[lazy]

Eye opening thread this !!

Facts -
- Mahindra sells ScorpioN in Australia,
- ANCAP rates vehicles safety that are sold in Australia,
- ANCAP has made its testing criteria public and they're accepted in their market (AU).

Based on above, the path forward is very simple/clear for Mahindra -
- Make the damn car safe !!
- Treat Indian customers with some respect and give us the safe car we deserve - for 2 decades we have given you so much Scorpio business to support you to expand - now give us safe cars !!

But this thread's posts are really amazing - a bit concerning perhaps.

Maybe we can -
- learn to take constructive criticism, especially where its due,
- acknowledge that ScorpioN is indeed an unsafe car,
- not use some convoluted logic to dismiss/discredit ANCAP,
- give creative justifications for ScorpioN's safety,
- realize that just coz I bought a ScorpioN due to budget limitations or its looks doesn't make it a safe car !!

cheers
lazy

[Carma2017]

Originally Posted by ron178

Do you have evidence supporting this? Already in 2022 they spent their full 1-million-Euro FIA grant testing and retesting Suzukis and Suzukis only.

It seems like for their last round they have done other never-seen-before models like the Mahindra Bolero Neo and as for retests a lot of evidence points to the updated Carens being tested at Kia’s expense. But retesting more Suzukis would be almost comical at this point. Do your sources point to any particular models?

My sources tell me Ciaz and Ertiga have been picked up for sure. Whether they are the export versions or Toyota versions, I have no idea.

[enj0y_ride]

Originally Posted by Takumi-san

ANCAP did this specifically as a media stunt. The Scorpio was setup to fail at zero stars even before the test. I am calling it as waste of taxpayers money and have already written to my local MP (paying tax down under for the past 15 years). Lets not be so quick to pooh-pooh our Indian manufacturers who are doing an extremely good job. Fantastic read for anyone who truly wants to understand why -
https://www.carexpert.com.au/opinion...omes-to-safety

I feel, the approach taken by ANCAP is better ( leaving the media stunt aside ), where they consider the impact to other vehicle. Its one way to normalise the score and bring in some equity considering the uneven size/ mass of different categories of vehicle plying on the road.

Otherwise, just consider all the scenarios where a smaller ( 5 star rated ) vehicle hitting a vehicle with higher mass ( probably low rated ). Apparently, the damage will be more to the smaller ones. Probably, the approach taken by ANCAP tries to bridge this issue to some extend where they force manufacturers to consider impact to other cars.

Wondering what will be the ANCAP rating for apocalypse rated Tesla Cybertruck considering anything it hits will get smashed.

[Bhodrolok]

Originally Posted by careind

Thanks for this article which was eye opening in many ways. That section about ANCAP penalizing full 8 points ( or 20%) because the Scorpio damaged the 1400 kg moving barrier is actually the selling point, at least in countries like India.

Are you saying what I am thinking you are saying? Are Indian drivers in bug burly SUVs allowed to plough through pedestrians and smaller vehicles?

[ron178]

One thing to note about the MPDB test is that while it is demanding on larger vehicles for compatibility, unlike the offset deformable barrier test we are used to it does discriminate based on size for occupant protection too.

The offset deformable barrier test is sid to approximately mimic the pulse of a crash between a vehicle and another of the same mass, both travelling at around 50km/h.

The MPDB test mimics a crash between a vehicle and a fixed-mass small car of 1400kg. So it is more demanding structurally on small cars and less on big cars. For example even cars that have done well in ODB have done badly in MPDB and vice versa.

Eg. the Latin American Kwid did pretty well against a deformable barrier but even the heavier Dacia Spring when faced with the 1400kg MPDB struggled with managing intrusion. Similarly the Toyota Yaris which has done very well in JNCAP's ODB test struggled in its Euro NCAP MPDB test (but still managed five stars).

Conversely there are cars like the Jeep Grand Cherokee and even the Scorpio's biggest rival in Australia (GWM Tank 300) that have scored full points for occupant protection in the MPDB test. That is something very rare in ODB with only 2 cars in history managing it (Chevrolet Cruze and Tesla Model 3).

Another major difference is that in the front seat there is a 50th percentile THOR dummy unlike the Hybrid IIIs we see in GNCAP. That also measures risk of serious abdominal injury and since 2023 if I am not mistaken Euro NCAP/ANCAP are even measuring (but not reporting) risk of brain trauma (earlier criterion was only skull fracture). So this is a significantly more advanced test.

I find it a little ridiculous that people are willy-nilly calling the Scorpio's GNCAP result fake after looking at ANCAP. It is always good practice when looking at the stars to find out what the stars mean and accept what it means, whether you like it or not. What I see is that the sudden craze for safety ratings is largely contributed to by the fact that they have been oversold by media and social media influencers, who do not want to show their limitations because it does not fit into this convenient, neat little narrative that some manufacturers are responsible and some are not (that gets them clicks), and that there is nothing in between.

GNCAP themselves have something to do with it because lately they have been more concerned with defending their actions and getting attention than actually helping consumers understand their tests, because they can then harp at their WHO/whatever conferences about how it is "proof safety sells" without necessarily understanding - or maybe even ignoring - how consumers are seeing their ratings at the ground level. The result is that car buyers have much higher expectations from consumer tests than they can meet and unlike a responsible consumer testing organisation GNCAP either does not know or does not care (I will give them the benefit of doubt because they are strapped for resources and time).

This has divided the majority into three camps: one who has been lied to about the ratings and hence actually believes them to be very accurate reflections of the real world, one who simply does not want to accept the limitations of the ratings because for them the ratings are more virtue signalling and saying anything about them hurts their ego which is somehow tied to their choice of car, and a third camp that knows the truth and decides the ratings must be a scam. All of this gets fixed if we just set our expectations straight and learn to accept a consumer test for what it is, limitations and all.

There are very few today who are interested in safety ratings today even after finding out how narrow a picture they paint. That is quite concerning because it shows that people actually expect that a lab test can even be that comprehensive.

Originally Posted by Carma2017

My sources tell me Ciaz and Ertiga have been picked up for sure. Whether they are the export versions or Toyota versions, I have no idea.

The Ciaz makes sense for Africa because it is a very popular car for Uber there where GNCAP are known to be focussing on fleet cars and pickup trucks. That is also why they tested the export version of Nissan Almera (Sunny) in 2021. Still, too many Suzukis, I feel.

[TorqueIndia]

Originally Posted by kiku007

[*]Mahindra needs to get its act together with global launches. Reputation is everything. Why rush the Scorpio launch in Australia without AEB and end up tarnishing its brand image? Why rush the launch of the Thar in the USA and get sued?[*]I think the ANCAP wanted to teach Mahindra and others a lesson by making this ANCAP Zero Star a PR exercise to dissuade them from trying the trick Mahindra did to skip AEB. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Looks like a better score was not possible even with AEB, the zero scored MG 5 had AEB standard. But ANCAP wants a sophisticated one.

ANCAP with its new criteria just tested only 2 cars the SCORPIO and the MG 5, other ratings listed were transferred from EURONCAP tests since both are aligned now.

Even if we test a AU spec FORTUNER now, I don't think it will score a 5 star like that of its 2019 tests. Indian spec will be worse without ADAS even though its 50% expensive than the AU spec one.

If ANCAP continues their in-house testings (not EuroNCAP transfers) then we can trust their good will, but if they are concluding everything here without testing the new LC 70, Jimny XL, Mitsubishi TRITON etc then the scene will look ugly.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

the new LC 70

Toyota have made sure ANCAP will not test the LC70 (again) and also found a workaround for ADR 85, the new side pole impact regulation that has been stymying many cars. They simply increased the weight of the LC70 to the point that it is classified as a goods vehicle which brings it out of scope of many regulations as well as consumer tests like ANCAP.

[shibujp]

Life was simpler and clearer with Euro NCAP. Now with the proliferation of NCAPs everywhere it seems what has been achieved is primarily a muddiying of the definition of safety. People need to also keep in mind that these are all heavily lobbied industries with a lot of non automobile related conditions factoring into decisions by law makers.

Now what has emerged is a slinging match. When GNCAP is in favor all is good. When another NCAP throws shade on GNCAP then the fun starts.

Drive on,
Shibu

[Sidban85]

I have seen that Mahindra has been inviting Australian reviewers at their off road proving ground, so they seem to be serious about the Australian market. So this ANCAP rating hopefully will make them improve the car.

If only there was an Australian investigation into their airbags as well!

The Australian reviewers also seem to be mentioning the ground clearance as 227mm vs 180mm that was mentioned in India.


I hope they add ADAS as a differentiator vs the 5 door Thar.

[PreludeSH]

Can Mahindra add some cheat function which will slow down when it sees a 1400 Kg test dummy ?

I think bigger vehicles should be tested for crashes with smaller cars, pedestrians etc. People driving a 5 star small car would be so That is the reason people are gravitating towards bigger cars which also provide more space, go on bad roads etc features. Hope ANCAP would give some negative 3 stars to the cyber truck.

[naadopaasaka]

For the members conversant with Tamizh, the wonderful channel MotoWagon recently had some interesting insights into GNCAP's testing choices and protocols. You can find that here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL-k...Z29uIG5jYXA%3D

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Saying all of the above, it will definitely be better if Mahindra and Tata and Suzuki and Toyota and others engineer their vehicles ground up to meet all International Safety Norms.

That's easier to say but difficult to do for companies like Mahindra and Tata isn't it? If a product isn't going to be sold in Europe then what is the incentive for the manufacturer to invest the extra millions to meet EU regulations?

They can invest more if they are planning to sell in more developed/mature markets.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Let us also keep in mind that Hyundai and Kia and Skoda and VW and all are ‘engineering vehicles to a ‘price’ for the India markets’ and these vehicles most probably, will not pass the same stringent Euro NCAP and ANCAP standards.

It certainly is sad that global carmakers water down their cars to remain price competitive in India. Sure, we can blame them. However, we also have people recommending Tata or Mahindra products to people who have the budget for a BMW, Merc or Audi. We know which of these brands are built to a global standard.

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Looks like a better score was not possible even with AEB, the zero scored MG 5 had AEB standard. But ANCAP wants a sophisticated one.

A better score was possible if Mahindra equipped the Scorpio with whatever the criteria outlined as required. It's not a secret. The syllabus was same for all the students and there were no out of syllabus questions in the exam. It wasn't the examiner's fault the student failed.

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

If ANCAP continues their in-house testings (not EuroNCAP transfers) then we can trust their good will, but if they are concluding everything here without testing the new LC 70, Jimny XL, Mitsubishi TRITON etc then the scene will look ugly.

It is the individual's right to decide what to trust or not. ANCAP rating isn't mandatory. There are reasons why they don't test a Porsche 911 or a LC70. You can read about it here to know more. The list of unrated (ANCAP) cars include MG3, Mini, Mercedes E Class, BMW X6, Toyota Prado and every single Porsche.

[Mystic]

This reminds me of my days with Honda R&D facility and AM General (They literally build Humvees to breathe when completely immersed in water) in USA where my job is to implement software for their testing schedule. These companies take testing very seriously. There are more than couple of hundred tests that need to be done before the D Day when they do the final crash test. The amount of money spent in hand built cars like Civic, Accord is a couple of millions for each car. The people who build the cars with their hands literally cry on the crash test day as if they have lost their babies. I was surprised to see the all white uniform for thousands of employees as if they are doing surgeries.

For a car that is sold in every country on this planet like Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla, they need to consider all testing protocols of the various countries standards and this requires a lot of money and justification to the price conscious customers. They have to sell the same Civic all over the world and not a civic with thin gauge of metal for Indian customers.

Coming back to Indian and Chinese automobile companies which largely do some short cuts in basic R&D and try to copy the American, Japanese and German car companies.Copyright is thrown out of the window. This was a perception I personally had 40 years back. Now Indian and Chinese automakers have come a long way and are in a position to share their technology with the west now.

[harikrishnansp]

Originally Posted by jalex77

I see a lot of folks feeling like pedestrian and other road users' safety doesn't matter and it's their's and their family's safety that's more important and what matters.

Well, I'd like to let remind them that like everyone else's, their kids too often need to cross the road when going to and back from school, that we all are pedestrians at some point of time, and that we are vulnerable road users at those times. And personally, I value the life of someone else's child or family as I value mine.

Then, many of us do ride cycles and two wheelers atleast occasionally don't we? Which again makes us vulnerable road users at that point of time too.

One's not always inside an iron cage and will definitely have to get out of it while travelling as well. Like for instance to get to the final destination point from the parking lot or parked area.

We all are vulnerable road users in all the above mentioned circumstances and at the mercy of the vehicle coming recklessly or negligently towards us or our family. That is why the vulnerable road users test scores matters and is given due weightage in these tests.

Well, this mentality is the very same reason why there is no discipline and also a shortage of proper drivers on our roads.

"I am safe inside the car, the pedestrian, the kid or the biker on the road can just die"

[Nithesh_M]

Honestly surprised that people are defending a car manufacturer for failing the test here. A few years ago Gncap tested or rather re-tested our cars and gave them 0 stars for not having passenger airbags or side curtain airbags as standard if I remember. And people were mocking the poor scorers. Now that the shoe is on the other foot people want to believe its a conspiracy?

I've always maintained these Ncaps are a sham especially since they stopped buying base model cars for test from dealership randomly and joined hands with manufacturers to be their advertisement partner. Cars in top variants being tested before public can buy and then using the video and results as a launch promotion material. How does one believe its not rigged?