been in situations where the amber light stayed for very short duration compared to the crawling cars and we failed to clear the intersection.

Ideally duration of the amber light will be configured according to the designated speed of the road also. Maybe here they are considering average speed of the road in play, based on traffic timings.

Typically this works in conjunction of static or dynamic traffic density measurement.
For static cases, the signal duration will be determined based on day of the week and time of the day. For eg, a certain direction will get more of Green on certain week day timings since that direction has more traffic flow.
Dynamic cases work with help of signals. Once a side of the road reaches so much length of traffic, that side of the road will be given priority.

There is also a third type. Irrespective of any consideration of traffic, signals operate at specified time intervals.

Originally Posted by deathwalkr

My wishes:
1) All signals have timers.

This would have been ideal. In our city, there were signals which had timers (Few still have them) and it was very convenient.

[SS-Traveller]

Every intersection controlled by traffic lights is actually deemed to be a 'yellow box junction', and violation of the same will result in fines. Once drivers understand the concept of such box junctions, they would be less likely to get penalized. OTOH, you can see at the link above that British drivers too are cribbing about the unfairness of fines related to box junction violations.