[rrsteer]

A direct result of this news. Kia Sonnet will be dumped.


PS: Learned members there is a difference between being a moderator and being an editor.

[marszeus]

Originally Posted by Lowflyer23

I request the mods to close this thread as I believe we had quite a comprehensive discussion and now there are personal attacks being done and blaming on mods and others going on. Heck, even some members are......
Lowflyer23

+1 on the request to Mods to close this thread. Enough has been said and discussed and I believe there is nothing new to be added further. This thread has been highlighted enough and ample time has been given to members for sharing their thoughts.

Past few days, I’m reading all the post and healthy discussions being made, but I feel now that few posts are veering off-topic, personal attacks and some even pulling Moderators into it.

Also, no amount of brand bashing here is going to affect the sales of Maruti, Hyundai and Kia, unless there is a change in car buyers mindset. I’m confident that upcoming monthly sales will prove me right.

Some advice I received when I recently bought a car is “stay away from TATA for poor service, buy a Hyundai for features or a Maruti for resale value”. No one insisted on safety aspects. This is my experience and hope it will be same for guys who are basically from towns/villages where awareness of safety is almost non-existent.

I went ahead and booked Nexon as it met my requirements and I feel I made an informed decision considering all aspects with safety being a priority.

Going forward, it must be our responsibility should spread awareness to friends and relatives on safety aspects as an important factor in deciding car. Request prospective car buyers to ask on safety aspects of cars from the dealers. Unless a majority of car buyers ask, car manufacturers won’t make them and will continue to cut costs. (Agreed, this didn’t stop TATA and Mahindra from providing safer cars. Salute them for taking an initiative)

Equally important, we must stress our friends/relatives on the importance of driving responsibly and wearing a seat belt or helmet (with straps tightened) not only in cities but wherever they drive. Only then can we can have safer roads in India.

Request Mods not to approve this post if this off-topic or if it adds no value

[cuboid]

Meanwhile, in an alternate universe, in the days since this thread started, Maruti has sold ~15k of these tin cans and Hyundai-Kia was close behind with around 7-8k of deadly cars.

Cars in India is not a necessity, it's an aspirational product to show-case your status. So size, bling, eye-catching features, touch-and-feel points and sunroof matters to the average car buyers, and they would continue to do so. As someone said, hang a banner in front of Maruti, Hyundai, KIA showrooms with the NCAP results - and nothing will change. Heck, people might think 3 stars Seltos is a good thing and buy it more.

Guys, come on!

Leading car manufacturers have what sells. it's not a car manufacturer's prerogative to sell "safe" cars, that honesty is long gone. Now it is only to "sell" cars. All businesses are here to make a profit for the share-holders, no exception. If they can make it with the products they have, then why bother to change.

There are 3 parties in any market - the sellers, the buyers and the regulators. As long as the buyers are ready to buy unsafe products, and regulators don't enforce safety, the markets would be full of unsafe products from sellers. Food products, cosmetics, drugs, cars - it is same thing. In a country where honesty in business does not exist in any field, why should the car manufacturers be any different.

This is where enforcement comes in. It's the not the inner conscience or drive of the company which makes it to tow the line. It is the line itself and the fear of penalty if it doesn't. In our country, where life is cheap and money is costly, there is neither a line, nor a penalty. So walk whichever way you want.

We are barking up the wrong tree here. Ironically, we won't get anywhere close to the right tree either, and even if we can we can't change a thing. As we keep on typing on this thread, the manufacturers are secure in their lobbying power to not have any sort of reform in the Indian automotive scene.

I know I sound pessimistic, which is true. The only hope I have is that things might change, even if painfully slowly - and that change be seeded here in this forum.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by swarnava.ch

Anyways, now this thread is posted on Facebook by TBhp Mods.

And just to clarify, the naysayers on this thread had nothing do with it, nor our conversations of the last 12 hours.

The FB post was scheduled yesterday - (notice the "18 hours ago" text). All our FB posts are scheduled in advance and you'll see most top hot threads make their way there.

[skarthiksr]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

What Autocar reported - Global NCAP’s test report states that on impact, the Seltos’ structure and footwell area were both borderline ‘unstable’, and that the bodyshell was not capable of ‘withstanding further loadings’.
What NCAP report states - The bodyshell was rated as unstable and it was not capable of withstanding further loadings. Footwell area was rated as unstable.

If you had intended to mean that Autocar added 'borderline' aspect, it is only partially true. Because, Global NCAP did report 'borderline unstable' on their social media summary for structure. However, it did didn't call out footwell area as borderline as claimed by Autocar which is wrong.

[searacer932]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Top end prices of these cars from Bangalore -

SPresso - 6.16 lakhs.
i10 Nios - 10.08 lakhs.

Kia Seltos - 21.38 lakhs!

Now you can see why BHPians are shocked with the Kia more than any other car!

TATA Tiago Base Variant On Road Price in Bangalore - 5.67 lakhs.

It has 4 Stars GNCAP safety rating.

If a base Tiago can get 4 stars then what's preventing MSIL from achieving the same? Let's not attempt to normalize the poor safety rating of SPresso just because it's a cheaper car. No life is cheap!

[BoneCollector]

This thread is on fire and rightly so.

I'll come to case of Hyundai. About a month back, I had posted (Hyundai HB20) regarding the crash test of HB20 done by Latin NCAP where it dropped from 4 stars to 1. So is it that Hyundai has dropped the quality of car on sale in 2020 from that of 2019? Is the case similar here?

India definitely needs it's crash test program to come alive soon. All cars must be tested. All manufacturers claim that they've tested their cars at their own crash testing facilities. So why don't they make the results public?

[GipsyDanger]

Originally Posted by RaghuVis

Cross posting from another thread.

Few members wanted Team-bhp to take away "car of the year" award from Kia Seltos. For reference, below are the crash rating of all "team-bhp car of the year" over the years! As I mentioned in that page, lets stick to be reasonable discussions please.

It's not just the mediocre safety rating that really makes me reassess the worthiness of our praise for the car, sir.
The alarming brake failure rate and Kia's totally apathy towards the plight of the owners is what grinds my gears.

For me it's up there with some of the most infamous automotive scandals like dieselgate, Pinto incident, Audi's unintended acceleration incident etc. maybe it's too early to call them out for no recalls, but still.

As for the previous winners, to be fair, one has to take time into context. We weren't this vigilant about safety until GNCAP first came onto the scene with tests of Kwid, Alto 800 etc.

Shouldn't we move on past that time, and now give things like overall customer satisfaction and actual safety and reliability more priority over things like features and performance?

Please don't think like I'm questioning the choice of the more experienced BHP-ians here...just sharing my humble opinion.

If not rescinding COTY, I think the least we can do is atleast reassess our opinions on giving future advice

[Quinn]

If we look from Safety stand point, I guess very few options exist today. Especially in the 8L segment. To put it very simply, I think in country like India, it is the common buyer who drives requirements. Just like the average buyer, governments and manufacturers have their own objectives.

Undoubtedly Hyundai or MSIL gives an experience that is very evident to the buyer (in terms of bling or economy or service quality) in day-to-day activities. One probably doesn't get to experience the safety aspect every day. I have heard Educated and well-to-do guys say: "What is guarantee that NCAP is accurate? We heard that sometimes airbags wont deploy during crashes so its better to buy Maruti or Hyundai". Some of these are directors or VPs in famous orgs and they actually bought cars like Dezire. Moreover, remember that even Tiago/Tigor was marked for unstable body shell in NCAP. I am a nobody to judge on this but simply trying to throw light on a common man's point of view.

At the end of the day facts are NCAP ratings and on road prices. These coupled with user experience and awareness factor drive sales and they in turn drive requirements.

If everybody starts buying TATA or MAHINDRA or famed German cars, I guess MSIL or Hyundai will also have to improve. From TBHP point of view, what we can do to help this? increase awareness on NCAP ratings from safety point of view? how? may be a sticky post or banner on 5 star NCAP rated cars. Lets leave it to the mods to decide. They really do a lot to bring a great amount of information to us so lets give them that space.

[BLACNWYTE]

I'm a middle class person who used public transport. From that I moved on to a two wheeler and from that I was considering a four wheeler. An upturn in fate led me to a bigger and possibly better car as my first car but otherwise I was looking at an entry level car from MSIL. Still my thinking is mostly middle class because I have lived my whole life like that till now. A coin saved is a coin earned. The following rant is based on that thinking.

An Alto/S-Presso is a much safer option when compared to a two wheeler. Most of the people who go for these entry level cars are first time car buyers and people who need dedicated city car. These people mostly consider ownership costs, resale and FE while purchasing cars and not the safety aspect. In their view rightly so too and it will be a long time before we put own safety ahead money saved. On a daily basis I see people abandoning a perfectly good WOB to cross a busy highway with no heed to personal safety or safety of motorists, just to save what, like a minute. That is the reason why a decently safe car like Tiago struggles to compete with the entry level lot from MSIL. I'm not saying everybody who purchases a Maruti are apathetic to safety, but I'm observing that most of us (us meaning majority of people) choose cars within the constraints of affordability, ease of access and reliability. TATA has a long way to go before mass market gives it the reliability certificate. To me, providing a sub 5 lakh car with 4* safety rating is nothing less than a feat of engineering and kudos to TATA for that.

In no way I'm trying to justify KIA in this 3* 'achievement', rather I'm disappointed with this as many others in this forum. If TATA can provide a sub 5 lakh car with a 4* rating then surely KIA with probably superior engineering division can provide at least a 4* car at 15 lakhs. The harsh words against KIA in this thread is also due to a fact that we have suggested the car to people who asked our opinion thinking we knew about cars better than them. We trusted KIA based on their connection with Hyundai, who has delivered the first gen Creta which scored 4* in the Latin NCAP (I believe it was India made Creta, specced similar to one which was on sale in India and that body-shell was declared stable) to give us at minimum a 4* rated car. That trust was breached and those of us who gave our opinions were sort of discredited. What sort of a car enthusiast would I be if I suggest unsafe cars as safe ones, right? I believe some of the anger sprung from this feeling, the losing of credibility of sort, well, it did for me.

Well the next time I'm in the market for a car I'll surely go for the best safe rated car and not the new guy on the block with flashy accessories/features. I would rather surround me and my family with the safe car rather than a feature rich car.

With all things done and dusted, I still own a first gen Creta with a possible brake issue and questionable safety rating. I got carried away by the features and comfort and honestly thought dual airbags with ABS,EBD was good enough. I can't change it now or for the foreseeable future. All I can do now is to tell people who ask my opinion is to be careful with their choice and help them make informed choices. End rant.

[avira_tk]

Ford was the first manufacturer to learn the hard way that the market doesn't pay for international quality, the fiesta was part of the one ford program and bombed spectacularly. We have one at home and it has been a great experience, the steering feel is a delight and the engine is still smooth and quiet. Ford learned and launched the ecosport, the low rent version for the domestic market and full fat versions for export, a raging success that saved the company.

This outrage will just last a news cycle long, people will be buying the cars as most of the alternatives are just as bad. Seltos /Creta has no competition, i10 has a good brand image and Spresso is backed by Maruti, I see no effect with this news for their sales.

[Bibendum90949]

i've only read till the 6 th page of this thread, been at a place with limited internet connectivity and learned about this shocker of a news very late.

As a Seltos owner, two things define this news - SHOCKED AND FEEL CHEATED!! Yes agreed, Kia didn't promise me a 5* GNCAP before I signed my cheque. A 2* (which got just missed by few decimal points) is not I expected even for the most pessimistic.

I'm almost completing one year of ownership and in fact an ownership review has been on the boil in the Assembly Line. First few things that flashed through my mind.

* Oh God! Have I made a wrong choice? A resounding Yes now.
* What price can my Seltos fetch now.
* Kia is another Maruti in the making, they're at a frantic pace and may even pip Maruti in making unsafe cars.
* What will I answer to the people whom I advocated to buy Seltos by saying " Seltos would at least get a 4 star rating". At least 7-8 of them have bought basis my recommendation. Sorry to all of them. I didn't expect Kia to stab in the back like this.

Few quick changes consciously. Just finished a 400 km day drive yesterday. My average highways speeds have dropped from 100-110 to 80-90 after reading the news.

I bought the Seltos last year. Back then, we had only the Australasian NCAP rating published. Realistically, I expected a 4 star GNCAP rating at the very least. Now a borderline 3* is scandalous to say the least. I wanted to opt for a diesel automatic variant with ESC and 6 airbags. It wasn't available then, GTX+ D AT came in much later. I had to make a big compromise with ESC. Now with this borderline 3* rating, the additional airbags wouldn't have made huge difference on the safety front, ESC still would.

With this, I've decided and all the more convinced to spruce up my trusted 9 year old Laura to give it a third life after serving me immaculately for close to 2 lakh kms.

I've shared this earlier on a different thread- Kia Carnival with a 35 lakhs+ price only has only 2 airbags for their entry and mid variants. Only the limousine trim gets 6 airbags. That pretty much sums up Kia 's approach towards their India spec cars . They are just following the footsteps of Maruti. Only we car buyers are to be blamed here. High time Govt. introduced stricter safety norms that are on par with Euro standards.

In short, We've close to 75% of our car market dominated by 3 manufacturers who care a damn on passenger safety.

Take a bow our home grown boys - Tata and Mahindra !

[Superleggera]

I think like Car of the year, we need to start the "Hall of Shame" poll in TBHP in every 6 months where we call out the disasters and manufacturers play with our life.



Cars not having safety features that a buyer can assess (Like less number of airbags, not having ABS/EBD etc) is still okay with me because the buyer knows that before he puts the money on the table. Having an unstable structure, Airbag having half the size , reinforcement bars on onside just to pass the GNCAP test etc are real integrity issues for which the manufacturer must be sued.

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

This thread is on fire and rightly so.

I'll come to case of Hyundai. About a month back, I had posted (Hyundai HB20) regarding the crash test of HB20 done by Latin NCAP where it dropped from 4 stars to 1. So is it that Hyundai has dropped the quality of car on sale in 2020 from that of 2019? Is the case similar here?

Dont the tests itself change every year (adding different ones)? They become more stringent and there is no guarantee that same car will get same stars next year.
Not sure if the above falls in that or the quality really went down.

So all the global designs are just that. They look like them and have plethora of features while they cut cost where you cant feel or perceive. Heck, they keep the door weights same with so called re-assuring thuds

[PioneerNB]

End of the day Maruti may be a tin can and Kia/Hyundai glorified tin cans, but its not their fault. We do not have strict regulations, most of our roads and infrastructure are nothing to write about.

As a corporation they are doing the best to sell their products and provide a good experience to all customers and that is what is keeping their coffers ringing.

Maruti are tagged as tin cans yet sells numbers and I own one myself and am totally happy with the ownership experience till date, be servicing/ support

Hyundai/Kia never have said their vehicles are class leading in safety but their experience and feel good factor is advertised and the quality of products are class leading.

Somewhere I don't think it's fair to bash them, end of day its just a business transaction, if safety was your priority you should have chosen a safer car by investigating more on safety ratings etc. Rather than blindly believing that greater the money greater the safety theory.

The test results were shocking but somewhere I knew that this was to happen. Consumer priorities define a market until it is regulatory driven. The Government is the biggest driver of safety, emission norm and security.