[RajeevSharma]

ABS and EPS are two features that have helped me on road when I have made errors. I do not know if safety ratings will test these features.

I would like to buy a car with all safety features and good safety rating but choices are limited in what we want and we end up buying one of the available option with less than what we desire.

[GeeTee TSI]

I think part of the answer is in the first part of the poll question itself. The safety score sets the bar in terms of meeting specifications of crash worthiness (structural, active and passive safety) at a minimum. Having further safety packs can at best have an incremental improvement in the score (if at all). For a layman who cannot extrapolate the effect of additional safety features, the NCAP score remains the simplest and most easily accessed benchmark without perception bias. Hence voted for #2

[ashishk29]

First off, these days you no longer have to pick one or the other.
There are a now a few cars that will give you both; High safety rating, as well as safety features.

Currently top of the list is Mahindra with XUV3OO, XUV7OO having 6 airbags, ESP, and a 5 star rated shell. I am guessing Scrorpio-N will also follow suite, however that is speculation at this point.

Now I'm not sure of the platform the new Brezza uses, but if it still carries the same previous gen platform, then you get a 4 star shell with all those safety features.

Soon enough, Tata will upgrade their cars to have 6 airbags in accordance with the new safety guidelines from the ministry.

I would like to point out though: Contrary to some of the opinions above, having 6 airbags on a 2-3 star car is NOT going to save you from side impacts all that well. The body needs to absorb a vast majority of the impact forces. Airbags are not designed to absorb ALL the impact. They are designed to soften what is left of the impact after the body shell has absorbed the majority of it.
So in the event of a side impact, yes, airbags would soften the blow. But the body shell will also let much more of the force through.

Now let's dive into some statistics.

Source: https://morth.nic.in/sites/default/f..._Uploading.pdf

Highways (both National and State) which accounted for about 5% of total road network
witnessed a disproportionately large share of accidents of 55 % and accident related killings of 61% during the year 2019. I would translate this as it being more likely to have a more severe accident on highways rather than city roads.

16% of all accidents involve cars/taxis/lmv, and of that 43% are caused by another car/taxis/lmv.

Now as for how the accident occurred, side impacts resulted in 10.8% of people deceased , 13% injured, and were 12.8% of the accidents overall.

Of the rest, you have head on collision as the highest at 19.5% of all accidents, resulting in 15% of overall fatalities, and 15.7% of overall injuries.

Now combining the other categories, i.e. hit and run, hit from back, with a parked vehicle, vehicle overturn, collision with fixed object you have about 27%. (Sadly 16% were unspecified).

So out of 84% total, you have a much higher probability of being in a head on collision, rear ended, or impacting other objects than a side impact.

Feel free to go through all the stats and coming to your own conclusions and discuss.

But my personal takeaway from this means that I would be putting much more weightage on body shell strength and safety ratings, than relying only on safety features with an unstable body shell.

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Safety ratings are not sacrosanct for the current year's production models, nor do they apply to all trim levels of a given vehicle. So a NCAP 3-star rating for a test conducted in 2019 may not remain a 3-star in 2022, since the assessment criteria are updated by the testing agency, and manufacturers too make changes to their cars over the years.

1. GNCAP ratings do generally apply for all trim levels since GNCAP standard dictates them to test the car with only the standard features. Which usually ends up being the base variant. For example recently Carens got tested with 6 airbags since it now offers 6 airbags as standard. (Still scored only a 3 though).
2. Unless the testing authority has explicitly changes the testing criteria, the rating does stay relevant. For example GNCAP will update their criteria this year. They have had the current criteria since 2017. Hence, any car tested from 2017-current has the same criteria, hence the rating is still relevant.

[prajwalmr62]

Oh boy, I answered without reading the below messages. I answered with Car with a lower safety rating, but more than just the mandatory safety features.

when I answered it, I was actually thinking about ADAS and other driver aids on smaller cars, not ESP and hill-hold. And that too on smaller city cars.

I assumed the question something like this, would you buy a small car with host of ADAS features, but 3-4 star rating?

not, would you buy a 7 seater 2 tonne SUV with or without ESP.

Should have read the discussion beforehand.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by ashishk29

I would like to point out though: Contrary to some of the opinions above, having 6 airbags on a 2-3 star car is NOT going to save you from side impacts all that well.

Sorry but structural performance in the frontal impact has no correlation with side impact. Case in point, the Brazilian Ford Ka had four stars in 2015 Latin NCAP (frontal impact) but when tested for side impact in 2017 had massive penetration of the barrier because Ford removed reinforcements in the door. On the other hand the old Mexican Chevy Aveo collapsed completely in the frontal impact but performed very well in the side impact.

A bad side impact structure could render side airbags less effective but we yet have no way to compare structural side impact performance in India because the GNCAP has only just started including side impact in the rating since this month.

It's also worth noting that in the frontal impact most of the score comes from dummy readings and other penalties of which intrusion measurements and passenger compartment integrity is only a small part. Even with good structure, problematic restraint systems could result in a less-than-ideal rating like the Honda Mobilio.

[jayanttalwar]

Safe car anyday!

For example -

A baleno with as many air bags would not be as safe as a polo with just 2, what would the airbags do if the entire car crumples with you inside!

A friend of mine in a 2014 polo had a collision with new swift dzire ZDI - the polo had a few dents on the door and bumper while the swift had airbags out but fluids leaking on the road bumper on the road and door almost fully inside! If the accident was at a higher speed the airbags would not do much !

[RubberGuru1113]

Originally Posted by ashishk29

First off, these days you no longer have to pick one or the other.
There are a now a few cars that will give you both; High safety rating, as well as safety features.

It's true, but the reality is that a lot of people who are safety focused go for vehicles/variants with a higher GNCAP rating with 2/4 airbags compared to a lower GNCAP rated vehicle with 6 airbags. Classic example is how someone would choose a Baleno over a Nexon, which if I'm not wrong, comes only with 4 airbags.

Originally Posted by ashishk29

I would like to point out though: Contrary to some of the opinions above, having 6 airbags on a 2-3 star car is NOT going to save you from side impacts all that well. The body needs to absorb a vast majority of the impact forces. Airbags are not designed to absorb ALL the impact. They are designed to soften what is left of the impact after the body shell has absorbed the majority of it.
So in the event of a side impact, yes, airbags would soften the blow. But the body shell will also let much more of the force through.

Originally Posted by ashishk29

So out of 84% total, you have a much higher probability of being in a head on collision, rear ended, or impacting other objects than a side impact.

Feel free to go through all the stats and coming to your own conclusions and discuss.

I'm not arguing against the stats, but one assumption you make is that side and curtain airbags are only for side-on collisions. They are also designed to deploy in major front-end collisions and rollovers (which typically happens when divider is hit). The curtain airbags are essential in such scenarios and would possibly help more than the vehicle's GNCAP rating.

It has been demonstrated beyond doubt that having side and curtain airbags do save lives -> https://www.iihs.org/topics/bibliography/ref/1858

But coming to the argument about GNCAP 5 Star rated car with 4 airbags vs 3 Star rated car with 6 airbags, I would sleep better knowing that I have all-round protection covering a majority of scenarios rather than being covered for the most likely scenario.

[tirumalavoleti]

Thanks for putting this question as thread.
Currently Indian manufacturers are completely split in the way you gave the options of this poll.
Example:
Tata Nexon which has highest safety rating does not have 6 air bags
Venue which has all the safety equipment is only 3 star (As of today)

It is very hard to decide which one to ignore. I had went through same dilemma and had to compromise on 5 star for 4 star with 6 airbags.

So strike a balance by not too much compromising

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by ashishk29

1. GNCAP ratings do generally apply for all trim levels since GNCAP standard dictates them to test the car with only the standard features. Which usually ends up being the base variant. For example recently Carens got tested with 6 airbags since it now offers 6 airbags as standard. (Still scored only a 3 though).
2. Unless the testing authority has explicitly changes the testing criteria, the rating does stay relevant. For example GNCAP will update their criteria this year. They have had the current criteria since 2017. Hence, any car tested from 2017-current has the same criteria, hence the rating is still relevant.

Not naming specific cars, but a vehicle with lower trim, with a single airbag / no airbag, tested in 2017 would have scored poorer than a higher trim with 2 / 6 airbags. The same vehicle (same name) has a completely different design, platform and equipment level today, and cannot be compared to the 2017 vehicle.

I wasn't specifically mentioning GNCAP when I said testing criteria change. It can be the ANCAP, Latin NCAP, etc.

To the OP: Understanding the relation between safety features and safety ratings is important. This would be an interesting read: https://www.ancap.com.au/understanding-safety-features.

[Raghu M]

Originally Posted by krishnakumar

My XUV300 comes with the Marazzo engine and I can say this, it’s delightful to drive!!

But considering you’re looking for a 7 seater with good credentials, why not a used Innova that’ll easily fit into this budget. You’ll get the Toyota reliability and those engines are built to last. It’s a very robust car.

Unless you are against a used car, that should be right up there on top of the list.
Needless to say, you can never decide without actually driving the car. And not just around the block. Insist on a reasonable test drive.

The XUV300 for us was a wild card entry. But after the test drives (and multiple test drives), it immediately felt like the right choice for us. Without a TD, there is no point discussing.

Same with me. The 3OO was a wild card entry. Just came out of nowhere as I hardly considered it as an option. The test drive was also done a bit reluctantly. But, after the first kilometer into the drive, I was blown away. It felt awesome and coupled with the fantastic interiors and build quality, I did not look elsewhere. The smaller boot was also not at all a deal breaker. I would not trade an unsafe car with bigger boot to a safe one with a smaller boot. Never!

[Turbolove]

This would depend heavily on my useage. If 80% of my use was in city traffic, then I would be fine with lower safety rating and more electronic aids, however if highway use is 30% or more, than a better safety rating for a stronger structure without a doubt.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

To the OP: Understanding the relation between safety features and safety ratings is important. This would be an interesting read: https://www.ancap.com.au/understanding-safety-features.

It would be a big mistake to apply consumer information issued by ANCAP to Global NCAP's Safer Cars For India research project.

The only equipment that could make a difference to Global NCAP's 2014 - July '17 ratings is:
-frontal airbags
-retractor pretensioners
-lap pretensioners
-front seatbelt reminders (adds to score)

For August 2017 - June '22 the only equipment that could make a difference is:
-frontal airbags
-retractor pretensioners
-lap pretensioners
-front seatbelt reminders (adds to score and is qualifier for five stars)
-four-channel ABS (qualifier for five stars)
-side airbags provided the car cannot pass the minimum ECE Reg 95 side impact (qualifier for five stars) without them but can with them fitted (no such case until now & since 2019 a similar test has been adopted for all new models sold in India). For 0-4 stars side airbags would make no difference and it is not uncommon for cars to pass R95 without side airbags.

Child occupant protection ratings for 2014-22 could be affected by
-three-point seatbelts for all seats
-ISOFIX anchorages
-front passenger airbag deactivation
-integrated child restraint

Equipment that could affect Global NCAP's 'Safer Choice' Award is:
-electronic stability control
-pedestrian protection technologies like active pop-up hoods

Unlike other NCAPs who update protocols ~biennially, July 2022 is the first major update to Global NCAP's SaferCarsForIndia project since it started. Other NCAPs' ratings are usually not valid for India.

It's worth noting that Global NCAP has very limited resources and their crash tests are basic pilot projects for emerging markets based on old Latin NCAP tests, so conventions of other NCAPs often don't apply.

[ashishk29]

Originally Posted by ron178

Sorry but structural performance in the frontal impact has no correlation with side impact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxZGudorY7c

1. Front impact force does end up travelling the side as well. Frontal impact may not be the full indicator for side impact safety, but it does lend an idea. Often in the form of door and pillar deformations.
2. Many of these cars were indeed tested for side impact as well. While the system doesn't currently provide specific ratings for side impact tests, one can quite clearly see the amount of damage incurred on the body itself.
3. One can't reasonably believe that a car that faired poorly in a front impact test is going to score great in a side impact one. If it faired poorly in the frontal, it's more than likely going to fair just as poorly in a side impact test.

For example:

The amount of damage a 5 star shell takes vs a 3 star in side impact:


How a frontal crash test throws a good amount of force along the side panel as well:

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Not naming specific cars, but a vehicle with lower trim, with a single airbag / no airbag, tested in 2017 would have scored poorer than a higher trim with 2 / 6 airbags. The same vehicle (same name) has a completely different design, platform and equipment level today, and cannot be compared to the 2017 vehicle.

I wasn't specifically mentioning GNCAP when I said testing criteria change. It can be the ANCAP, Latin NCAP, etc.

Most of the NCAPs share some common basics. Some NCAPs take some different things into account for the final score. For the scope of the current discussion I shall talk about GNCAP, since that is what applies to us.

1. A car with no airbags pretty much certainly gets a zero star rating. For example Polo originally got a zero star because it did not provide airbags as standard.
2. The case you are referring to did happen with the Nexon. They originally got a 4 star on their original model. They then upgraded the car, sent it back, and got a 5 star. Not that the GNCAP result specifically highlights this as:
"This result is valid for all Nexon units produced as from December 7th, 2018 (from VIN MAT627165JLP51255)". Meaning that we can have multiple safety ratings for the same car depending on a facelift, as long as it is run through the crash tests again.
3. Your original statement was "Safety ratings are not sacrosanct for the current year's production models" , followed by saying that the car or criteria could change.
4. However for a given model, that rating IS sacrosanct. The point here is that as long as there isn't a newer model, or the criteria haven't changed, the ratings are completely valid no matter when you buy the car. Which is the whole point. So for example, the XUV3OO was first run through GNCAP in 2020. It's score is still valid. Because neither the car nor the criteria have changed.
5. Number of airbags or trim does not improve safety substantially. Case in point: Carens. Same shell as Creta/Seltos. They got 8 points in the tests. Carens with 6 airbags got 9 points. Still a 3 star. Structure was still rated as unstable, because it was. GNCAP uses the trim with only the standard safety features for this very reason. Body shell is common across all variants.

Originally Posted by RubberGuru1113

I'm not arguing against the stats, but one assumption you make is that side and curtain airbags are only for side-on collisions. They are also designed to deploy in major front-end collisions and rollovers (which typically happens when divider is hit). The curtain airbags are essential in such scenarios and would possibly help more than the vehicle's GNCAP rating.

It has been demonstrated beyond doubt that having side and curtain airbags do save lives -> https://www.iihs.org/topics/bibliography/ref/1858

But coming to the argument about GNCAP 5 Star rated car with 4 airbags vs 3 Star rated car with 6 airbags, I would sleep better knowing that I have all-round protection covering a majority of scenarios rather than being covered for the most likely scenario.

1. I am not at all assuming that side airbags are only for side collisions. However, perfect example are Carens & Seltos. Seltos with 2 airbags got 8pts in frontal test. Carens with 6 airbags got 9pts in frontal test. Both were rated as unstable body shells. Meanwhile XUV7OO, XUV3OO, Punch, Altroz with no side airbags have 16pts. So side airbags do help in frontal impacts, but not as much without a strong shell.

2. Not sure what you mean by "help more than the vehicle's GNCAP rating". GNCAP rating aren't some arbitrary numbers. These numbers directly represent the forces as recorded by sensors inside the dummies in the car. It replicates real life accidents and measures the real life impacts. If a car has scored poorly in GNCAP tests it's not going to magically save you in real life accidents because real life accidents often tend to be much worse. I hate using anecdotes, but there are abundant examples now. For example that Seltos which basically got torn in half. Literally. Fatalities. Meanwhile look at the state of this car, and the fact that the driver walked away. GNCAP scores DO translate to reality.

3. I am not saying that side airbags don't work. They absolutely do. But, again, without a stable body shell they will not be able to mitigate as much of the impact. The IIHS study in question must have compared 2 vehicles of the same type, one with side airbags and one without. So given the same structural strength, obviously side airbags would help. However our comparison here is cars that have strong shell and no side airbags, vs cars with weak shell and side airbags. And that is what I was trying to highlight. Like I mentioned above, XUV7OO with no side bags vs Carens with side bags. Night and day of difference.

4. As I said, your conclusions are yours. I will sleep much better knowing that I am more than covered in all the most likely scenarios.

I find it interesting how two response to my post are literal opposites:

Originally Posted by ron178

Sorry but structural performance in the frontal impact has no correlation with side impact.

Originally Posted by RubberGuru1113

I'm not arguing against the stats, but one assumption you make is that side and curtain airbags are only for side-on collisions.

[Vkap257]

Thank you for starting this important discussion which is very much relatable in 2022.

In my humble opinion, the answer is - “It Depends”. I present you my 4 fingers -

1. The Pinky Finger - My Brother’s 2013 Santro Xing- The car has next to none safety features. It came with crumple sones from factory (maybe) and nothing else. My brother is in the cement business and he drives daily upto 120 kms or so daily on highways near Betul MP. The car is as unsafe as it can be on Indian highways in 2022, but still “safer” than a 2 wheeler crashing into a holy cow.

2. The Ring Finger - My wife loves her tomato red 2018 Tata Tiago. The car is famously 4 star rated hard and is a heavy hunk of Desi steel. However I feel completely “unsafe” in it!. Being a 2018 manufactured car, it came with NO airbags and maybe an ABS(?). I absolutely refuse to take the car on our monthly trips to Dehradun solely because of lack of the said airbags. Last month I was involved in an accident while travelling with my wife and was being driven by my father-in-law. His 2021 Ciaz was crumpled in the front and the radiator was pushed back considerably. Airbags saved me from scratches and bruises as I was properly buckled and braced myself for the impact. The first thing which I told my wife after catching our breath was “Now you understand why I don’t take Tiago on the highways?”. The fact that it’s weedy little engine takes 15+ seconds to 100 doesn’t help either .

3. The Pointy Index Finger - My father’s 2017 Elite i20 - His use case is strictly Delhi-NCR where the roads are wide enough for a quick dart to 60 in-between 2 respective red-lights. He is a rule-follower but also has a peculiar habit of not leaving enough room between his car and the car in the front. Thus given the relative low speeds but poor follow-distance, I feel that the 2 airbags and ABS of the i20 are sufficiently “safe” for him in case of any mishap.

4. The Sore Thumb - My 2021 Creta SX (o) diesel manual. This is the car which sits squarely in the realm of our current discussion. Yes it is a 3 star rated car. But while buying the car, I was looking for the perfect blend of features, luxury and low-ish cost. Hence Even after paying almost 20 big ones, I chose a manual as it was a top level trim but still cheaper than the automatic trim by a good 1.5 lakhs. This gave me all the bells and whistles along with a stonking diesel whose leash is in my full control via the manual gearbox. The acceleration along with the turbo whoosh is addictive. Also, being the top SXO trim had the inherent advantage of having 6 airbags, ABS,EDB,TCS,ESC and often under-rated rear disc-brakes which drops the anchor hard. This makes me feel “safe” and confident while doing triple digit speeds on the beautiful Delhi-Meerut expressway. But I am not a complete idiot and always keep a 3 car-length distance between myself and the car ahead of me.

Hence the “safest” car in my garage is arguably “very un-safe” and I am looking to replace it with an Altroz.

[RubberGuru1113]

Originally Posted by ashishk29

Number of airbags or trim does not improve safety substantially. Case in point: Carens. Same shell as Creta/Seltos. They got 8 points in the tests. Carens with 6 airbags got 9 points. Still a 3 star.

Meanwhile XUV7OO, XUV3OO, Punch, Altroz with no side airbags have 16pts. So side airbags do help in frontal impacts, but not as much without a strong shell.

Like I mentioned above, XUV7OO with no side bags vs Carens with side bags. Night and day of difference.

Numbers like "9" and "16" are academic and would offer little comfort in the face of serious head injuries.

I'm linking the 5 Star Nexon's GNCAP video here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5njR2JH7uo

I have taken screengrabs from the above Nexon video and corresponding grabs from the Carens video. If you watch the Nexon video, there is a sharp impact of the driver seat dummy's head on the driver's side window/B Pillar between 0.25~0.29.



Whereas the same impact is cushioned by the curtain airbags on the Carens (watch 0.14~0.18).




I'm sure there is a reasoning behind "9" and "16", but on watching the video it is obvious here that a 5 star rated body shell without curtain airbags is not protecting the impact of the driver's head onto the window whereas any vehicle with curtain airbags would.

For good measure, here is a screen grab from the XUV700 test where there is again a sharp impact of the back of the driver dummy's head with the B Pillar