[Arun Varma]

Originally Posted by theabstractmind

Every single innocent life saved due to an accident averted due to enforcement of a rule or following an etiquette however stupid it sounds, is worth more than the thrill some entitled driver derives by driving at an unmentionable speed.

+1 That is the tragedy here!

Originally Posted by warrioraks

As a person who works with data to earn his bread, I can assure you this statement is flawed in countless ways.
Absence of reliable data does not make crap data your number 1 alternate. The only option is to go back to the drawing board and collect the data again.
.

It is always a pity when people dismiss data that doesn't support their opinions. As someone who also uses data to take and make decisions, I know you can squeeze data to tell the story you would like to be told. Also, as an administrator who has a fair grasp what it is to build and implement at scale, I can assure you that this is the best data we will get for a country of our size till we go more digital. And even then, even when that data says the same thing, it will be dismissed because it doesn't support someone's opinion!

[EV NXT]

Shakespeare probably had something similar to this thread in mind when he said “Much ado about nothing”.

No manufacturer is going to calibrate the ECU with a speed limit of 120 kmph validity or otherwise of arguments on this thread notwithstanding.

Are we so starved of discussion areas that we need to come up with a fantasy and then start discussing pros and cons of that fantasy ?

Here I am following the limit in a Lamborghini Hurracan:

[theabstractmind]

Originally Posted by warrioraks

Contradictory statements. This rule either will result in saving tens of thousand of lives OR will not have a drastic impact. Cannot be both.
My opinion (not backed by any data) is that the person who will crash at 125 km/hr wont be safe at at 120 km/hr as well. So this ECU thing is more or less redundant.


Yes change is good. But not on a whim!
What’s worse than status quo - a change for the worst.

PS: No chance we are coming on the same page. But I respect your opinion and humbly agree to disagree.

I'm not being humble. You are again trying to argue or highlight a technicality of a word or a statement and ignoring the essence of a statement.

My opinion also not backed by data says again the same thing, if I can prevent one idiot from driving at 150kmph jumping into another lane or losing control and taking the life of an innocent oncoming vehicle's occupants or a pedestrian, the measure would have done it's job. The likelihood of it based on past known instances is at least one.

[warrioraks]

Originally Posted by Arun Varma

It is always a pity when people dismiss data that doesn't support their opinions. As someone who also uses data to take and make decisions, I know you can squeeze data to tell the story you would like to be told. Also, as an administrator who has a fair grasp what it is to build and implement at scale, I can assure you that this is the best data we will get for a country of our size till we go more digital. And even then, even when that data says the same thing, it will be dismissed because it doesn't support someone's opinion!

A pdf file was shared with data and qualified with words like this information can be erroneous, from poor sources and might be contrary to anecdotal evidence. Despite that, the entire argument is revolving around the same pdf file and data set. Not sure who is being selective here.

There is nothing called as best available data. You either have good data or you don’t. In the case you don’t, one decides based on opinions and instinct which is fine in absence of reliable info.
But let’s not masquerade it as data backed opinions.

I think we are getting into an entirely different domain here. So as I said to another fellow member on this thread. I respect your opinion and humbly disagree.

Originally Posted by Arun Varma

For all who are seeking "data", attached is the PDF from MORTH (ministry of road transport and highways) which details road accidents for the year 2020. Couldn't find the data for 2021 but I think it would be safe for us to extrapolate the themes which is likely to be similar.
….
I realize this is not going to convince anyone who has already made up their minds this data is bogus or from poor sources, "barely literate cops" as one person put it. But in the absence of an alternative that is more robust, and even accounting for massive amount of error in the data, and with due respects to the convenient anecdotes and recollections to the contrary, it still will be the number 1 reason.

[warp_10]

Very interesting topic and does touch a nerve across multiple BHPians including myself.

Is it the right decision to do to restrict to a cap of all speed limits ? Well these are the first set of problems we need to think about if so (not covering the ones that fellow BHPians already covered above):

- What happens when the car goes across a country (we have so many BHPians driving from India to Bhutan, Bangladesh etc.), or take it elsewhere ?

- Infrastructure improves day over day in India (with the speed of growth its not year over year). What happens when we have a more faster freeway ? You are bound to see more such news frequently https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto...525886957.html

- What if the person owns a speedster and wants to run it in a racing track with allowed conditions of higher speeds ?

We go about resetting and updating the software the unit for each of these above conditions ? If anything is reset in software it can very well be easily tampered. It just complicates and too many knots and policies in it.

- When the threshold is crossed by a surge of power from the drive train (ECU is slower to react since its peripheral), ECU might cut down as an after thought causing a sudden lag making it prone to accidents.

But the biggest ever reason of all might not any of the above. Governments / officials make tons of money with fines and no government will want to kill a cash cow. (US would have been the first to implement if not, they make tons with it).

[Amey Kulkarni]

Limiting speed limits / cars thought = FAIL for an international driving license.

Speeding is not the cause of accidents.

No Proper infrastructure
Hardly any road signs
No lane discipline
Careless driving
No penalties / fines for after effects

These are major factors to accidents. But we all know what Indian govt is doing. Open potholes but enforcing more Ertiga Interceptors for fines on people. Appalling!

The focus itself is incorrect!!!

Here’s a 160 Kmph speed limit. Dangerous? Absolutely NOT!

It’s obvious to think why NOT!





The day India gets proper infrastructure and discipline on roads, speed limits can go up.

Mumbai - Pune EW sees 50Kmph at some parts; Looks like the country is going backwards. and most of the people paying INR 2K fines clearly defines what the government wants to do : another way of “Corruption”.

Crap roads so illogical speed limits so let people pay fine, but we won’t improve infrastructure.

Cheers
Amey

[tilt]

Originally Posted by MT_Hyderabad

*SNIP*
Bringing women driving into this further drives us away from the topic. Sarcasm vs Hate speech vs Freedom of speech are well debated topics elsewhere, may not be a good place to discuss them here.

This was the "ad absurdum" portion of "reductio ad absurdum". You can see how ridiculous my general sweeping statement is.

If you are interested to know how speed limits are created, may be you can create a separate thread(provided it doesn't exist already) and we all will contribute.

I believe I have already posted as video on this topic a few years ago - I do not have the Google-fu to find it and link it here.

Edited to add: I found my old post with the video, here for your viewing pleasure https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/stree...ml#post3930764 (Soon, you will be able to hit 140 kmph on expressways)

i believe I am aware of how they are supposed to be set and I also (cynically) "know" that they are set purely to maximise revenue with zero concern for, you know, safety.

It is the other way around. I follow traffic rules in India and everyone should follow traffic rules in India.

Do you? Really? With no exceptions? I know for a fact that I have "broken the law" a few times.

Speed limits are as per LAW.

The "LAW" can and has been changed a few times.

Originally Posted by Bhargav7

*SNIP*
In my view, if you go beyond the speed limit, you are a bad driver.

My definition of a "bad driver" differs from yours. In my definition a bad driver is someone who does not take current prevalent conditions into account while driving. That could be driving higher than the limit in a school zone when school is just out. You are not a bad driver if you did this while school is in session and the kids are inside though.

My definition of a bad driver is one who cannot judge an overtake and desperately tries to push someone off just to get out of the way of oncoming traffic.

A bad driver is someone who merges into a lane immediately after turning on the indicators without checking if they would hinder someone coming up behind in the destination lane.

A bad driver is one who causes another driver to brake or take evasive action when they would not have needed to do so otherwise.

A driver who drives at 140 on an empty, smooth straight where the limit is 80 is not a bad driver (in my opinion and mine alone)

Please note, unlike some people, I do differentiate between rash driving and driving faster than posted limits.

Cheers

[pjbiju]

Originally Posted by SS_36

Given the following:
1. Poor self-control of speeds by drivers of India
2. Little to no speed enforcement on highways
3. Large % of accidents on highways linked to speeding
4. Highest speed limit anywhere in the country is 120 kmph
5. We don't have Autobahns like in Germany
6. Cars have advanced ECUs today

Then why allow car manufacturers to make and sell cars that can go faster than 120 kmph? Can the Govt. not mandate ECU controlled speed limit of 120 kmph on all new cars? This can be retroactively implemented on all cars already sold, at least those that have the ECU capability.

Cars can still have large engines and be sporty to drive; the thrill coming from high accelerations (0 to max 120 only) rather than high speeds.

A few thoughts. With the advanced technologies we have today I have often wondered why not have a system to dynamically control the max speeds of vehicles for any given stretch. For example, as soon a a vehicle enters a city zone where the max speed limit is say 50 kmph, a command can be sent to the ECU to set this limit. Once you exit the city zone, your speed limit increases to what is applicable to that area. This is like kind of a speed-fencing system with different speed limits. This can also be utilized to change the speed limits dynamically based on weather conditions, road conditions etc. For example for a stretch of a highway where the speed limit is 100 kmph, if there is fog or heavy rain, the speed limit can dynamically be changed to something appropriate. However I am not aware of any country where this is implemented. Also it will not work with older vehicles.

Now coming to the Indian highways and expressways. Having clocked a large number of kilometers on our highways I find the issues to be the following:

1. Lack of proper training for the drivers and poor driver skill evaluation before driving licenses are granted. I think this training should start at the school level. The school level training will teach about road manners that are to be followed by a driver. An example of bad manners or poor road awareness is people turning on the hazard lights inside tunnels while going at 80-90 kmph. Always see this in MH. Even small children can be taught about traffic lights, lane discipline etc. This will bring in a cultural change for the better over a period of time.
2. Poorly maintained road infrastructure. I see this as a big issue even on highways with tolls. There will be sudden huge potholes (blame the rain) on an otherwise smooth road and these are sometimes not repaired for days on end; speed breakers; barriers; water-clogged sections; poor or no run off or shoulder areas for a vehicle to stop in case of a breakdown; poorly repaired potholes; sudden road dividers etc. Several of these lead to panic braking, tyre burst, loss of vehicle or other driver behavior (swerving etc.) that lead to accidents.
3. The same highway being occupied by vehicles doing or capable of different max speeds. There are 2-wheelers/3-wheelers/tractors doing 30-40 kmph, trucks doing 50-70 kmph, buses doing 70-90 kmph and cars doing 80-120 kmph. Of course there are 2-wheelers or cars doing much higher speeds as well. Most of the 4 lane (2 x 2) highways will have the slow moving 2-wheelers/3-wheelers/tractors occupying the slower lane. This forces most of the trucks to move to the faster lane. And then faster vehicles like cars and buses weave through this mess to get ahead, most often overtaking from the left. This invariably leads to accidents at some point.

Point number 3 above leads to people trying to drive much faster than the legal speed limits to make up for the lost time because of slower moving traffic. Imagine if every vehicle on the same highway was driving at 80 kmph or whatever else is the speed limit of that highway. There would be no need to drive much faster since you will have a close to 80 kmph average speed in spite of not driving faster. Whereas with the current situation your average speeds would be 40-50 kmph even after driving at much higher speeds than the limits for short bursts of time.

You can validate the above by driving after say 10 or 11 p.m. You will always reach your destination faster even if you are not driving at much higher speeds that you would normally do during the day. Unfortunately we only see most of the vehicles driving more or less at the same speeds only on highways in some of the developed countries. The only way to get there in India would be to have dedicated lanes or roads for slower moving traffic and enforce faster moving vehicles to stick to speed limits. If one can drive at 100 or 120 kmph continuously we can cover huge distances in a short time and the driver is not going to be as much stressed as they would be today because there will be less weaving in/out and overtaking to do. All you have to do is to get into the lane and keep up with other vehicles.

[Bhargav7]

Originally Posted by tilt

My definition of a "bad driver" differs from yours. In my definition a bad driver is someone who does not take current prevalent conditions into account while driving. That could be driving higher than the limit in a school zone when school is just out. You are not a bad driver if you did this while school is in session and the kids are inside though.

.
.
.
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A driver who drives at 140 on an empty, smooth straight where the limit is 80 is not a bad driver (in my opinion and mine alone)

Please note, unlike some people, I do differentiate between rash driving and driving faster than posted limits.

Cheers

Thanks for this! I appreciate your opinion - but again, I do not agree with it

Generally, the roads are designed to handle speeds a little exceeding the speed limits. So a road with a speed limit of 80 would probably be engineered to support speeds of 100 and not beyond that. Sure, the road looks empty, but may not be safe for 140-level speeds. And no point blaming infrastructure if some untoward incident happens - we have been warned of the speed limit.

And your analogy on school is probably wrong beyond doubt. It is practically impossible nowadays, to know the school timings of all schools where we drive - some schools start at 8, some at 11. Some end at 12 some at 3 - no way we can conclude the school is in mid-session. So what do we do? Just adhere to the speed limit always. To be fair - I realized the importance of this only when I started driving my daughter to school. There are too many people out there who do not know the importance of driving slowly in a school zone.

Also, breaking speed limits is unlawful - Just that we don't really respect Indian laws. I doubt any Indian would try to do it in the US or other western countries.

[tilt]

Originally Posted by Bhargav7

Thanks for this! I appreciate your opinion - but again, I do not agree with it *SNIP*

Thank you; and of course!

Cheers

[krishnakumar]

Originally Posted by Bhargav7

Generally, the roads are designed to handle speeds a little exceeding the speed limits. So a road with a speed limit of 80 would probably be engineered to support speeds of 100 and not beyond that. Sure, the road looks empty, but may not be safe for 140-level speeds. And no point blaming infrastructure if some untoward incident happens - we have been warned of the speed limit.

OT: But as a civil engineer (only by degree and not by current profession), I recall that we used to take a factor of safety of 2-2.5 for designing roads. The posted speed limits are by the local authorities and not based on road designers. Even if we were to assume 80kph to be posted by road designers, the true speed for which it would be designed for will be ~200kph.

This is recollected knowledge from my graduation that happened 10 years ago. So I may not be accurate here, but a factor of safety of bare 1.1-1.15 seems extremely aggressive and would be far from reality.

[AJ56]

Some people here want government mandated GPS in every drivers car, all in the interest of public safety of course. Either they haven’t read George Orwell, or they have and desire the type of future a tyrannical government brings with it.

I suspect personal freedom means nothing to such folks and they’d support a complete ban on gun ownership as well. This logic of limiting speed to increase safety is inherently flawed, unless we limit it to 10-15 km/hr, as anything above that can easily kill a person. And if we did it would reduce road fatality to zero, but at what cost? The economy of such a nation would collapse.

And why stop at speeds, let’s ban electricity as well. Clearly we don’t want any deaths from electrical fires every year. What about sugar, alcohol and junk food? These 3 kill more people every year than roads every could. Ban them all, or better yet have government mandated foods we are allowed to consume. Clearly it’s for the public good, why should others’ health insurance premiums rise due to your poor food choices?

Speed never kills, incompetent drivers do. An idiot at 50 can cause a fatal crash.

[MT_Hyderabad]

Originally Posted by tilt

Do you? Really? With no exceptions? I know for a fact that I have "broken the law" a few times.

I never knew perfectionists existed until now.

They find faults in general statements, for example someone wrote:

"I do not drink alcohol, so all alcohol should be banned in India"

Is he sure that he do not drink alcohol? Really? With no exceptions?

Most of the syrups contain easily measurable amounts of alcohol.
Each and every medicine we take has small amount of alcohol. Even Tablets!
They are tested by a test called "Residual solvents" and there is a limit prescribed for it. Yes, "LIMIT" which we are discussing.

Perfectionist word is itself non existent.

You ask a perfectionist his/her age..

The response expected looks something like this:
80 years, 11 months, 24 days, 35 minutes, 46, 47, 48, 49...... seconds.
The response should continue until this person dies.

Unfortunately, I have made peace with this imperfect world and dont waste my time in finding faults unnecessarily.

Originally Posted by tilt

The "LAW" can and has been changed a few times.

Yes. But, they are not changed on forum discussions. Like I said in my previous post, there are places where rules are different or non existent. One is free to live as per his/her rules there. Even in our country, I am free to break rules if I am ready to pay the price (not only monetary) of breaking that rule.

If the govt. fixes 120km/hr ECU controlled limit, one will get aftermarket solutions to break the code and drive as per his/her need, provided he/she is ready to face the penalty/punishment.

The NGT rule of 10 year max registration for Diesel vehicles in Delhi is one such example. Will 9 years 11 months old car pollute less than 10 years and 1 month old car?

There are rules of this forum too, one can debate endlessly why 3 emoticons are not allowed

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by tilt

I do not drive faster than 80, so nobody in India should need to.

I do not drive an automatic, so no one in India should need to.
I do not drink alcohol, so all alcohol should be banned in India
I do not like smoking, so all tobacco products should be banned
I do not like meat, so no one in India should need to buy or eat meat
I can climb stairs, so no one in India should need to use escalators and elevators
I am allergic to peanuts, so no one in India or the world should need to
I do not like people talking on their cellphones, so all cellphones should be banned
I think carbohydrates are bad for health, so all carb-foods should be banned
I think Carnatic music is the only true music, so any other music should be banned.
I think (people from certain states or communities) are bad and so should not be permitted to buy or rent any homes in my neighbourhood.

Cheers

Global NCAP awards safety ratings to cars with a maximum speed of 64 km/h not 120km/h. So 120km/h is more than reasonable. By your logic, seat belts shouldn't be mandatory as people should be free to choose right? What's the use of one-ways if people are free to drive on both ways as they please?

Your driving of an automatic won't affect others but your driving at more than 120 km/h can affect others as well as you personally.

Alcohol, Meat, Peanuts, Carbohydrates, Music don't pose a threat to anyone around you.

Talking of smoking, there is a ban on public smoking as there is a health risk to non-smokers. Nobody will question you if you smoke in private.

Cellphones have SAR value mentioned by the manufacturer which is required as per law. No company can sell phones beyond permissible SAR value.

Not renting to someone you don't like comes under racism not safety.

Originally Posted by tilt

The limit is 80 like you recommend. If I drove at 81 I am technically overspeeding. Are you saying that the impact I have at 81 will kill me and the other guy and that both of us would have been saved had the impact been at 79 instead?

There has to be some limit and that limit will involve a number taking various factors into account. For example, according to noise pollution rules, the permissible limit is 55 decibels in day in residential areas and 45 decibels in night. Is the law suggesting that 46 db in night will make you deaf? No!

There is a study done in Michigan which found that increased speed limits caused increased accidents:
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-go...crashes-deaths

It is common sense that higher speed has a higher risk of accidents. Are you saying that we shouldn't have any speed limits because they are pointless?

OK, so let me give you some more sarcasm using public safety.
- Vehicles are dangerous, so all vehicles should have a pedestrian flag-bearer walking ahead[/url]
- Corollary to the above, no vehicle should be able to move any faster than a pedestrian.
- Most crashes in India are caused by women drivers, so women should not be permitted to drive. Source for this is the same source that cops use to claim speed as the cause for crashes.

Vehicles are dangerous if driven above speed limit just like Medicines are dangerous if taken more than the dosage. Should we discard the dosage limits too?

Finally, who is banning women from driving?

[MT_Hyderabad]

Originally Posted by AJ56

Some people here want government mandated GPS in every drivers car, all in the interest of public safety of course. Either they haven’t read George Orwell, or they have and desire the type of future a tyrannical government brings with it.

I suspect personal freedom means nothing to such folks and they’d support a complete ban on gun ownership as well. This logic of limiting speed to increase safety is inherently flawed, unless we limit it to 10-15 km/hr..

It is not a want.. It is coming! Whether one wants it or not. We can dig our heads under sand like an Ostrich, but it is coming.

In Hyderabad, we already have automated speed detecting cameras and challan are issued without any human intervention. An example from the internet is attached. Requesting a hyderabad resident on teambhp to share his/her car's image taken by such a speed detecting cam.

Maybe in the next 50 years, you will even lose control on the driver's seat! You just have to sit in the car and that's it. For all our driving pleasure, we can go to tracks.

My and your child's school bus is having an upper limit of 80km/hr. We were silent when this was imposed, why make a noise now? The driver's personal freedom was of no concern then.

Personal freedom ends when public safety is endangered. Djokovic had to leave Australia for lack of vaccination. Govt. can inject a half tested vaccine in everyone's body on the pretext of saving the general public; implementing a good enough speed limit is a piece of cake for them.

I would be happy to revisit this thread after a decade and see what actually happened!