[tilt]

Originally Posted by HowardRoark

*SNIP*. Speeding vehicle will not only kill the speeding driver but also the driver of other vehicle. *SNIP*

Permit me to indulge in some reductio ad absurdum:

The limit is 80 like you recommend. If I drove at 81 I am technically overspeeding. Are you saying that the impact I have at 81 will kill me and the other guy and that both of us would have been saved had the impact been at 79 instead?

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Dear @tilt, A road much like an airport is a public utility asset built for the common and simultaneous use by citizens with vehicles of all sizes and power. And there is a public safety need that this simultaneous usage be safe for all. The examples quoted by you below, aiming at sarcastic humour, are personal habits not usage of a public utility along with hundreds others simultaneously. To that extent the reasoning and sarcasm do not hold water. Speed, jumping signals and driving on the wrong side are among three of the largest root causes of accidents in India and other than enthusiasts on social media I doubt any others in India's 140 crore people would advocate for higher speeds beyond 120 kmph. My vote is for 100 kmph.

OK, so let me give you some more sarcasm using public safety.

- Vehicles are dangerous, so all vehicles should have a pedestrian flag-bearer walking ahead
- Corollary to the above, no vehicle should be able to move any faster than a pedestrian.
- Most crashes in India are caused by women drivers, so women should not be permitted to drive. Source for this is the same source that cops use to claim speed as the cause for crashes.

Cheers

[StopUnderrides]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

SS_36,

our cars should be tuned to our needs in terms of size {smaller}, engine power {lower} and turning circles {tighter}.

This works if everyone agrees to go with smaller cars and trucks agree to have safety measures like AEB, underride bars etc. We need strong regulations and stronger implementation of the regulations for this.

With most local rowdies and politicians preferring fortuner like cars a small car will be at severe disadvantage in collisions. So any reasonable person will go for a larger car/SUV if they can afford it.

[sirjokhi]

Isn’t the most important part of driving judgment? Can you judge an overtake if you limit yourself to 120kmph? Can you calculate the distance, time and the oncoming traffic mathematically in your mind before overtaking? I don’t understand the logic here? It is totally the opposite of safety. What about the road infrastructure? Bridge walls coming out of nowhere with no signs? Lanes suddenly merging with one another without any sort of warning? Unlimited potholes and drivers trying to sway away. You can limit your ecu through a third party i guess and try overtaking. Let us know how it goes. Hope you safely and securely come to a conclusion.

[HighRevving]

Let me put across my opinion, while digressing a bit.

Assume there is a 120 KM/h limit but:

• The driver has never done this before. He's probably a bit drunk or hungover from the previous night but he has been driving for 6 hours now from the onset of dawn.
• He is doing 120 KM/h continuously for many KMs squeezing through vehicles between lanes.
• SA said brake pads will do another 1,000 KMs and tyres will run another 500 KMs so he is happily pasting on the highway.
• When he cannot overtake another vehicle, he will hold up other vehicles behind him but won't let go because, ego.
• Car has little to no safety features, has rear drum brakes, windshield probably has a crack right in the line of vision but he is sitting on the throttle with music blasting all over.
• Tail lamps don't work, doesn't use indicators.
• Likes tailgating, brake checking, loves flying by other cars with mirrors missing each other by a whisker. Will swerve for a cheer by his passenger friends.
• Doesn't understand how trucks take up multiple lanes and has to slow down. But 120 KM/h is the speed limit so anything below is perfectly legal. Tries to squeeze between heavy vehicles, doesn't account for two-wheelers in the slow lane, cannot judge oncoming traffic speed on single-lane roads.

Now this is just a list of what someone can do within the speed limit. Some people claim that their family is being put at risk because of fast drivers - well, a pedestrian can be killed at far less speeds than 120 KM/h, what do we do about it? A truck driving on the wrong side at 30 KM/h can total a car. Putting babies without child seats can injure them. Making the kid stand out the sunroof can injure it. A spilled drink in the car can distract the driver and cause a crash. The only way you can be really safe is if you stay home.

It's a free country. If someone wants to drive at 80 KM/h they should be allowed to. If someone understands the consequences and still does 130 KM/h because they have the wherewithal to control the car on a 6-lane open road, they should be allowed to. Safety requires holistic approach of accelerating, manoeuvring, decelerating and stopping a car. There are many drivers capable of doing higher than prescribed speeds and perfectly control their cars and there are many who drive below the limit in dangerous ways.

We have underage boys doing wheelies, drivers speaking over phone and moving between lanes, heck, some people don't even open ORVMs. We need more policemen on the highways with strong law & order. People should know they can get pulled over, fined or even imprisoned. When I was driving a C63s in the US, I was accidentally speeding above the limit - the cop pulled me over and I apologised, saying I just could not make out the speed and I did not check the speedo. He said it was just fine, he also mentioned that the car was perfectly in its lane and it looked like I knew what I was doing, but he asked me not to continue overspeeding. Overspeeding can be dealt with easily if we fix everything else.

[BHPjunkie]

Originally Posted by SS_36

Given the following:
1. Poor self-control of speeds by drivers of India
2. Little to no speed enforcement on highways
3. Large % of accidents on highways linked to speeding
4. Highest speed limit anywhere in the country is 120 kmph
5. We don't have Autobahns like in Germany
6. Cars have advanced ECUs today

Then why allow car manufacturers to make and sell cars that can go faster than 120 kmph? Can the Govt. not mandate ECU controlled speed limit of 120 kmph on all new cars? This can be retroactively implemented on all cars already sold, at least those that have the ECU capability.

Cars can still have large engines and be sporty to drive; the thrill coming from high accelerations (0 to max 120 only) rather than high speeds.

Welcome to T-BHP. You have a point about safety here but your suggestions will not resolve the underlying issues.

About poor self-control of speeds by drivers of India - This is more to do with one self and no external factor will be able to control this. There are accidents at 80 km/hr involving 2 wheelers who lose their life.

About little to no speed enforcement on highways - There is enough enforcement now days with speed cameras and highish fines.

About we don't have Autobahns like in Germany, you are comparing the best in the world with India. We aren't even close to developing nations like Africa in terms of road infrastructure.

More than the issues pointed out, its important to have stricter norms of handing over licenses. In our country you can get a license without even visiting the RTO, forget even a driving test. By increasing fines the ones who are benefitting are the traffic cops, higher the fine, more money in their pocket. Real issue of rash drivers does not stop by increasing fines. We need a system like developed nations where certain number of infractions lead to negative points on the license and after certain number of negative points license should be suspended until a re-test is done. All of this needs a lot of thought by the Govt and ensure corruption stays out, else everything will be bought by money.

[Blackwing]

Well at this juncture we have discussed it more than the Cabinet ever would.

So, for furtherance lets bump up to 150 kmph, as many replies are fixated on 120 kmph being the legally max speed and overtaking difficulties.

IMHO, why not even grade cars for their safe speed limits(based on crash rating maybe). Omni at 60 kmph, Honda City at 100 kmph and so on.

Or even more hypothetical - GPS based speeding tickets.

This is the paradox of choice(speeding), take that away & you question freedom(morality takes a dive).

[saisree]

There is no need for the Govt to inject anything into the ECU and there is no need to regulate/bump the speed. All that is required is to inject some common sense and discipline.

[TorqMaster]

We have a beautiful community like ours which is moderated. Moderation definitely helps in maintaining the quality and also safety.

Same way if traffic users are moderated, I believe, for the next maybe 15 years, our country's road accidents will definitely come down. We have access to much better technology now than, say, 20 years ago. We can use this to educate road users through training or enforcement.

As an example - Cap passenger cars at 100kmph. If the car maintains that speed for the next 5 minutes (and associated conditions to be met) then automatically increase speed limit by 5 kmph. Although the example sounds very black and white there would obviously be grey areas to solve.

Also as an example - have roads like German autobahns where speeds are capped at 150 kmph. We already have some world class roads being built which could be put to use.

The point being conveyed is roads in India are primarily for connectivity and not for convenience. As a country of 140 crore people with daily accidents on the rise due to lack of maturity and irrational behavior, the government has to moderate road users until this becomes a habit for the masses. Yes there would be still be road accidents due to other factors such as drunken driving, mechanical failure, driver dozed off etc But the majority of accidents related to speeding may reduce.

One more unpopular opinion.

[haskelerator]

IMO the major problem is that our highways are not access controlled and lead to strenuous driving experiences. On the point of dense traffic. More people should be made to take public transportation. All cars should be taxed high irrespective of size/displacement etc. and not just luxury cars. That would make cars truly a luxury and only enthusiasts would “waste” money on them. Everyone else can take safe public transport.

[lina]

Its funny this discussion is even taking place in a country where most roads have a speed limit of 80 or 100. Being in Bangalore and driving in South India I have not even seen a 120kmph speed limit board.

Literally and legally no reason for cars to be able to go over 120kmph. 100 itself is far too dangerous on most of our roads.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by tilt

Permit me to indulge in some reductio ad absurdum:
The limit is 80 like you recommend. If I drove at 81 I am technically overspeeding. Are you saying that the impact I have at 81 will kill me and the other guy and that both of us would have been saved had the impact been at 79 instead?

OK, so let me give you some more sarcasm using public safety.
- Vehicles are dangerous,
- Corollary to the above, no vehicle should be able to move any faster than a pedestrian.
- Most crashes in India are caused by women drivers, so women should not be permitted to drive. Source for this is the same source that cops use to claim speed as the cause for crashes.

Sir, your refugee in sarcasm and absurdity {by your own admission} is a reflection of an inability to accept that in a public forum there will be diverse views which each of us is welcome to agree or disagree with. But lampooning the views of another or metaphorically sticking your tongue out, indicates lack of cogency and maturity to accept that other equally valid perspectives can coexist. It is such attitudes that reduce discussion on social media to the nothingness.

[Gosha]

What we need is a minimum speed limit and a higher speed limit which is to be implemented in each lane of an expressway. Doing this will improve your average speed thereby reaching your destination faster without the need for driving too fast and as a bonus will be more comfortable and economical with more mileage.
So a person should be fined for going too slow or too fast.

[SKC-auto]

The arguments against having a speed limit seems to be, since below 120kmph does not eliminate all road accidents(0 accidents scenario)there should be no limit.

Then the below also holds good.
- Since proper driver testing does not eliminate all accidents(even in Germany), there should be no driver testing.
- Since proper road markings does not eliminate all accidents, govt should not bother with road markings.

As I understand the accidents increase exponentially as speed increases, it's not linear, also with more speed the severity of injuries also increases.

May be women are involved in more accidents, I don't know, but as I often joke with my wife, women are so incapable drivers that they mostly are involved in fender bender accidents, men are so capable drivers that they most likely eliminate one or two lives.

The point V.Narayanan and others are making is not about having 0 accidents, it's about avoiding the many accidents which happen at greater speeds.

I support speed limits of 100kmph if that reduces accidents by 50%(I don't have any data, don't think anyone arguing in the contrary has any such data ).

Also speed limits ensure I can chase the mafia kidnapping my child, if ever they want the few lakhs I saved.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by SS_36

Given the following:
1. Poor self-control of speeds by drivers of India
2. Little to no speed enforcement on highways
3. Large % of accidents on highways linked to speeding
4. Highest speed limit anywhere in the country is 120 kmph
5. We don't have Autobahns like in Germany
6. Cars have advanced ECUs today

Then why allow car manufacturers to make and sell cars that can go faster than 120 kmph? Can the Govt. not mandate ECU controlled speed limit of 120 kmph on all new cars? This can be retroactively implemented on all cars already sold, at least those that have the ECU capability.

Cars can still have large engines and be sporty to drive; the thrill coming from high accelerations (0 to max 120 only) rather than high speeds.

Im planning to buy the Buddh race track and want to drive my Verna at 175kmph on it.
Dont ruin my dream.
Driving on an empty flyover at 60kmph (Kolkata speed limit) is already affecting my mental health.

On a serious note, it can be perfectly safe doing 140kmph on an expressway and extremely dangerous doing even 40kmph while rushing to the work place on a crowded city road.
Its not about the ultimate speedo reading.

First let the Gov ban and take action against vehicles and bullock carts going down the wrong way on highways, then let them conduct highway etiquette classes with said pedestrians/cyclists who cross/use it too. Then we can talk about top speed.

On my first road trip after my daughter was born, I was quite nervous driving in the highway with her in the car. So I made a mental note not to exceed 70-75 kmph, which is well below my normal speed.

20 mins in, I begun enjoying the scenery a bit too much, it got so relaxing and mundane that I almost fell asleep on the wheel!! I immediately sped up. Full concentration mode back on.

[Bhargav7]

My views based on what I read so far -

1. Let us not compare Indian roads and autobahns. The difference is night and day. I definitely believe we will have 'German-level infrastructure' in at least a few places in India. But those days are too far in the future.

2. Also, let us not compare Indian driving skills to those in Europe and the US. Most Indian drivers learn driving in 10 classes at driving school. Most teaching techniques are about how to use the clutch, gear shifts, driving on an incline, etc. We hardly learn about lane discipline, maintaining a safe distance, driving below the speed limits, etc.

3. Let us not compare the speed limits (or lack thereof) of autobahn and Indian highways. In the autobahn, you generally don't have the crazy guy who cuts in front of you at 115 almost scraping your bumper, the pedestrians at a village crossing having a chit-chat on the highway, the occasional cattle that sleeps on the road, the street dog which runs across, etc. Heck, most Indians are not even aware of the seatbelt importance.

4. Speed limits exist across the world. In the west, they are implemented very strictly and speeding tickets attract hefty penalties. There is no question of having speed limits. The OP suggested a genuine way of governance using the ECU limiter - I believe it is only complementary for the other measures police take on governance and not a replacement.

5. Let us not discuss how some roads are good to drive beyond 120 or how we may have to go beyond 120 to complete an overtaking maneuver. As of date, 120+ speeds are illegal in India. Team-BHP has a very strict policy on speeding, dangerous driving, etc. Suggest BHPians read the Team-BHP rules before posting anything justifying 120+ speeds.

We can blame the infrastructure, other drivers, trucks, buses, bullock carts, etc. Yes, they are all genuine problems in India and we as a country are working on them. Until then, our driving, the rules, and the discussions et al should reflect the reality of our conditions. Let us not compare it with the west, yet.