[tilt]

You presume that safe speeed is the same as less than legal speed limit.

How are marine speed limits set? On what basis? I can tell you how road speed-limits are set - by pulling a lucky number out of a hat.

Cheers

[krishnakumar]

In a stretch of 1km on the Outer Ring Road in Bangalore, near HBR layout, the legal speed limit changes 3-4 times between 40kmph and 60kpmh. All the while, there is another board indicating 20kmph along the metro construction separator walls (on the fast lane).

I’d like to abide by the law, but really what speed limit should I follow here? This is just an example to show the unscientific way speed limits are set in India.

This problem is not just widespread in Bangalore, it’s across the country sans some well planned areas. Even highways aren’t devoid of such confusing limits.

This is only part of the reason to what Rohan265 mentioned (which are the major reasons), drivers just go with what is “safe speed” in their head.

I think a comprehensive review of traffic management is required but no government is willing to put in the efforts needed.

[Swapnil4585]

A different take at this one.

I live in Jalgaon. The roads inside the city are worse since a long time. We have embraced the situation and have taken it for granted that they won't improve for another 5-6 years. So, whenever someone 3 kilometers away say that they'll reach within half an hour, no one is startled.

The roads outside Jalgaon (Dhule - Nagpur NH, Jalgaon - Aurangabad SH) were also particularly bad till the March 2020 lockdown. The NH is however now a proper 4 laned highway (without the mention of any speed limit), and the SH is also a 4 laned concrete highway (also without a speed limit).

Now the average folk who drives his car (which are mostly 100+ bhp nowadays) in the city daily, is a dissatisfied and hungry man. So now whenever he heads out on a rare highway trip, he stands on the A pedal.

So, until this unquenched thirst to drive a powerful car fast on a well laid highway is adequately satiated, we won't see safer drivers.

[gomzi]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Coming back to topic, I believe it is partly a lack of any formal training, poor examination and virtually no law enforcement.

I don’t want to offend anybody, but my experience in India has always been that nobody takes any rules particularly seriously. Those who do are ridiculed, or maybe foreigners?.

No mistake, this cavelier and improvisation type of approach has advantages too. But on the road it is going to get a lot of people killed and it does.

So I think it is all down to attitude. If you are not too concerned about your own life, why would you be concerned about somebody else?

Jeroen

Exactly! The road users are mostly ignorant and/or don't care about rules AND the rule enforcers(Police) are also mostly ignorant and/or don't care about rules.
Police usually only remember few very obvious rules - helmet required on bike riders, seat belt required on car driver etc. when they have a target to meet or they get hungry

[Old_Salt]

Exciting thread in trying to draw parallels.
A critical piece of equipment that makes a big difference is the availability of brakes on vehicles and not on vessels.
These brakes give the road driver that much more confidence or overconfidence that he is in control and would be able to stop the vehicle.
Whereas at sea, trying to stop or even reduce the speed of a vessel would mean still traveling a considerable distance. That's why you need to plan how you will pass other vessels.

As Ernest King said, The mark of a great ship handler is never getting into situations that require great ship handling.
Ship handling is both a science and an art. Science because it requires knowledge of various forces acting on the ship. Art because it requires the skills of an experienced navigator to use these forces in his favor.

Apparently, all it requires to be able to drive a vehicle in India is some cash.
Cash to buy, both the vehicle and the license.

You can't buy a license to navigate but you can buy a license to drive.

[silverado]

How many of us get trained in proper driving schools? Maruti Driving school is one of the examples of a good driving school. Even if you get trained how many of us clear the test in legitimate manner? In Pune they rush you get the test done and clear everyone!( Of course candidates are made to pay extra for this )

This has been the major issue, and no one has addressed this for years to come.

Such a things ensures people starting driving on our roads are not well informed about best practices and do not possess the skills to drive well. This get amplified at highway speeds and on many occasions leads to fatal accidents.

I assume most commercial drivers learn driving from their peers and do not go to a formal driving school.

However with strict enforcement things are changing for better, just drive on Mumbai Pune eway now and you will notice majority of people sticking to speed limits.

[AntPaul]

The simple answer is the training one gets before navigating a ship/train/airplane vs a private road vehicle or a commercial road vehicle.

The learners license test is a joke, literally. The driving license test only checks if one is able to navigate a car under certain scenario. There is no training on road sense, manners, niceties, responsibilities, and duties. There is zero imparting of knowledge, training or testing before one is granted license to drive.

It requires impeccable patience, tolerance and integrity for a person to maintain a well mannered driving standard in India.

[Sidjohri]

In my opinion and from my personal observations over the years (not at the risk of mass generalization) flouting of rules (traffic and others) seems to be commonplace in India. This inspite of some folks being aware of them and also regarding repercussions that could arise for their violation. Does this give them joy or some sense of achievement? Maybe.

I was wondering if GPS enabled vehicle number plates (if and when they replace fastags) could actually be useful for automatically tracking speed violations (as per prevailing location wise speed limits) and issuing e-challans. Such systems could provide evidence based data for prosecution. And prove to be a big deterrence for (potential) offenders.

[VVN]

I am going to be blunt and say that it is the 'Macho' attitude that drivers think they have when they break rules or don't abide by them. I have been living in Mussorie for the last 3 years and the number of people who drive like absolute noobs on 2 lane roads is mind boggling. Coupled with the absolute horrific infrastructure on these roads and you are in a potentially life threatening situation everytime you get behind the wheels. Who in their sane minds allows restaurants and cafes to open up on 2 lane roads? I am trying hard not to generalise but the HR and UP cars are the worst offenders - Tailgating, driving with high beams, honking, using police beacons and sirens (Surprisingly cars with LTD stickers had these).

The only way to stop this is for the police to heavily penalise the offenders without fearing the babus. Unfortunately, we are regressing instead of progressing in this aspect and I do not see light at the end of the tunnel.

[07CR]

Originally Posted by Swapnil4585

So, until this unquenched thirst to drive a powerful car fast on a well laid highway is adequately satiated, we won't see safer drivers.

I completely subscribe to this. I can co relate a bit my driving habits over the years.

I started driving around 2014 (20 years age). My dad had a peppy 100 PS/200 NM Amaze at the time. It would attain triple digit speeds quite briskly and even go above quite fast. I for one preferred cruising at 120 KPH atleast (however, practiced safe yet fast principles). We sold it off in 2020. Bought a Ecosport S TDCI. It too can get to triple digit speeds pretty easily. Initial months my driving was quite similar to Amaze. Later I purchased my first car, Sonet IMT HTX turbo P in Feb 2022. Again I practiced same 120 kph principle, till about April 2022.

However, post that, I have tried maintaining lower speeds (80-100 kph) and engaged cruise control most of the times. I am now elated to say, this feels much more relaxed and I enjoy these drives more. I believe, the introduction of Cruise Control, speed fatigue(driving at high speeds) of nearly 8 years, drive experience, myself getting married in May 2022, etc. all have had a combining effect and I now enjoy driving in 80-100 kph, irrespective of the higher speed limit on the highway.

[SS-Traveller]

Interesting topic for comparison, and I am glad mariners have pitched in with concepts of safety on the seas versus roads, especially in India.

Originally Posted by Yash390

...why drivers don't keep the concept of safe speed in their mind. In marine navigation, we have a convention...
...
...any neglect in compliance can result in strict legal action, fines accounting to millions of dollars, forfeiture of licenses etc.

@Yash390, you've summed up the reasons why yourself, which I've highlighted in the above quote in bold. For marine navigators, it's not just their (and others') lives, but their livelihoods that are at stake. Mess up once, and you lose your job and income for a very long time, if not forever. Not so for Indian drivers, who can continue to drive, or take a cab to work. Even professional drivers can go back to driving their cabs and buses and trucks soon after a fatal / near-fatal crash, unless they themselves are dead! Suspension of DL is meaningless, because procuring another one is easy. Hence, (almost) no effect on livelihood.

Originally Posted by Rohan265

...I have a couple of ideas behind the 'why':

1. Lower risk perception.
2. Lack of a systemic approach towards safety.
3. Low/No fear of consequences.

Self-preservation is one of the basic human needs.

Very well summed up. In a country where the population's survival depends on wealth more than health, the urge to earn at the wheel by our commercial drivers by being the fastest from Point A to Point B, and the urge of the non-commercial driver to flaunt their new-found wealth in the form of how fast their gizmo-laden car is, is far more important than perception of risk or systematic approach towards safety.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

...it needs to decided who had the right away.
...
...partly a lack of any formal training, poor examination and virtually no law enforcement.
...
...my experience in India has always been that nobody takes any rules particularly seriously. Those who do are ridiculed, or maybe foreigners?.

How true. Formal hands-on driver training for safer driving is not an accepted activity in India. Set up an academy for race-car driving, rally and autocross driving, off-road driving, stunt driving and a multitude of automobile related activities that get one's adrenalin flowing, there are hundreds and thousands of takers. An intensive training course for being safer on the road between home and office? - Nah, I can drive without killing myself, so who are you to tell me how not to kill myself?

Originally Posted by tilt

You presume that safe speeed is the same as less than legal speed limit.

How are marine speed limits set? On what basis? I can tell you how road speed-limits are set - by pulling a lucky number out of a hat.

Not really. Read this thread (All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits).

Originally Posted by silverado

How many of us get trained in proper driving schools? Maruti Driving school is one of the examples of a good driving school. Even if you get trained how many of us clear the test in legitimate manner?

MDS is just as bad or good as any other driving school. Their trainers get paid a pittance, are not trained well enough themselves, the dropout rates of these trainers are extremely high, and what one learns from the MDS is just not enough for safe and rule-bound driving. Take a look from an old video - nothing's changed since then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAGX_M7mPcU

I assume most commercial drivers learn driving from their peers and do not go to a formal driving school.

True.

...eway now and you will notice majority of people sticking to speed limits.

Because crossing speed limits means a heavy penalty. Driving in the wrong lane carries no such penalty, and all expressways have cars dodging and overtaking each other across all lanes! Just as dangerous (if not more so) compared to crossing speed limits.

[kadanaJ]

Originally Posted by Yash390

As a navigating officer on cargo ships, I consider safety to be paramount in all aspects of life.
After seeing so many accidents on this thread caused due to inappropriate speeds, I started wondering why drivers don't keep the concept of safe speed in their mind.

Because sir, you are a highly trained officer who must have had to go through a rigorous training and vetting process before being given your position.

Car drivers in our country often don't even have to give tests to get their licenses.

The kind of massive ships you must be navigating are far harder to control, especially in rough waters and open seas. Your ships can't change momentum in the same way a comparatively tiny car with 4 tyres providing traction can.

I've seen youtube videos on how ships have to navigate and avoid each other. I am by no means an expert, but it seems to be a tremendously challenging job. Kudos to you for doing what you do.

The consequences of a collision between 2 ships would be absolutely catastrophic. Heck, it doesn't even have to be 2 ships. The Ever Given getting stuck in the Suez Canal is a great example of how badly things can go wrong.

Lastly, what thrill would you get in over-speeding a cargo ship? An average cargo ship travels at a speed of 20-25 knots (37-46 kmph). How much faster would you realistically go?

[Evyas]

I think this is OT, but relevant: I remember decades ago, having a long random discussion in college days, after watching too many ‘Back to the future’ & Blade Runner and Total Recall type movies, about how cool it will be in the future when we all have flying cars. And I was the only one who said are you nuts? If this is how our road traffic is, think what the future will be like - with cars crashing out of the sky and falling on poor folk below. Needless to say my line of thinking wasn’t appreciated but I still believe that’s the only thing holding back the future. Lack of common and civic sense

[Anikesh11]

While everyone is quick to find fault in drivers, I don't see a reason why cars can't come with physical speed limiter, why is there a need for any car to go above 120 KMPH on Indian roads
Manufacturers won't do it since consumers want fast car but governments around the world need to re think on the regulations
GPS based speed limiters are good option to lower speeds within cities

Why we leave the responsibility of 1 ton metal projectiles strictly on Humans is beyond me

[Akash86M]

Ships have safe speed because they don't have brakes and take their jolly time to stop, which depends on vessel is laden (loaded) or in ballast (no cargo), weather conditions to name a few.
Roads have speed limits as we don't want a Ferrari flying at 300kmph on a highway which is probably constructed keeping in mind a speed of 100-120 kmph and bikes/cars plying in wrong direction with high beam and dippers on.