[Kickdown]

Originally Posted by saikishor

Is safety some kind of rocket science that the idiots at Maruti are unable to figure out?

No its not. Its economics. As long as people ignore the safety aspect and keep demanding fancy features, why would any manufacture go out of their way to prioritize safety?

Kudos to the VAG group for delivering on the safety front. But the sales charts reflect what the consumer wants in India. Buyers prefer a 360 degree camera or panoramic sunroof or power adjusting seats over safety. All this is good but not as an alternative to a safer car. Not in my books atleast.

And its not about awareness anymore. Most prospective buyers do good amount of research now. Case in point - A well educated friend of mine booked a Creta recently and when I inquired why he did not opt for any one of the safer VAG twins, he said "arre unme panoramic sunroof nahi ata" . That kinda of sums it up for me.

As consumers if we dont set our priorities right, I fear for a day when we wont see any 5* rated cars in India. All that we would be driving will be ChatGPT enabled tins with super fancy feature and 0 safety .

[svsantosh]

All you reader know the dummies are pretty expensive and can cost upto a $1MN right, they mimic a human very closely at least in an accident.

Probably Maruti may get credit for actually killing a dummy in a crash test soon.




pic from internet - credit to respective owners

PS
Nothing is going to stop their dream run in India in the near future though.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by Keeleri_Achu

Why was WagonR's star rating capped to one star? I cannot find any critical region in the pictogram.

Even more, WagonR gets ESP as standard according to Maruti's brochure. Why is it being marked as not available? Shouldn't the score be enough for 3 stars if there is ESP and lack of any critical regions?

Attachment 2437263

This is very interesting and certainly something I missed. I did not know the Wagon R had ESC. At the time of launch of the facelift it had only hill hold and even a few weeks ago IIRC it did not have ESC (I was checking all Marutis because they were suddenly fitting ESC to many models).

In this case it seems to be another case of an "unfair" one star rating like the Swift's. Initial rating of two stars, reduced by one star because of more than 5.6pts difference in front and side scores.

Why "unfair"?
#1.1 the acknowledgement issue
TL;DR because effectively the low score has a lot to do with Maruti not paying for additional tests or simply not acknowledging GNCAP, rather than something fundamentally wrong with the Wagon R.

Let me explain: the Wagon R actually has a score that corresponds to three stars (19.69) - but it doesn't qualify for three, not because it fails pedestrian or ESC testing, but simply because Maruti didn't sponsor a test. And I maintain that a private organisation like Global NCAP has no business asking a manufacturer to sponsor anything to get more stars, indirectly or not. If they selected the car themselves they should complete all testing that can affect the star rating without expecting the manufacturer to pay for it. That's how it works in other NCAPs.

#2.1 an irrelevant technicality

This is a subjective point, and about how that two star rating became one star. The 1-star reduction for great difference in front and side scores is a very old Euro NCAP penalty originally designed to prevent very badly performing high-riding cars like pickups from scoring well by unfairly racking up points in the side MDB impact by the sole virtue of their high seating position. In small cars, however, good side impact is achieved by designing for it, not by unfair advantage. Euro NCAP and ANCAP themselves have long stopped this penalty, instead opting for limits on each test in addition to the total score(eg. in 2016 ANCAP, 5 stars needed a certain total score as well as at least 12.5/16 each in each test).

#2.2 ambiguous information on how said penalty is applied

IMO, applying the one star reduction AFTER capping the rating for "lack of" ESC is also ridiculous. How I think it should have worked is: if there is a big difference in scores, reduce the maximum rating that a certain score allows (not the final star rating). Then apply all capping for ESC, pedestrian, belt reminders, ABS (Africa), pole test etc.

In case I wasn't clear, let's consider a hypothetical Wagon R or Swift that actually has no ESC.

Here's how I think it should be rated:
19.xx points => 3 stars
Too much difference in front and side => -1 star => 2 stars
Any other requirements for 2 stars? No
Final rating: 2 stars

And here's what GNCAP have done:
19.xx points = 3 stars
Any other requirements for 3 stars? Yes: ESC, pedestrian
Requirements met? No*: capped at 2 stars
Too much difference in front and side => -1 star => 1 star
Final rating: 1 star

Originally Posted by vsrivatsa

Wow! An Alto with 4 stars with little more effort from Maruti would be a great achievement.

Would also need curtain airbags and have to pass a side pole test, though.

[fais123]

And here comes what is totally unexpected, on Car Blog India:

"New Maruti Fronx Gets 6-Star Safety Rating, Safest Car Globally" - Maruti Suzuki Fronx has received an unprecedented 6-star safety rating at the latest GNCAP.

https://www.carblogindia.com/new-mar...ng-safest-car/

Had to read till the end to find this:

"This latest information was released by GNCAP on their official website on the notorious occasion of April 1. We hope you can join the dots with this historic day to realize that you have been tricked on April Fool’s Day. We urge you to also pass on this practical joke to your near and dear ones. And no, Maruti Fronx has NOT undergone any crash test yet but we definitely hope for top-notch safety rating for the upcoming crossover."

[sunilg33]

Maruti needs to update their earlier crumple zone image to this.

[d3mon]

Originally Posted by ron178

T
Let me explain: the Wagon R actually has a score that corresponds to three stars (19.69) - but it doesn't qualify for three, not because it fails pedestrian or ESC testing, but simply because Maruti didn't sponsor a test.

As always, thank you for your detailed analysis!

About the pedestrian & ESC tests - if you were Maruti, would you sponsor a test if you knew you would flunk? In other words, if Maruti had sponsored the test, do you think the WagonR would have passed in both of these tests?

[Karthik.guru]

Originally Posted by ron178

...because effectively the low score has a lot to do with Maruti not paying for additional tests...but it doesn't qualify for three, not because it fails pedestrian or ESC testing, but simply because Maruti didn't sponsor a test.

Do you have any sources or ways to verify this information? Cause if true, it punches a big gaping hole in GNCAP ratings!

I also checked MS's website, and indeed the Wagon R does have Electronic Stability Program (ESP) as standard, so I am quite puzzled as to why GNCAP's fact sheet says that its not
Is there a technical difference between ESC and ESP? I'm no expert but I would imagine that for all practical purposes they're the same thing.
Could it be that ESP was made standard after cars were sent to/procured by GNCAP? Say a couple of months ago cause I imagine testing takes some time. And MS introduced ESP as standard after the fact? But this also makes little sense to me.

So far your theory is the most plausible. But I hope it isn't true.
For the sake of safety!

Best,
G

[ron178]

Originally Posted by d3mon

As always, thank you for your detailed analysis!

About the pedestrian & ESC tests - if you were Maruti, would you sponsor a test if you knew you would flunk? In other words, if Maruti had sponsored the test, do you think the WagonR would have passed in both of these tests?

India's AIS100 pedestrian impact standard is nearly identical to the existing GTR. In fact out of every car tested by Latin NCAP since 2020, Indian-built Suzukis have the best pedestrian protection performance. I don't know about the ESC test. R13H is an old, repeatable test with a steering robot and I believe ESC systems from most suppliers pass with ease (I believe other members here like @fiat_tarun are in a much better position to explain). In any case, I would like the qualifying criterion for 'fail' to be 'fail' and not 'not tested'.

Originally Posted by Karthik.guru

Do you have any sources or ways to verify this information? Cause if true, it punches a big gaping hole in GNCAP ratings!

Can't verify for sure, but the protocol does state the manufacturer has to sponsor these extra tests, and based on Maruti not recommending child seats it looks like they did not want anything to do with GNCAP so I think sponsorship is out of the question.

[Contrapunto]

I hope awareness and visibility of safety tests (and results) ACTUALLY changes customer behavior. Safer cars sell, unsafe care lose favour. ONLY THEN will manufacturers change their product mix, the market dynamics will change and cars in roads will become a safer place.

Unfortunately, I think none of this will happen......(call me a cynic)

Indian car buyer will continue to favour bling (6 speakers/ diamond-cut alloy) over solid build and safety. Safer cars will lag in sales charts. Carmakers will adapt to what customers want, or just leave the country/ market. Unsafe tin cans will rule, with little kids standing in the front passenger well, or sitting on mother's lap in the front seat :-(

[Keeleri_Achu]

Originally Posted by ron178

Can't verify for sure, but the protocol does state the manufacturer has to sponsor these extra tests

Wouldn't this mean that no non-sponsored car will be getting anything beyond two stars as GNCAP could simply choose not to do the ESC/ESP test and apply the star cap? Likewise for the side pole test. Couldn't they choose to not do it if non sponsored and just limit the rating? At least to me, this just feels like a way of black mailing someone.

I can understand if they are choosing to refrain from testing due to budget issues. But an ESC test is nothing but a robotic arm testing out a maneuver at a set speed. What is stopping them from doing this test on a car before they crash test it? And hey, they have the budget to test and re test the entry line up of Maruti.

As evident from this forum itself, very few people tend to dive deep into the results and read between the lines. Majority tend to just look at the star rating and make up their minds. Oh well, to each his own.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by IYoungAre

this will increase the prices of most of the <10 lakh cars by a lot.
This means, first time car buyers will need to save a lot more or settle with pre-owned car for the time being.

And this is the problem with your otherwise well intentioned logic.
The more a family's first car is delayed the more likely they're to travel on a two wheeler which is magnitudes unsafe than even the 0 star rated "tin can". IIRC 70% of our road fatalities are two wheeler riders/pillions. Forcing people to pay up more and then delay a purchase isn't an effective implementation in our car scene. Remember that we are the fortunate minority who represent a fraction of the car buyers to whom a price hike of 50k is the difference between a purchase or not. Also the "first car" is a very emotional purchase so usually people are averse to used cars. Like I said, copying a western concept without local adaptation isn't going to work. Even overseas cars have to go through homologation tests before being approved for sales.
IMO a strong BNVSAP is the one which is going to make a real difference on ground.

Originally Posted by ron178

In this case it seems to be another case of an "unfair" one star rating like the Swift's. Initial rating of two stars, reduced by one star because of more than 5.6pts difference in front and side scores.

Brilliant explanation, I hope that before passing judgements, folks would first understand the testing protocols.

[Tom Sooraj]

I don't know why people are bashing Maruti. I'm not supporting Maruti, but sharing what I really feel.

I feel Maruti has shown some improvement in the safety aspect when compared to Hyundai/Kia.

Leave the WagonR, but I'm quite impressed with the Alto K10 not only for the safety ratings (it may vary depending on the presence of other safety devices like 6 airbags, etc.), but also for the achievement of a stable bodyshell.

Even Tata Tiago/Tigor has an unstable bodyshell. And we also don't know what will be the GNCAP scores according to the updated GNCAP protocol for the Tiago/Tigor. So, cannot comment more on that.

And one more thing which is to be noted is, a car costing around 6 lakhs (Alto K10) has a stable bodyshell and a stable A-pillar after the crash at 64 kmph, whereas a car costing more than 12 lakhs (Kia Carens) has an unstable bodyshell and a collapsing A-pillar after the crash at 64 kmph.

Attaching images for reference.

[ProLearner]

Excellent results for the VAG 2.0 cars. They might lack in some aspects in the interior or finesse, but the build is uncompromised.

Maruti Suzuki will not have much effect even with these results, as their cars sell no matter what. It would be interesting to know about the Brezza, Baleno and grand vitara. Suzuki models in other countries are safer than Indian models. Same with Hyundai. As long as the sales don't take a hit (which won't happen as they make the most value-for-money cars), it is all good for them.
Just look at the response for the Fronx. It is also built on the HeartTect platform right? Or is it on the Global C platform?

[TSI_Exhaust]

These safety ratings are going to be a trend with Maruti because they are giving people a 4-wheeler at the least possible price point sacrificing safety in the process, which the typical Indian Car Buying Mindset does not care about.

People are getting what they want, simple as that.
Sales numbers for the brand are through the roof.
Nothing will change and nothing new to see here.

UNLESS ..

1. People are educated about safety. (some are educated already but choose to ignore it)
2. GOI makes stricter rules around the cars being allowed to ply on Indian roads with safety being of paramount importance. (ESC, EBD, high steel strength use, good GNCAP/ASEAN/LATIN NCAP ratings to being with, airbag count etc.)
3. Safety ratings being displayed before you go out and buy a car. No car should be allowed to ply on roads before a production spec model is tested and the ratings are out.

The above is actually very easy to do. Just need to implement the rules.

[ac 427]

Originally Posted by hitman30

I don't get why everybody is bashing Maruti. Just look at their sales chart. GM, Ford has left the Indian market, Honda, Toyota have just a couple of models each. Maruti is giving the Indian consumers what they want and they are delighted! If you prioritise safety, just stay away from Maruti. Simple!

Because when you are the market leader, you have to behave like one.
RC Bharagavs borderline irresponsible statement that ammounted to "we don't believe in GNCAP ratings" says a lot about how Maruti/Suzuki value their customers.

If this is anything to go by, we are just another number for Maruti.

Going back to my first point, when you are the market leader, it's your responsibility to introduce new ideas, new formats, new ways of doing things.. because the cost of failure for a market leader is far lower than for a number 7 or 8.

It also points towards another thing, dish out any below par product to us Indians and we will lap it up.

If anything, the number 7, 8, 9 rankers in that case should throw caution to the wind and start selling is tin cans with the best features and no safety.

Imagine all cars sold in India, ranking 2 or 1 star in India. Does that make fora favourable view?

Who loses? Us the customers.

I guess that's why everyone is bashing maruti. But i might be wrong.

Cheers,
Ac