[Keeleri_Achu]

Take a look at the curtain airbags. I think they're kept just for the sake of marketing material. They're not even covering the entire window area. I know something is better than nothing. Even then, I seriously doubt their effectiveness. Poor effort Kia.




US spec Seltos for comparison.



I think we should be wary of such janky solutions if and when the mandatory 6 airbag rule come into effect.

[hydraulicsteer]

It is high time that these new age car reviewers mushrooming on the internet highlight such critical safety ascpects of the car too rather than just focusing on gimmicky features. Criticise them, make fun of then, turn people away from buying a unsafe car and create awareness. Lot of folks turn up to these online reviews before making a purchase decision. Don’t let these ‘make the reviewer happy’ fully paid invites to lavish launch events forge biasness.

[jalex77]

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

Really concerned to see how badly the A pillar and driver door deforms upon impact...

..PS: Did anyone notice, the Carens most certainly toppled post side impact test:

Attachment 2323931

I felt the same thing about the A pillar and driver door giving in so easily.

Then about toppling over, same thing happened with another so called 5 star rated MUV in its GNCAP crash test. And my question here is why are they editing out the toppling part in the video? Isn't it a matter of concern for safety?
They also gave the Triber 4 stars (a stronger and safer car than even the Marazzo according to GNCAP!)
Has anyone ever noticed how close the third row seat headrests are to the rear window of the Triber? Imagine what happens to the third row passengers of the Triber in a minor rear end shunt.

After seeing the Carens end up that way in the crash test and the GNCAP ratings it scored still, I now seriously doubt the credibility of GNCAP.

[shancz]

Not surprised with the result at all.
If Hyundai/Kia were really putting some serious effort into strengthening the structure we would've been inundated with ads by their media cell. Their efforts have been adhoc and non intrusive like the curtain airbags(still welcome).

What was surprising, like others have said, was to see the A pillar getting bent. Has been a long time since I saw this even in lower rated cars.
This hammers home the point of stars not equal to strength.

Also brings to focus the need to understand how the star ratings work in GNCAP and reminds us to check out the incredible effort being put in explaining it by (Understanding Global NCAP's new crash tests for India in 2022)ron178.

Since we're talking about Hyundai/Kia and their body shell would also like to point towards some informative threads on the topic(in case anyone missed) :

- (Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?)RSR

- (Kia Seltos body structure facts & comparison with the Hyundai Creta)travelpanthi

[ron178]

Originally Posted by jalex77

The same thing happened with another so called 5 star rated MUV. And my question here is why are they editing out the toppling part in the video? Isn't it a matter of concern for safety?

In the protocols of ECE Regulation 95, the regulatory side impact conducted on the Carens, there is no penalty for tipping over. Since there is only a single EuroSID on the driver's seat, dummy readings usually remain unaffected by rollover.

It's not just Regulation 95, even in graded consumer-testing side impacts like Euro NCAP's test with the new, heavier AE-MDB barrier, there is no penalty for tipping over.

This Ford for example scored the maximum available 16 points in Euro NCAP's side impact, tested at the same laboratory as the Carens and with the video edited out in the same way:

https://youtu.be/5p7qVSg_6-E

At the end of the day it is a laboratory test with a rather large focus on repeatability, and covers only a small fraction of crashes, and that is something consumers need to keep in mind while considering any safety ratings, even more so for Global NCAP because it is a programme for emerging markets and they have limited resources and until yesterday did only a single test.

Originally Posted by jalex77

They also gave the Triber 4 stars (a stronger and safer car than even the Marazzo according to GNCAP!)

Crash test ratings cannot be compared across different size classes. The test represents two similar cars crashing offset approximately 55km/h-to-55km/h. Even in the test, the Marazzo performed better than the Triber in terms of overall score, mostly because Mahindra demonstrated that similar protection would be provided to occupants of different sizes and those sat in different positions. This is according to 2011 Euro NCAP kneemapping provisions, possible only when there are no structural penalties applied (not the case with the Triber).

Originally Posted by jalex77

Has anyone ever noticed how close the third row seat headrests are to the rear window of the Triber? Imagine what happens to the third row passengers of the Triber in a minor rear end shunt.

That is correct, but none of the consumer safety tests worldwide place a dummy in the third row for any of the full-scale crash tests. It is a limitation, yes.

Originally Posted by jalex77

After seeing the Carens end up that way in the crash test and the GNCAP ratings it scored still, I now seriously doubt the credibility of GNCAP.

The Carens' A-pillar and steering column movements were probably below the limits to be penalised, much like most other cars launched after the Government introduced minimum legislative crash tests, from the S-Presso to the XUV700.

The symptoms of buckling etc. are only symptoms of instability, i.e., loss of confidence that structural performance would be repeatable across different Carens units or in a slightly more severe crash, and that is why the chest score is penalised by a point (see 3.2.1.2 in the GNCAP's assessment protocols)

If it helps here is a Toyota Avensis, rated 2015 five stars by Euro NCAP, with a stable passenger compartment in the frontal offset test:


The major reason for the Carens' loss of points still remains excessive movement of the pedals, much like the Ertiga for example, which can cause disabling injuries. In both cars parts of the body critical to life were reasonably well-protected, which is something to keep in mind before believing statements like 'x manufacturer is playing with the lives of Indians' (frequently seen on Twitter for example). Both cars have optional Electronic Stability Control not available on the Triber and Marazzo, which is a very important technology that can help avoid crashes. The Triber and new Ertiga have optional side body airbags, and the Carens even head airbags. Both of these are life-saving technologies, and not having them is probably a more serious problem that some pedal intrusion in the GNCAP's test.

[vijaykr]

Originally Posted by ron178

At the end of the day it is a laboratory test with a rather large focus on repeatability, and covers only a small fraction of crashes, and that is something consumers need to keep in mind while considering any safety ratings, even more so for Global NCAP because it is a programme for emerging markets and they have limited resources and until yesterday did only a single test.

The major reason for the Carens' loss of points still remains excessive movement of the pedals, much like the Ertiga for example, which can cause disabling injuries. In both cars parts of the body critical to life were reasonably well-protected, which is something to keep in mind before believing statements like 'x manufacturer is playing with the lives of Indians' (frequently seen on Twitter for example). Both cars have optional Electronic Stability Control not available on the Triber and Marazzo, which is a very important technology that can help avoid crashes. The Triber and new Ertiga have optional side body airbags, and the Carens even head airbags. Both of these are life-saving technologies, and not having them is probably a more serious problem that some pedal intrusion in the GNCAP's test.

I definitely don't justify Carens' poor crash test ratings since there are other cars sold in India that have cleared such tests already. But as you mention, we should not discount other provided safety features totally as well. Yes, structural stability is a must, but in the unfortunate situation of being in a crash, you would want any/all available safety mechanisms to work and reduce the severity to life & limb.

I sense mine will not be a popular viewpoint here. But though I have never owned a Kia or Hyundai to date, from all my test drives what stands out is the amount of features these two companies cram into their cars. Their day to day ease of use makes for a compelling value-proposition. As many on this thread have pointed out, small wonder that their cars continue to be chart toppers or near the top in the CSUV/MUV segments though their crash results are nothing to rave about.

@ron179, I am grateful for your posts on safety regulations and the in-depth information you continue to share in this area. I am a fan and this definitely is helping increase my awareness.

[whitesportz 1.2]

They need to construct Carens on a global Kia platform like maybe on which the Sportage hybrid is based. It will obviously bump up the price to 30 Lakhs plus but that's the price one has to pay for a strong body shell. Otherwise its always going to be 3 stars. Quite pathetic to be honest. Just invest in Tiguan Allspace if you want a safe 7 seater.

MOD NOTE : Please capitalize where required, would be a good idea to visit our Posting Etiquettes thread. Thanks.

[gpagedar]

Originally Posted by ron178

At the end of the day it is a laboratory test with a rather large focus on repeatability, and covers only a small fraction of crashes, and that is something consumers need to keep in mind while considering any safety ratings, even more so for Global NCAP because it is a programme for emerging markets and they have limited resources and until yesterday did only a single test.

As rightly pointed out, all conditions can’t be simulated in a crash test. Also, there are many instances of cars having good ratings not deploying airbags since the actual situation did not trigger the sensors/actuators. One such instance is posted by a fellow BHPian -

Originally Posted by Rahulbarik

Hello, My name is Rahul and i belong from Kolkata. I am new to this forum and would be my first post here.
Unfortunately, i will not be able to start my journey in team-bhp on a happy note as i have recently lost my 2016 Ford Ecosport 1.5 tdci Titanium + in an almost fatal crash. Yet luckily, i lived. And lived to tell the story.

While we do try to mitigate the outcome of such crashes by buying safer cars what seems to be missing is a serious effort on the part of law makers and enforcers to bring discipline in the way we drive and conduct ourselves in the road. Very often we have seen-

- Vehicles being driven on the wrong side of the road
- People driving under the influence of alcohol
- Incorrect overtaking manoeuvres, not keeping enough distance while overtaking
- Vehicles and pedestrians cutting across the path of another vehicle
- People talking on mobiles while driving
- Pedestrians walking on the roads talking on mobiles being totally oblivious to traffic around them
and many, many more.

So while we would like to buy safe/r cars the authorities should address the above issues. And not just looking at limiting speed on highways or adding speed breakers in towns.

While on the topic of safer cars, should car manufacturers offer safety features and airbags as optional add-ons for all trims. So someone not needing or wanting the top trim can still get the safety features.

Of course, this would reduce the profits of the manufacturers but would earn the respect of the buyers. Or is it just wishful thinking.

[thiagust]

Originally Posted by GTO

Can any safety expert please provide pointers on how the Carens did versus other Kias & Hyundais?

I love the Carens as a package, but am deeply saddened that the Korean siblings fail to sell 5-star safety cars in India, when Mahindra & Tata do so with such vigour. I had expected Hyundai & Kia to wake up & improve matters after earlier GNCAP embarrassments.

I really was looking at carens as my next upgrade. Don't know what to do now

[pandabear]

Originally Posted by Keeleri_Achu

Take a look at the curtain airbags. I think they're kept just for the sake of marketing material. They're not even covering the entire window area. I know something is better than nothing. Even then, I seriously doubt their effectiveness. Poor effort Kia.

Great spot buddy


Hope the new regulations take into account penalties for intentionally substandardizing safety features to cut cost. Also cars should not be allowed to have third row seats if curtain airbags do not cover the third row. I need not even mention proper three point seat belts for all. Lap seat belts should be banned

[ron178]

Originally Posted by Keeleri_Achu

Take a look at the curtain airbags. I think they're kept just for the sake of marketing material.

The front curtain airbag not extending far enough forward is common in some European cars (in the US manufacturers improve coverage because of the IIHS' small overlap test).

I am more worried about the coverage of the rear airbag. It does not look like it would protect an adult's head in a lateral impact. Does the Carens have a sliding second row?


Carens


2013 European Toyota Auris for reference

Of course, this is a very naive way to look at it, we would need someone to do a Euro NCAP head protection device assessment, but it looks like Kia might have just reused the curtain airbag from the Sonet!

[ags82]

This is really sad but not unexpected at all. Only we here in TeamBHP worry about this result. For KIA it's business as usual. Perhaps they may even over sell because they know 'features' outrank everything else. Waiting to see the monthly car sales reports for the upcoming months. I bet the numbers for Carens won't drop - not one bit!

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by GTO

I love the Carens as a package, but am deeply saddened that the Korean siblings fail to sell 5-star safety cars in India, when Mahindra & Tata do so with such vigour. I had expected Hyundai & Kia to wake up & improve matters after earlier GNCAP embarrassments.

Kia seems to only want to pay lip service to safety. Load up the model with equipment but skimp on the engineering. Heck, even the curtain airbags are way too small as pointed out in this thread.

[CommitTran]

Originally Posted by GTO

I love the Carens as a package, but am deeply saddened that the Korean siblings fail to sell 5-star safety cars in India

Carens was perfect logical upgrade from my diesel Ertiga. I would have blindly brought it trusting Kia to give me a safe premium car but by God's grace, Seltos's crash ratings were out and I was sure that Carens will perform the same.
Carens is such a good package that even if they increase price by say 1-1.5 lakh for each variant and then gives a 5 star rated car, I will be more than happy to buy it.
IMHO all cars which are not budget oriented should definitely be 5 star rated. A customer paying 20 big ones can pay 21-22 big ones for a safer car.
Just because there is less awareness among general people does not redeem car manufacturers bad deed of releasing unsafe cars.
These companies only understand the language of money and are oblivious to other things. Till the time their sales figures gets impacted poorly due to poor safety ratings, they will keep on selling cars which gives false sense of safety.

[thiagust]

Originally Posted by The Alchemist

I was expecting this since Carens is based on the Seltos platform, which itself was rated unstable. I wasn't recommending Carens to anybody due to the same reasons.

Kia & Hyundai are continuing to re-iterate that they don't have any real commitments to safety outside the marketing features and jargon. The damage to A-pillar and door panel is too much to digest considering the car was doing only 64 kph. (That is equivalent to 2 cars colliding at 50 kph with 40% frontal-offset). Imagine a collision at slightly higher speeds!

The following statement from the Global NCAP SecretaryGeneral is thought-provoking!



It looks like the safety of the Indian people is not a concern to Hyundai and Kia even in 2022!

Pretty damning verdict in fact then. Kia for all it's PR efforts , doesn't seem to have a good product to start with.