[ringoism]

Originally Posted by UD17

I don't think these two are distantly related.... A seatbelt is given in front/rear, why not to use them, Why not drive within speed limits, How difficult it is to be in your lane, why sudden lane departure, why not use all rear view mirrors, how difficult is to avoid phone during driving etc. etc. I think all these are not linked with the automobile OEM priorities at all rather depend on priority of that individual.

So true. Drivers themselves most often create the risks/ dangers. Poorly marked roads/ construction zones / bad designs / pedestrian & livestock intrusions notwithstanding. I'll add my own pet peeve (since hardly anyone else mentions it and probably 50% of us even here on Tbhp violate common sense in it): unnecessarily blinding one another with high beams at night, a habit that on the basis of my travels/observations seems fairly unique to the subcontinent.

Originally Posted by MaheshY1

In a similar way, no amount of safety kit will make our roads safer if we have drivers with poor driving skills and unaware of the limits -- of their cars and themselves.

I see so many people busting their budget to get the Nexon or Altroz for a 5-star safety rating and keeping their infants and toddlers in the front passenger's lap.... If you can buy a 10 lakh rupee car, then you can certainly afford a 5,000 rupee car seat.[/i]"

Very fully agree, but I think so much more comes down to core attitudes, I daresay even beliefs.

First in the sense that even here in the threads we do see talk of "fate" (a.k.a. karma) coming up pretty often - argue against that and you get into metaphysics, may even be charged with the attempted deconstruction of an entire overarching system...

Secondly, in my observation, parents in many observable cultures/classes are practically expected to spoil their children, and are remiss to displease them in any way... So a kid wants to sit up front or hanging out a sunroof or with arms in the breeze, and cries/ throws a big tantrum for it? In my observation the little raja or rani gets their way far too often, even against a parent's better judgement. In my view, it really doesn't actually have much to do with the cost of a child safety seat.

Having said all this, I confess my own personal guilt - wife and I never even breached the question of child seats, and we've taken some long trips, too.

I grew up in a time when nobody used them even in the "advanced" nations, and am raising my kids in a region of another country where nobody uses them even now, fifty years later. We don't drive at highway speeds very often, don't really believe in fate, could have easily afforded a pair of ₹5000 seats, and never give in to tantrums, so why the slackness in this???

I guess because we don't personally know any kid who died from not having one, and it is thus too remote and theoretical a benefit? And the hassle and time involved getting in and out of the car each time when using them, and the fact of making the rear seat unfit for anyone else to use or share if we have two of them back there (vs. squeezing 4-5 into the middle row when the situation demands)... I don't know, I guess it's that mostly - convenience.

We know plenty of people who died of emphysema or lung cancer or diabetes or liver cirrhosis after making bad personal lifestyle choices - even people who un-helmeted died of head injuries in bike crashes. It is almost predictable in such cases. Maybe not so much here with child-seats and rear-seat belts - definite risks without them but odds probably in our favor in general, under our conditions at least. Here in the hills there are many times you'd probably be better off getting thrown from a car early, vs. staying with it as it fell/rolled some hundreds of feet down a cliff or embankment... especially if it ended up submerged. And we drive carefully / defensively ALWAYS - which does improve our odds without really compromising convenience.

Whatever, some risk/ benefit ratios are easier to calculate than others. For many people in many places there should be no question of using them. As for us - we and our kids survived, they are big enough now to be past the stage of needing them, and it is a question for others now.

-Eric

[d.j]

- The whole ecosystem isn’t yet willing to do so - instant gratification modus operandi by car manufacturers, they will make you focus and influence one more about the features of the car, ex - steering wheel, music system, big screens are few to name and the role of government agencies in deciding what is safe and what unsafe.

- Time is powerful then us and best of best machines at times wont fare it for.

Regards/DJ

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

This is an elitist way of thinking. Everybody wants to protect oneself and his family the best possible way they can. But, you cannot force that safety upon others. By enforcing these 5 star rated cars, we have deprived that scooter rider from getting more safe. The car which was already a stretch for him, has gone out of reach for him, he might probably die tomorrow on that 5 star rated scooter. just because of many disillusioned people amongst us. And yes, why just 5 star cars, why not 5 star 2 wheelers, why don't we create a storm that all 2 wheelers should be banned as they are unsafe. Why dont we stage a dharna outside toll operators office. Am sure you would have seen poorly designed roads, the dips and crests at flyover/bridges joints, which can lead to a car loosing grip and crashing. Because we are keyboard warriors! For that matter, how safe are people' houses... Here (in) Europe, its not just 5 star cars, there are older 0 star cars also which are running without anybody getting killed in them. That's because, the roads are F-L-A-T, the driving license exams include practical courses where they make you experience a 360 deg skid while making a turn/braking in wet conditions, the road infrastructure is super and you don't find 1 person, yes, 1 person, driving dangerously on highways. That's the class and training levels of people here. Try to achieve that, not just 5 star cars.

This is the best post I've yet seen on this topic.

There are very deep-rooted attitudes and beliefs at play here, most of them subconscious and strongly inter-connected.

I feel there are too many attempts lately by (indeed) elitists to apply shiny band-aids rather than to look deeper.

Ten years from now, let it not be that we applaud ourselves on having all 5-star-rated cars (like the rest of the world supposedly has), and "we" can stand proud that the likes of autorickshaws or non-ABS cars or whatever have been banned, while we STILL have numbskulls designing and corrupt contractors building roadways, police are STILL mis-focused on any enforcements they may choose to engage in, and the average person STILL is driving absolutely like hell.

-Eric

[diwakarmuthu]

I had picked a few and 'others' too.

Very often we see drivers with very poor driving skills leading to much bigger accidents. Unfortunately we need an extreme accident or incident to talk about safety and the need to be sensible while driving.

As a driver, I feel it is my responsibility to tell my fellow passengers to wear the seatbelts and it is not negotiable. Yes I get that strange stares and sly comments, but I care a hoot as I know giving them a warning is much better than not doing so.

I remember a few years back, I was driving on NH44 / NH48 roads at around 100-110kph (I generally do those speeds only if I see a open stretch of road) and out of nowhere I saw this guy in an i20 or some other hatch overtake me and slowed the car considerably without notice. Now with a BoF vehicle driving at those speeds require you to think and brake responsibly. That day my son was at the back seat without seatbelt, he refused to wear it that day. I had to brake hard and he pretty much landed in on top of my handbrake lever. Thank god, no injuries that day. But post that incident, I had to tell him why it is important to wear seatbelts. Tough lesson was required that day as we avoided a major injury and an accident. Post this accident both wifey and son wear seatbelts when we travel on highways. In addition, I keep a even closer watch on the road and avoid those nut case drivers.

Whatever education we provide, we find it difficult to change certain bad behaviors on our roads. Trucks driving at 30-40kmph with double the allowed load and occupying all 3 or 4 lanes making it difficult for other vehicles plying by, tipper trucks not having a cover for their tipping bay, overtaking from the left side where there is very little space or no space, honking incessantly even if they are highways, using high beams as if the roads are their own, and much more. Many drivers with the above qualities irrespective of education, I doubt if they are going to change.

One behavioral change, the government can think of is current day cars can share the driving data to the government without infringing on privacy, the government should use this data to see the no. of violations and if they deem fit, make penalties for licenses or insurance premiums. I know this would mean people who have been driving within the rules or regulations end up being tracked. But maybe it can be started for truckers or commercial vehicles and then see how it can be scaled up.

While we cannot lay the blame on drivers or their driving styles alone. The construction of roads and how they merge with state / national highways is a different topic all together.

Regards,
Diwakar

[neerajku]

Tough to make a guess on why others dont prioritize safety. It will be a reflection of probably my own thought.

[drive on]

Safety is a belief and an attitude, in that order. If we don't believe that 'uncertainties bound' and 'worse can happen to me or because of me', our attitude towards safety will not change. We will not prioritise it before the luxuries and creature comfort. Safety did come at a cost , in the first world when it was introduced and so here.Its just that level of safety that we are talking about is still being talked as a feature whereas else where it has become a given hygiene factor. Something as essential as safety should be worked upon ground up rather than trickling down from luxury segment to mass. May be regulations as six airbags will mitigate some amount of fatalities and ensure safety features being omnipresent, but the road design etc cant be answered through this.

[Anikesh11]

Human behaviour is largely shaped by how fellow humans around them behave, I guarantee you the worst of Indian drivers on road if transplanted to some foreign city will start driving like them in no time to blend in
All we need is some awareness and a very strict enforcement
Remember majority of the drivers in gulf countries are Indians, pakistani etc who come back and drive like lunatics here

[driver52001]

Tax paying so-called middle class gets ripped all the time in our country. Traffic enforcement is visible only in the big cities where you pay fine online these days. It has become like a privilege thing to drive in an area where traffic enforcement is proper. The minute you're out on the highway and small towns and the vast majority of villages, it's all goonda raj. Anyone who respects traffic laws in such a scenario would get nothing positive if something wrong happens as it's all muscles. No wonder politicians can't enforce traffic in the majority of areas - India is a land of villages - because it would upset voters.

[Samarth 619]

How come I always end up with majority votes whenever I vote on TeamBHP? Even last time I voted for Vehicle of the Year, turned out it was the Yamaha Aerox 155, the most game changing in my humble opinion.
Will I never be a minority?

This time my responses are:
Lack of awareness about safety and why it’s important
Not met with accidents in the past, so wont in the future / Accidents happen to others, not me
It’s all fate, if its our time then nothing can change that

See, its useless to blame government, they've done their level best in the democratic government. Helmet and Seat Belts are a part of the rules, and many more, that's enough. We the people don't support.
Money is not a problem for anyone who buys a vehicle.
Nobody considers themselves unsafe drivers so that's out of point.
Safe cars being turned to a pile of iron, this is not a regular thing, it only happens at high speeds so majority of India's population is out of this.

Speeds are pretty low in India for a vast majority, problem is how they just don't know how to do it right. They enter bigger lanes without looking for existing straight line traffic, they change lanes rapidly, pedestrians are also least respecting of the road, not to mention animals, and of course, roads are bad so people change lanes to avoid a bad patch, that's also a big reason.
Adding to it, general aparthy that's missing due to our education. Just 2 days ago I saw an Enfield guy going wrong side for almost 1.5 kms, navigating oncoming traffic just to stop at a place where they anyways had a divider, to pick up a lady. Logicless indeed, but I did wish to stop him and ask why.

I had huge expectations from the present central government when their first move in 2014 was to increase challans from Rs. 100 something to Rs. 1000 and beyond. RTO's still haven't changed all that much. I'll just try to avoid being political, but things can only happen in long term, when positive education is pervasive among all sections.

[impala]

Yet another reason - social pressure or feeling ashamed to be looked at as someone who is unusually cautious. I have heard a lot about what 'people' would say if I wear a helmet while riding pillion; especially in rural areas were everyone know everyone. I have seen this especially among youngsters like college students but many grown up are not better too.

On a positive note, over last couple of months, the company I work for is investing about awareness about road safety. They have self-paced learning materials, posters and videos on common area TVs. It's good to see a company taking effort on such a cause despite being a software company!

[darthvader001]

Why don't we as Indians prioritize safety?

Same reason why we don't prioritize hygiene. Things which are critical for our health and life take back seat compared to other things like culture, values, traditions, superstitions etc. It is very difficult for our citizens to change now. We can discuss all that we want here but nothing's going to change.

We got a huge lesson on personal hygiene due to Covid but no sooner than it is over people are back to old ways. When I recently visited Tirupati, one of the server in one of the restaurants there was touching a bunch of chapatis with bare hand to check the temperature. Likewise many examples.

So safety too. Nothing will happen to me, it's all fate etc. belief and faith makes them ignore the dangers.

Another shocking thing is that, Indians who stay abroad follow all the safety rules there but as soon as they step in India they forget them. Why?? I still can't comprehend this. Yes their relatives or parents in India might be saying " those things you keep it abroad and not here" but ideally they should be insisting their parents or others in India to follow the safety rules and make them do it right?

[Octane 99]

I would like to mention others.The person buying the unsafe cars like wagon r and i10 is upgrading from the 2 wheelers like Activa and splendor where they squeeze the whole family without helmet, so buying cars like wagon r are a significant upgrade in terms of safety.
As per my observation what we need is safe driving practices in India.
Feel free to add .

[John]

I went with "just don't care about safety" Having worked many many years on shop floors and project sites, I have first hand experienced this apathy towards safety, inspite of people being made aware, trained and being provided all the safety equipment. Typical 'chalta hai' attitude.

[irdevanand]

Originally Posted by nerd1200

Exhibit-1: i20 Nine has 6 Airbags to boast of apart from gazillion other features. However if you examine the sheet metal of the car, it's pathetic. Almost every panel flexes to a thumb press. Even with airbags I'm sure it'll barely get 3-stars if tested. Thing is if the whole car is a crumple zone, there isn't much a couple extra airbags can do.

Six airbags on a 4 star or 5 star rated car might make a difference, whereas the same can't be said for a 2 star or 3 star car. For example Kia carens with 6 airbags scored 3 star - the same as the other Kias with 2 airbags. The result might be same for 2airbag i20 (3*) vs 6airbag i20.






Regards
Dev

[Evyas]

'If only we had one key that would open all locks..'

In my limited experience I feel the issue is a mix of many factors, as in most things in life.

As individuals, how do we define safety, and what are our parameters for meeting that is a huge factor. Unless one is a sociopath/psychopath, no one wants to put self or others, especially family and friends, in harms way. But why do people buy cars without any safety equipment, or drive without wearing seatbelts, or cross red lights and redlines constantly. Is it lack of awareness, or is it a limited awareness of what 'safe' behaviour is? I feel it is the latter. More so since we use our own brand of logic and find what seems most sane to us - even the ones who make the most ridiculous choices!

Take for example smoking, which many years ago was considered 'safe'. It only took a massive campaign the world over and for governments and people and public and private entities (who banned smoking on premises) to get a lot of people to understand the dangers of it to yourself and others around you and to stop smoking.

I remember a friend of mine, when I asked him about the dangers of it said : 'all of us have to die, I'd rather die doing what makes me happy'. Now that is a mindset one cannot change because for him, the parameter of his safety was very different from mine. So I had to avoid meeting him to avoid his second-hand smoke.

Another one told me that his grandfather smoked till his dying day and was fit as a fiddle and his cousin died of a heart attack at the age of 36 with no such 'vices' so life is pretty random, do what you want.

And both of them, if you look empirically, are completely right in their own logic. But because we live in a society where there has to be a certain basic rule of law and safety, this is where governments have to come in. A public health and safety prerogative is on a government to increase awareness and appeal to a common ground logic of all.

So while we do have a lax sense of safety and our own bizarre logic of it, our governments also have failed us. And it's become an endless feedback loop.

After the untimely and tragic death of Mr. Mistry, the response cannot be 'we'll fine people who won't wear seat-belts'. Reaching out and talking to people is the only way forward. Fines will only lead to the ridiculous 'helmet scams' type of things, where people kept helmets on their arms and only wore it when they saw a cop nearby. A junior of mine in school, a sweet, smart kid I knew well, died because of this. The tragedy only more potent when we were told his helmet was on his arm.

I genuinely feel fines and punishment don't work. I've read enough research papers to know that even in the case of heinous crimes, threat of death penalty hardly dips the needle on crime statistics in countries where it is active, as compared to those where it isn't.

Fines for ridiculous 'offences' only lead to resentment and corruption. And taking a 'tough stand' does not negate your responsibility towards fixing the root problem.

A class monitor can punish you and call you out for bad behaviour. A teacher has to find out why a child was behaving that way and make sure he or she or they don't do so in the future. The more your authority, the more your responsibility.

Fix the roads, make the car makers make safe cars. How can a car be sold without airbags is beyond me, but we've all been there. I myself bought my first car without airbags! Thankfully among a select few now at least there is now awareness.

Yes, 2 wheelers are unsafe and roads should be regulated. Making cars safer doesn't mean making them more expensive. For most people in this country, buying a car is a dream. Even the ones who end up buying one (like we did for our first one) are more enthused by the possibility of owning a car, not a safety loaded car, if that puts it beyond our reach.

The difference of 1-2 Lakh is a years rent for most people, so don't think all people buy base models because they don't care. They can't afford to care is also an option. Like with everything in our lives, we are 'ram bharose' in this country, so why not one more thing with the car? Which is where governments have to reach out to car manufacturers also and find a solution. If you can incentivise EVs, why not safe cars?

Whether it was polio eradication, or before my time, the push for vaccination against smallpox, or even to some extent the 'masking up' campaign that happened recently, governments have always succeeded when they decided to reach out and talk to their people. We are not criminals in a prison complex, nor are we recalcitrant children. Treat us like adults, talk and convince us. There will still be some who will refuse, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to also be treated like we are all fundamentally unreasonable.

And on a personal note, we have to lose friends. Because 'he/she is like that only' is how we allow bad behaviour to continue since we don't want to lose friends. But we have to. Kindly, but firmly refuse to put up with unsafe behaviour of any kind. We have a tendency in our culture to respect elders or not upset the family members, especially those from the in-laws side. But we have to stand up for our beliefs.

Those who don't agree with some of our basic parameters of safety have to be politely told so. I had this bad habit of 'live and let live' until I realised that was not what the other person was applying to me. Him smoking in my presence or driving rashly when I am in the passenger seat is not an equal 'live and let live' scenario. One of us is uncomfortable with this and if it's me then I will bear the loss of the friend's company as opposed to loss of limbs or even lives!

We are all on the road to our various journeys and no one really knows where they are going. They might think they do but one startling life-changing event and you realise: the maps are all wrong, the directions have to change, but we'll get there. As long as we listen. Enjoy the ride. Whether you know or like it or not, we are all in this together. It's not a race. It's a drive. Be safe. Be kind. Don't judge. Help those in need. Smile. Hydrate.

'People don't thank god for cars..they only curse him when the carburettor gets choked' - Aldous Huxley

Peace be with you.