[epiccross]

Originally Posted by neeravnaik

Arguments remind me of debates around vaccines. There have been numerous studies done for these vaccines and on the whole personally for me probability says that you are better off taking vaccines. Those opposed to vaccines always seem to be coming up with non-scientific or heuristic based evidences. They do not seem to be based on large scale studies and on evaluating both sides I find pro-vaccine results more credible.

Not a great parallel IMO. A bunch of us are exactly questioning the lack of rigour and standardization when it comes to testing. If anything, it is more like the pro-vaxx stance. A better, objective, transparent, more consistent version of GNCAP would be absolutely great. They can surely fix all the stuff that is broken. It's a call for them to become that, rather than trashing crash tests as a whole. The whole narrative with "stars" in public discourse is incredibly muddled.

Right now this is what we have, sure. But this can be a lot better, and hopefully Bharat NCAP can be a more rigorous and transparent body which can actually enforce safety standards. But seeing what's being done, I'm afraid it might be reduced to just "quick fixes" like the six airbag rule. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong though.

[shamanths3]

Please add another option "Can't say for sure, but it's better to have them than not".
2 options with negative scenarios is not right I feel. But the concensus is clear I guess. NCAP is trustworthy.

[MDED]

It all boils down to taking things with a pinch of salt. No one is a saint and every organization and individual has got a self agenda to maximise their own gains. However, these gains have to appear as legit and hence propaganda comes to the fore.

GNCAP no doubt is not fool proof vis-à-vis safety if a vehicle, however in a relative context if you see then you can relate the vehicles build quality with the GNCAP test and then can safely assume the ballpark strength of the vehicle in an event or crash!

Tomorrow if the GoI launches “Bharat NCAP”, do you think you can trust them blindly! The answer is a massive NO. Any government run entity or body will be run by the bureaucrats who like the general public to be lost in the labyrinth of their ecosystem.

Hence, “Dikhawe par mat jao, apni akal lagao”!

[Carma2017]

NCAP seems trustworthy as per the votes of the educated BHPians here. But the finer print is, that most BHPians think that in absence of any other alternative (credible or otherwise), there is no option but to deem it trustworthy. From what I see in comments, a lot of us have doubts about their motives and integrity (GNCAP's beef with Suzuki is now boring and hardly elicits a reaction as is their deliberate omission of testing of certain vehicles from other OEMs) but BHP-ians do agree with the test results general direction.

I too belong to the same camp but feel GNCAP'S definition of safety is too narrow and needs to encompass handling safety as well as in many cases poor handling and non-manouverability is the genesis of a crash. Hence I cannot term GNCAP as the only guide to judging a vehicle's safety. I feel that one should always go for a drive check and if the drive and handling inspires confidence, only then should you look at safety ratings.

However, what worries me even more is that people do not understand the interpretation of GNCAP reports which are presented with theatrical words like "structurally unstable" etc. Such points were explained beautifully by ron178 in his posts. Wish more people read it before making up their minds about vehicular safety in crash. Hence, i cannot term GNCAP ratings as trustworthy as their very presentation is tailored to meet a theme instead of portraying data objectively.

[shortbread]

A lot of posts seem to place the blame of maruti's terrible safety record at the feet of NCAP. That's unfortunate because its a reputation that maruti has gained over decades of selling tin-boxes in India. They have staunchly opposed new and improved safety regulations and continue to do so. Almost every Indian adult has a story to tell about maruti's featherweight build quality. All NCAP did was to shed light on an already well embedded truth in the Indian auto industry.

[HammerHead]

As for the question, Do you think GNcap Ratings are trustworthy?
Yes I do as there is a science behind these tests.

However I do have a basic question around GNCAP & EuroNCAP. Do they follow similar test parameters? Especially for frontal crash?

Asking cause I had my doubts on all those SUV's with Fiat's 2.0L Multijet diesel not being crash tested however I do see EuroNCAP rated 2017 Jeep Compass 2.0 as 5 full stars.

Here are the details.
https://cdn.euroncap.com/media/49588...-datasheet.pdf

So where does this statement stands then?

"6) All popular cars like Compass, Harrier, Safari, Hector, Hector + which have the 2.0 litre multijet diesel engine are not tested. There's a manufacturing flaw in this diesel engine wherein the oil filter assembly enters cabin when a crash happens and will impact safety. GNCAP has ignored all these cars for tests till now !"

[AkMar]

Originally Posted by HammerHead

Asking cause I had my doubts on all those SUV's with Fiat's 2.0L Multijet diesel not being crash tested however I do see EuroNCAP rated 2017 Jeep Compass 2.0 as 5 full stars.

Here are the details.
https://cdn.euroncap.com/media/49588...-datasheet.pdf

So where does this statement stands then?

"6) All popular cars like Compass, Harrier, Safari, Hector, Hector + which have the 2.0 litre multijet diesel engine are not tested. There's a manufacturing flaw in this diesel engine wherein the oil filter assembly enters cabin when a crash happens and will impact safety. GNCAP has ignored all these cars for tests till now !"

As per what I understood from previous discussions regarding this topic, the issue is for right hand drive vehicles. The Euro NCAP test was for left hand drive Compass.

Correct me if I am wrong

[Turbosailor]

As for the question, Do you think GNcap Ratings are trustworthy?

Yes indeed. Have seen Gncap rated 4 & 5 star cars met with accident and trust me, they really matters. That passenger cabin was fully intact and most of passengers walked away with minor injuries. On the other hand cars which scored 0 to 3 stars were crushed like a coke can and very few survivors, especially when collided with HMV and to fixed concrete structures. And trust me those visuals stills hunts. "We need responsible drivers, safer cars and safer roads"

[lamborghini]

I personally like to believe they are reliable within reason for vehicles that have been tested.

Of course there are a couple areas of concern:
1. Manufacturer's know what points are tested, and can often focus on those points and compromise elsewhere - of course within limits as the car body has to work in unison. A tin can roof mated to strong A pillar would still be noticed.

2. There are so many NCAPs! It's as though every manufacturer has a chance at getting a 5 star vehicle depending on the standard of testing by that country's NCAP. This is a big deal in misleading buyers - remember the 5 star safety Creta Ads! Similarly the 5 star NCAP Tucson got 3 stars in Latin NCAP.
Now the standard of testing in Latin NCAP is higher than a few other NCAPs, but it creates confusion - even on this forum with car enthusiasts. Imagine how it would be for the average buyer who wants a safe car.
While this is unavoidable given the level of development in various countries (and thus the safety features, etc. on offer), it would be good to have a more standardized format, or NCAP actually making a hue and cry over misleading ads.

[kaps454]

Originally Posted by 07CR

I
Listing few excerpts from the Motorbeam Podcast-

We face this dilemma on a daily basis as medics when we take an "informed consent". It is almost next to impossible for a lay person to understand the nuances and complexities of his/her treatment plan and options and likely outcomes (specially under stress) and as docs probably tend to put our own biases into our explanation in order to nudge the patient towards a particular treatment option which we think is best for the patient and most often than not, it is.

So the same applies here, only a professional with technical knowledge can decipher the meaning of these tests and the two people in this video own up to not being technically qualified. So I would go with the NCAP and have voted yes.

Originally Posted by 07CR

1) GNCAP has tested same car twice in a span of under two years which hasn't received any significant facelift or update. These are couple of old maruti cars. Instead of testing these, why not test something new and which will sell a lot, like Hyryder, Grand Vitara, new Brezza etc.

The same marques were tested when they were made on a different platform. The new Wagon R is visibly much different from the older one, with much thicker A pillars and scored better.

Originally Posted by 07CR

2) Nexon pre facelift was tested and scored 5 star, no update on updated Nexon rating yet Tata advertises it as 5 star rated product.

Same old X2 platfrom.

Originally Posted by 07CR

3) The day Nexon, Tiago and Tigor were launched, safety ratings of each car were announced by GNCAP. How could they time this ?

TATA probably sponsered the test and timed the announcement. But how does that change the validity of the result? It is a marketing strategy.

Originally Posted by 07CR

4) Kia seltos base model was tested and recieved 3 stars. Scorpio N model which was tested wasn't a base model and scored 5 stars. Why not maintain uniformity while testing?

Don't know but NCAP normally tests the base model. Mahindra might have sponsored the top model car for testing. Infact, the TATA Zest was tested twice, the base model by NCAP which score 0 stars and then TATA sponsored the XT model for testing which I think scored 4 stars 8 years back.

Originally Posted by 07CR

5) GNCAP claims it's a non profit organization. It tests cars in two ways-
A) Manufacturer sends car for testing themselves and costs are borne by manufacturer.
B) When GNCAP tests a car, they test it randomly. How do they manage this being a non profit organization? Are these tests sponsored by a rival manufacturer? If yes, is it ethical and reliable?

NCAP is funded by charities, governments and safety equipment manufacturers.

Originally Posted by 07CR

6) All popular cars like Compass, Harrier, Safari, Hector, Hector + which have the 2.0 litre multijet diesel engine are not tested. There's a manufacturing flaw in this diesel engine wherein the oil filter assembly enters cabin when a crash happens and will impact safety. GNCAP has ignored all these cars for tests till now !

Heard this multiple times. but it is an easy fix, weaken the oil filter assembly structure so that it breaks during a crash and reinforce the firewall in the said area. It has been done before to better the results of the ODB tests by Ford if memory serves. The passenger side does not take the full impact in a ODB test and if they can fool the system by stopping a wheel from intruding in the late 80s, then an oil filter should be easier to remedy.

Originally Posted by 07CR

7) General observation - Most times a manufacturer themselves have sent a car for testing, the car has got 4 or more stars. Most times the GNCAP themselves have tested the cars, these have received 3 or less ⭐! Raised eyebrows!

Obvious! Manufacturer will sponsor the test of a model it knows is safe.

regards kaps454

[trail_lover]

I think we all have to be more worried about government regulations and if they are of global standards. Government regulations so far are less stringent than GNCAP. Is GNCAP too stringent / overkill for India or are government regulations inadequate for optimum safety, and if yes how much inadequate? This is the question no one seems to be answering. If GNCAP is too stringent or unreliable, then why are we not coming up with our own Indian NCAP? The stakeholders just can't agree on a protocol for testing and safety rating, and each one is suggesting rules and regulations that serves their business or profiteering interests. So a Bharat NCAP is still not a reality. If we get our house in order then we will not have GNCAP presiding over our crashworthiness affairs.

The largest car manufacturers in India Maruti and Hyundai so far are not designing for meeting GNCAP or higher. For A, B segment models which constitute the majority of the cars sold in India, Maruti and Hyundai are only meeting government regulations. Now, in order to make the vehicle more crashworthy price will have to increase. Anyone who wants to compete in pricing with the largest car makers might only offer similar levels of poor crashworthiness.

Due to this, my conclusion is that GNCAP has still not had a significant direct impact on crashworthiness of high volume A and B segment models. At the end of the day it is the government and stakeholders in India that can create the required impact with more stringent regulations that is optimum for our country.

Now let me spell out the ultimate root cause for this problem. It is the absence of collection of reliable accident data in India. A database should be mandated and the findings from all accidents should be analysed to see the causes of accidents, in which models more passengers succumbed, at what speeds accident happened and root cause assessment. Then we can come to conclusions on optimum safety standards, which models need to be phased out etc. But right now, we seem to be in a state of confusion on new car assessment programs. GNCAP is generating a lot of hype in the press, but we don't know how much impact it has had in reducing injuries and fatalities, because we don't have the objective data!

[Carma2017]

Originally Posted by trail_lover

Now let me spell out the ultimate root cause for this problem. It is the absence of collection of reliable accident data in India. A database should be mandated and the findings from all accidents should be analysed to see the causes of accidents, in which models more passengers succumbed, at what speeds accident happened and root cause assessment. Then we can come to conclusions on optimum safety standards, which models need to be phased out etc. But right now, we seem to be in a state of confusion on new car assessment programs. GNCAP is generating a lot of hype in the press, but we don't know how much impact it has had in reducing injuries and fatalities, because we don't have the objective data!

India has its database of accident data. It is called RASSI which is actually like a consortium of IITs, Safety Equipment manufacturers(Airbag, Seatbelt makers etc) Car Manufacturing companies and government entities as well. RASSI analyses accident data and stores in its database which requires paid access. However, they do not include all accidents but only those that have been analysed and reconstructed. Hence, one may call the database incomplete. But the picture that emerges out of the current database is eye opening in itself for people who believe in data.

Let us suffice to stay, all GNCAP ratings and "scientific tests" and even regulatory crash tests only work with the assumption that the inhabitants are belted. Every result is invalid without the same. And RASSI data does not paint a very nice picture of this very basic requirement. Also, there are various other inferences about timing of incidents, age group, gender involvement, type of accident (Static objects ir Dynamic objects) etc which again shows what we believe and feel is superficial at best. GNCAP does push manufacturers to make robust vehicles for various crash scenarios but lacks Indian context.

[The Rationalist]

What is the point of this thread? Forget GNCAP, if Maruti is confident about three safety of their cars, they should insist on BNCAP to be implemented soon. Once Government of India does crash testing, all those who are against GNCAP can come back and argue that crash testings aren't ideal thing, there are other factors, at least cars are safer than two wheelers etc. There are a bunch of naysayers for crash testing, for them no objective data will be enough. No point discussing with people having a prejudice. There is a saying in my language "you can awaken a sleeping person, but not someone who is pretending!".

[digitalnirvana]

Originally Posted by epiccross

Being pissed off at Maruti is one thing, but I'm not really sold on GNCAP as their testing is really not standardaized enough for my liking.

And that's the crux of it, because it's your opinion, just like the member you quoted posted theirs.

Let's use Occam's razor and keep this simple. Have any of the manufacturers disputed any of the results till date? Yes? No? There is the answer.

As to the second part of selective testing - GNCAP sources vehicles in two ways. One, they buy outright. Two, manufacturers send them test vehicles so it's obvious that the results are skewed in favor of manufacturers who are confident of a good result.

And yes they could buy more on their own and test more. Including some of the usual suspects that come up in every thread like this. But they haven't, for whatever reason. Malice? Malpractice? Could be. Could be not. We'll spend pages with conjectures without proving anything.

What's obvious is that no manufacturer has questioned their testing methodology which tells me all I need to know.

Apologies if I was particularly harsh. Its just that sometimes it feels to me like we're a flat earth society here, trying to find solutions to problems that don't exist.

[Arun Varma]

Originally Posted by digitalnirvana

What's obvious is that no manufacturer has questioned their testing methodology which tells me all I need to know.

Great point! I also think that no manufacturer has questioned their testing methodology because these ratings do not impact their sales much!

Looking at traditional poor performers like Hyundai and Maruti as examples, they continue to dominate the market share. Now, the easy response would be that most people who buy them are not discerning / don't care about safety ratings / are m*r*ns, etc. but it could also be that these ratings do not directly correlate to the real life experiences of road users. I don't know if we have objective empirical data that better rated cars perform better in real life crashes. I would assume there would be a lot more confounding variables involved in real life accidents which makes such data / correlations tricky.

Personally, I think these NCAP ratings should be part of a bouquet of good practices. Not only should all cars to be mandatorily safety tested on a structured, repetitive, timeline, and results published but also, as many have repeated ad nauseam here, we also need better driving driving practices with more stringent enforcement. A proper reward and punitive framework and a betterment of the existing infrastructure, among other things.