[AjayJoshuaN]

I am not justifying over-speeding and unsafe driving here, but I think the main problem is only the upper limit of speed is considered while not much attention is being paid to the lower limit (not defined in most cases).

Due to this, lower speed limit violators make others violate the upper speed limit by frustrating them.

So there should be a change where "safe speed limits should be adhered to" instead of adhering to just an (upper) speed limit.

[pd1108]

I think age based speed limit would be an interesting concept, if at all it can be implemented. In most western countries, the insurance cover is linked to the age of the owner of the vehicle, and for obvious reasons. The speed limit would then resemble a bell curve. All the driver has to do, as a rule, is to put a placard on the wind screen showing his age.

[pd1108]

Originally Posted by AjayJoshuaN

I am not justifying over-speeding and unsafe driving here, but I think the main problem is only the upper limit of speed is considered while not much attention is being paid to the lower limit (not defined in most cases).

Due to this, lower speed limit violators make others violate the upper speed limit by frustrating them.

So there should be a change where "safe speed limits should be adhered to" instead of adhering to just an (upper) speed limit.

I agree. It is frustrating to encounter a driver ahead of you ambling along on the fast lane, often because he is busy on the phone. At these moments, zipping past is the most satisfying thing to do, and maybe honking at the driver as well

[Hayek]

In most parts of the world, driving too slowly on a highway is as much of an offence as driving too fast. Indian highways are dangerous partly because of poor road design (such as the bridge which killed Cyrus) but more importantly because of massive heterogeneity in speeds. Every time I drive to Lonavala, I find truckers in the right lane and middle lane traveling at 20-25 kmph, and slowly trying to overtake other truckers in the left lane at 15 kmph. Quite often the guy at 15 may be in the middle lane too. The lack of capacity on the Khandala Ghat stretch is solely because of these third rate over loaded trucks traveling at speeds that should be illegally low even on a country lane, much less an expressway. Unless you are as patient as the Buddha, you find yourself swerving between trucks to maintain even a moderate pace. If we had a rule that no vehicle that is not capable of maintaining 80 kmph will be allowed on highways, and had minimum speeds of 80 and maximum of 120, even with our existing infrastructure, driving would be far safer. Instead our cops set speeds limits based on the lowest common denominator. My driver who is ultra careful got fined for driving at 75 kmph down the Khandala Ghat (where they have imposed an absurd limit of (50 kmph). Net result, one loses respect for the law - if you are going to get fined ₹2000 at 75 kmph on an expressway, might as well drive at 120.

[tilt]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

*SNIP*


Not really. Read https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-...ml#post4677183 (All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits)

*SNIP*

I say yes really and you agree with me too - quoting you from an earlier thread on an almost identical topic.

Your'e right in the sense that peed limits are supposed to be set in a scientific manner, but in India (and I wager in many parts of North America) they're set using my method.

Cheers

[dsr001]

Difference between a car and plane/boat is the "feel". Car gives much more direct feel and involvement, as well as increasing/decreasing speed is relatively easier.

Another things is, most car drivers are non professionals and in case of anything only they themselves will suffer.

In boat/plane, more proportion are professionals, thus usually have more responsibility (people/cargo).

Originally Posted by Hayek

Net result, one loses respect for the law - if you are going to get fined ₹2000 at 75 kmph on an expressway, might as well drive at 120.

Sadly this is what I tend to feel, after facing challans for extremely minor deviations.

[dust-n-bones]

I would say comparing navigation rules of commercial ships and personal vehicles is unfair to begin with.

Any minor collision for a merchant ship would cost the operator in the thousands of dollars at the lower limit, in addition to downtime and scrutiny and risk of losing licenses.

Given the stakes, it makes commercial sense to have stringent guidelines, and bear the cost of training your sailors.

Private cars operate with way fewer risks - the world over. Which results in a more 'carefree attitude' to driving.

Instead, a comparison of personal (low value) yachts/boats and cars would make better sense. Youtube is filled with 'idiots on the road' videos from practically every part of the world. And as expected, you'll find corresponding videos from the canals of Amsterdam :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEFaGMwkcv4

[mygodbole]

Originally Posted by Yash390

DISCLAIMER : Long post, some people may find this boring

1. Whose responsibility is it to get out of the way ?
2. Who would be culpable if a collision, or even a near miss, occurred ?
3. Who should do what at what point to prevent a collision from occurring ?

You find the way to answer any of these, I am willing to listen, understand and adhere.

Making a law is easy, enforcing it is a different story.

I am not being sarcastic, just reiterating the difficulties in enforcement.

We are NOT law-abiding citizens, we are danda-fearing drivers.

[Mortis]

I guess boats and ships are kind of less agile and take longer to accelerate and decelerate in general plus it's harder to give support to an aquatic accident make regulations and enforcement stricter. Authorities as well as operators self govern themselves.
Also stricter more extensive and stringent training for boats vs cars makes a difference.
On the water as well if you notice non commercial private operators are mostly the ones that sail badly.

[Yash390]

Originally Posted by gomzi

At least where i'm located and people i've met/observed, a lot of people seem to be of the opinion that driving fast = good driving i.e. driving skill is equated to driving fast which is

Absolutely agree ! Even my own friends seem to think so.

Originally Posted by adi.mariner

To get a Deck Officer/Engineer's Certificate of Competency, you need to have certain minimum educational qualifications. Also stringent exams are conducted by the Marine Mercantile Departments before the Certificates are awarded. However getting a Driving License is very easy in India and you do not need to cross so many hurdles. So most of the drivers are not aware of the rules of the road, leave alone think about following them. follow them.

Yes sir, the strict licensing procedure is the most important factor, whereas a driving license can be easily obtained.

Originally Posted by warrioraks

Thank you for this interesting analogy. Please throw light on who typically enforces punitive action (fines, license revocation,etc) in the case of marine navigation. I am curious especially about incidents occurring in international waters which are outside the jurisdiction of a country. Also how is the enforcement rigour typically? Are most violators taken to task?

Violators are generally taken to court, involved in long investigations and are mostly sacked by the company or stripped of their licenses. I'm not sure about the maritime law side of things, as it is an entirely different subject. This is what maritime lawyers are for, in depth investigations and rulings.

Originally Posted by Rohan265

After conducting interviews of many drivers involved in road crashes, I have a couple of ideas behind the 'why':

1. Lower risk perception.
2. Lack of a systemic approach towards safety.
3. Low/No fear of consequences.

Spot on conclusion ! It is the general 'chalta hai' attitude that must be changed, and people should be made to realise that having the command of a vehicle is a very big responsibility, and not a joke.

Originally Posted by asmr

Those who do follow the rules are not just ridiculed. They are abused, yelled at, put on edge by constant honking from behind, aggressive close encounters by vehicles on the move and/or by the drivers after blocking the road & sometimes end up in the hospital or, worse, dead.

Haha, I am one of the harassed ones ! I don't mind being made fun of if that means me ensuring the safety of my car, my co-passengers and everyone around me.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

My daily ride to school was in an open boat fitted with an outboard engine, Suzuki , Yamaha etc - I don't remember it following any rules as such. I am sure most of the marine traffic in the world by numbers are comprised of these small boats with one operator at the rudder and won't have a clue about any rules as such. Anyhow , I think the purpose and intend of an average fellow going to drop his kids to school and then off to work is different from a cargo vessel, a race against time in whatever automobile they have at hand.

They definitely won't have any clue about these rules. For them, their boats are strictly a means of transport from point A to B or for catching as many fish as possible for their own profit.
For Indian drivers, every instance of driving means getting to the destination as quickly as possible, an insatiable thirst for an adrenaline rush.

Originally Posted by tilt

You presume that safe speed is the same as less than legal speed limit. How are marine speed limits set? On what basis? I can tell you how road speed-limits are set - by pulling a lucky number out of a hat.

No, not always less than the legal speed limit. I myself was fined on a 6 lane stretch of NH-48 for breaching the speed limit of 80kmph. I was in the middle lane doing 90kmph on an arrow straight empty road in Rajasthan and I saw a wild cop jump out of the bushes waving his hands aggressively. I pulled over and paid my fine. I have no problem paying a penalty for any violation. I admitted my mistake, paid the fine and went my way. I was doing 90 in an 80 because I thought it was safe to do so after analysing my environment. Would I do it again ? Maybe. Does crossing the speed limit always mean inviting danger ? I think not.
As for marine speed limits, there are no worldwide limits. Only certain narrow waterways have speed limits which are decided on the geographical factors and the limitations of the vessels involved are taken into consideration.

Originally Posted by silverado

How many of us get trained in proper driving schools? Maruti Driving school is one of the examples of a good driving school. Even if you get trained how many of us clear the test in legitimate manner? In Pune they rush you get the test done and clear everyone!( Of course candidates are made to pay extra for this )

My elder sister learnt driving in Maruti driving school. I have seen how her training drives were. The instructor was as untrained and careless as any Indian driver is.

Originally Posted by Old_Salt

Exciting thread in trying to draw parallels.
A critical piece of equipment that makes a big difference is the availability of brakes on vehicles and not on vessels.
These brakes give the road driver that much more confidence or overconfidence that he is in control and would be able to stop the vehicle.
Whereas at sea, trying to stop or even reduce the speed of a vessel would mean still traveling a considerable distance. That's why you need to plan how you will pass other vessels. As Ernest King said, The mark of a great ship handler is never getting into situations that require great ship handling.
Ship handling is both a science and an art. Science because it requires knowledge of various forces acting on the ship. Art because it requires the skills of an experienced navigator to use these forces in his favor. Apparently, all it requires to be able to drive a vehicle in India is some cash. Cash to buy, both the vehicle and the license. You can't buy a license to navigate but you can buy a license to drive.

Absolutely agreed sir.

Originally Posted by AntPaul

The simple answer is the training one gets before navigating a ship/train/airplane vs a private road vehicle or a commercial road vehicle. The learners license test is a joke, literally. The driving license test only checks if one is able to navigate a car under certain scenario. There is no training on road sense, manners, niceties, responsibilities, and duties. There is zero imparting of knowledge, training or testing before one is granted license to drive. It requires impeccable patience, tolerance and integrity for a person to maintain a well mannered driving standard in India.

Completely agreed.

Originally Posted by VVN

I am going to be blunt and say that it is the 'Macho' attitude that drivers think they have when they break rules or don't abide by them. I have been living in Mussoorie for the last 3 years and the number of people who drive like absolute noobs on 2 lane roads is mind boggling. Coupled with the absolute horrific infrastructure on these roads and you are in a potentially life threatening situation everytime you get behind the wheels. Who in their sane minds allows restaurants and cafes to open up on 2 lane roads? I am trying hard not to generalise but the HR and UP cars are the worst offenders - Tailgating, driving with high beams, honking, using police beacons and sirens (Surprisingly cars with LTD stickers had these). The only way to stop this is for the police to heavily penalise the offenders without fearing the babus. Unfortunately, we are regressing instead of progressing in this aspect and I do not see light at the end of the tunnel.

Aha ! Suicidal drivers overtaking on blind turns are in abundance. In a country with 140 crore people, there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Originally Posted by kadanaJ

Because sir, you are a highly trained officer who must have had to go through a rigorous training and vetting process before being given your position. Car drivers in our country often don't even have to give tests to get their licenses. The kind of massive ships you must be navigating are far harder to control, especially in rough waters and open seas. Your ships can't change momentum in the same way a comparatively tiny car with 4 tyres providing traction can. I've seen Youtube videos on how ships have to navigate and avoid each other. I am by no means an expert, but it seems to be a tremendously challenging job. Kudos to you for doing what you do. The consequences of a collision between 2 ships would be absolutely catastrophic. Lastly, what thrill would you get in over-speeding a cargo ship? An average cargo ship travels at a speed of 20-25 knots (37-46 kmph). How much faster would you realistically go?

Please don't call me sir , I am one of the younger members of this forum. It is a beautiful job indeed and the training does help a lot in carrying out our duties efficiently, which is absent in the case of obtaining a driver's license. Nowadays cargo ships hardly cross 20kts (which itself is about maximum for the majority of the worldwide cargo ship fleet) due to ever rising emissions, fuel prices and unnecessary wastage of fuel. Lastly, as everyone knows, there is no thrill in sailing at full speed.

Originally Posted by AjayJoshuaN

I am not justifying over-speeding and unsafe driving here, but I think the main problem is only the upper limit of speed is considered while not much attention is being paid to the lower limit (not defined in most cases). Due to this, lower speed limit violators make others violate the upper speed limit by frustrating them.

100% agree ! Presence of a lower limit will greatly help in streamlining traffic flow.

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

I would say comparing navigation rules of commercial ships and personal vehicles is unfair to begin with. Given the stakes, it makes commercial sense to have stringent guidelines, and bear the cost of training your sailors. Private cars operate with way fewer risks - the world over.

I won't say this is a direct comparison. This is just drawing parallels between navigating two very different types of vessels. Talking about risks and consequences, is safety of cargo more important than safety of human life ? Take a general hypothetical collision between two ships and two cars. Everyone knows which one would result in more injuries/casualties. My main aim of comparing this same parameter is to get to know why people act invincible on roads, where more of the world's population travels.

Originally Posted by mygodbole

You find the way to answer any of these, I am willing to listen, understand and adhere. Making a law is easy, enforcing it is a different story. I am not being sarcastic, just reiterating the difficulties in enforcement. We are NOT law-abiding citizens, we are danda-fearing drivers.

Yes I wholeheartedly agree with you. The answers to these questions should be in the MV Act right ?

[shankar.balan]

Said this before.
Will say it again.
If we Indians would simply respect and adhere to Lane discipline, many headaches will disappear.
Sometimes I find myself dreaming of a scenario where all roads are like slot car tracks or train rails, where the car simply cannot deviate!