14th November 2014, 22:39 | #76 |
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| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements 1. I am all for airbags and ABS being made compulsory across all cars as a person upgrading from 75000 rupee motorcycle to a 3 lakh rupee vehicle is partly doing it to carry more people and also partly because he 'assumes' it is a safer mode of transport than his current steed. 2. If a figure of rupees 550/- a month on EMIs as another member quoted is all the difference over a non airbag, ABS variant then its absolutely a no- brainer as hardly anyone upgrading from a two wheeler buys cars for outright cash. If mister RCB still thinks that it would drive them customers away then ideally how poor does he think that an average Indian car buyer is? and Will they not bear maintenance and high fuel costs ? 3.It's hilarious and very very sad that a person heading such a large corporation says Europe doesn't have to deal with two wheeler safety so they can concentrate on 4 wheeler safety. Is that arrogance or ignorance ? 4. If VW and toyota can add these features virtually cost free then why cant MSIL ? is it just because most first time uninformed buyers will continue to keep filling their coffers not realizing how detrimental their products are to their safety ? 5. Also if projector headlamps , alloys and spoilers and all that stuff if marketable and sell-able on a stingray with an increase in price is justified then how is adding a 10K ABS module not ? why ? because looking funky and feature filled and glitzy is more important than some hidden module with the capability of saving lives ? 6. If the so called educated corporate leaders of our country share such a view on the safety of an average indian and if a single person gets to decide if a person is worthy of a life saving feature or not irrespective of the pricing are we truly evolving as nation ? its high time customers get to decide what they want to buy! Don't decide for us just educate the people enough to help them take informed decisions ! |
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14th November 2014, 22:40 | #77 |
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| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements No wonder such statements are coming from Maruti. If I remember correctly, they go to the extreme of saving a few hundred bucks and skipping the left RVM on some base models. It's no surprise they are crying sour over ABS and airbags. They don't want to do this because they make a killing, selling the top version to people who are safety conscious. I bet the price difference between the base and top model is the major reason why people compromise on safety. Let's add this option to all versions and then see how many people will opt in for this. |
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14th November 2014, 22:43 | #78 |
BHPian | re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements You cannot blame on Bhargava alone, If the govt is not insisting of global safety standards why should the business man invest more and cut his profit complying to global safety standards. Its not in the case of automobile's alone check out our standards in quality of food and fruits we are eating raw poison everyday out standards should be changed it has to be equal or above the global standards. |
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14th November 2014, 22:51 | #79 |
BHPian | re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Ridiculous statement to say the least! A statement which is worth being in a trash bin! Trying to hold on to market leadership by skimping mandatory safety features is not at all acceptable. MSIL is just making a joke out of itself. Lead by example, not just by KMPL. Selling safety features as luxury features is the hallmark of MSIL. Last edited by MCR : 14th November 2014 at 22:52. |
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14th November 2014, 23:01 | #80 |
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Infractions: 0/2 (11) | Suzuki Forgetting What Made Them!! Had any Auto CEO made that comment within the western media he wil be out of a job, pronto!! The company will distance themselves from the individual and claim he's not in the right frame of mind. Quite a few people have come out in support of maruti claiming why do they have to do something that's not mandatory. Well they don't have to, but maruti is not your average Indian car company, IS IT? They were started by the government using tax payers money to literally monopolize a market when no other serious auto-maker could compete against them. So as a company they benefited from both peoples money and the elected governments policies. Maruti is in a comfortable position now and can take Indian's for granted. But hopefully they wont forget once this country looses trust in the brand suzuki as a car company is doomed. Almost half their profits come from India alone. The moment this cash cow dies Suzuki will be eaten alive by VW. Their bankruptcy filing in the American markets shows that as an independent car maker its not the strongest. Not that someone like Bhargava cares, he's got a few years left and a hefty pension for the rest of his ignorant life!! |
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14th November 2014, 23:04 | #81 |
Senior - BHPian | re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements The only way people like MCB will provide any safety features is when govt/people/market as for it. Unlike features like AMT, auto climate control, etc which provides perceivable difference to the end customer, safety features such as airbags or ABS does not make any such impact. In India, we are still "learning to drive" and I believe it will take some more time before we become mature enough to ask for such features in a base model. A typical Indian customer for a car is looking for features that are "obvious" and thus "flauntable" for a given price range and not some feature which are "unseen" and "unflauntable", that too for a higher price. Let us look at basic safety features like seat belts. It is safe to assume that except in cities where the rules are enforced, 90% of the drivers dont wear them. They find it a hassle, rather than a safety feature. Same is the case with wearing helmets while driving/riding 2-wheelers. Airbags and ABS are still far away for these folks. |
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14th November 2014, 23:13 | #82 |
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| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Unfortunately, the Chairman made a joke out of himself. Definitely this statement of his will become a hot topic in all parties and meetings and I will be amazed if he can stick his head up in front of other executives and heads. Having heard this from a top shot, I cant expect anything better than this from a sales executive. So if anyone wants some saturday afternoon entertainment, walk into maruti showroom making people think you are a prospective swift customer and quiz the SA about the safety of the swift without airbags and ABS, and the crash test. You will be provided the best comedy of your lifetime. Do post it in the other thread Speaking on a serious note, the statement about two wheeler upgrades cannot hold good for a Swift. If they think that Swift customers are the ones upgrading from a bike, what about the cheaper cars in the stable? At least, an alto will be a safer option compared to a bike though it wont have safety features as such. But it is a load of bull to justify how safe the swift is taking such absurd reasoning. They, the company should come out of the mileage USP at least for cars above the WagonR at least and focus on other aspects. Yes for a person upgrading from a bike as they say, the mileage offered by an alto will be of an important aspect. Once they start moving upwards, I dont think that will hold much significance. Afterall, who even complains if a diesel swift returns a kmpl or two less? Even the petrol version. I am more than happy with what the Dzire gives and would be more than willing to sacrifice 2kmpl if the car was made stronger. |
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14th November 2014, 23:24 | #83 | |
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| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Ok looks like I might look like the devils advocate here. But what i say, I only do so for the benefit of us as consumers. Cos at the end of the day, it is us individuals who suffer and not either sides of this corporate-political battle. Let me start by saying that the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Not saying that I support these statements by the likes of not only by R.C.Bhargava, but also by Andy Palmer, former Chief Planning Officer, at Nissan, or that cars like the Datsun Go, or Swift are safe, but im trying to individually observe the parties involved in this issue, whats in stake for them, and IMO why they are right or wrong. Let me start with Global NCAP's and ADAC. Please read this article by an Automobile industry Veteran about "Global NCAP" and ADAC. Both have been involved in less than ideal controversies themselves and both have managed to "silence these controversies". Here is the article. Quote:
Regarding the issue surrounding Max Mosley I rather not talk about it here, but those of you who are interested kindly look up the matter (in its in entirety) yourselves. or follow this link: http://dailykanban.com/2014/11/whats...ys-crash-burn/ (it contains the same text as above, but with some links attached. This whole blog, along with "The truth about cars" by the same guy, Bertel Schmitt, a former VW executive, give an interesting insight into the automotive industry from the eyes of an insider) Also these so called "European standards" themselves vary from time to time, thus a car which managed a 5 star rating just a few years back, cannot dream of doing the same today. Just ask the guys at Renault with their Megane. http://www.autoviva.com/news/four_ne...euroncap/14021 Interestingly, this article also sees the test of the Euro spec Celerio, which scored 3 stars, which while not the best result, is significantly better than the its Indian cousin the Swift. Also, the speed at which the Global NCAP (Max Mosleys organization) test occurred was higher than the speeds tested by Euro NCAP (European regulatory body) (64km/h vs 56 recommended by Euro NCAP). So what im saying is that the standards keep changing all the time, and the conditions in which these tests were taken are not clear at best. Now coming to the automakers themselves. Progress should be taken in steps and us Indians have a long way to go in terms of road safety. This is the card that the automakers play when they try to offer cars without any significant safety features. They know its not the best option, but like its been beaten about many times before, its safer than a motorcycle. It is a flawed argument to say the least, but one could argue it was the lesser of 2 evils. One thing for certain is that manufacturers may not directly be responsible for the lack of safety features as there are no specific standards to be adhered to. Assuming that there were some such standards, and then it was found that manufacturers are not adhering to them, then its a totally different issue. But the harsh fact of the matter is, that it isnt the case. The fact remains that the cars perform so poorly BECAUSE the requirements are so low. In todays day and age with ever increasing costs, in a country like India with a highly price elastic demand, it is HIGHLY NAIVE and irrational to think (from the eyes of a seller) that any manufacturer will try to offer a "feature" which increase their costs, while potentially offering their competitors a price advantage, without any surety of demand, from what is their most profitable demographic in the industry. Such a "risk" may also not be supported by their shareholders, who are ultimately the "owners" of the company. Business ethics as we see, is not well defined, and is a huge grey area of debatable decisions. In my honest opinion, I do feel better safety features/standards need to be incorporated, and yet I/we are biased towards the lower variant of the vehicle for the cost factor. Infact, when my family purchased our car, (2013 Swift VDi), we asked for ABS as an option, but were refused as it was reserved for the top end version only. This was particularly infuriating as I did not have the means to pay for a whole bunch of features I didnt need (Alloy wheels, audio system etc) thus sacrificing the few features I actually needed. I think with some clever supply chain management, and better marketing, allowing these features as an option in all variants will help in this change. Im sure there are many other people like me who avoid the top end for not wanting to pay for unnecessary features, but would perhaps be interested in adding safety features to the desired variants of cars. (im hinting at some sort of a Mass customization instead of a mass Production system here). Coming to the somewhat obvious fact that this increase in costs will drive away customers, meaning lesser sales for the AutoCos. Yes, its absolutely normal that slump will occur, but its something that, if handled well by the marketing and sales depts, can be overcome in the long run. Remember India is still rather young in terms of an automobile market, and is far from saturation, and there are still a large number of people who would like to purchase their first car in the future. If they don't have a choice of buying their first car without these features, eventually they will rather shell out the extra 30-40k for buying the car rather than purchase a motorcycle. Especially when you take into consideration that the typical indian "First car" owner takes a loan on cars, as they are considered to be long term assets. Thus the delta between paying INR 3,00,000 (for the non ABS/airbag version) vs INR 3,30,000 (with safety features) paid as an Emi over a period of a few years may not be so drastic as suggested. In short, while a price hike of any kind sucks, I dont think this will be enough to put away the Indian customer for ever. Coming to the "Biker who could have". India over and above anything else (with regards to road safety ofcourse), needs to generate awareness!! no airbag in this world can prevent ignorance of the driver, and Autonomous cars are still atleast a few decades away realistically speaking. Anyone who has travelled on the legendary German Autobahns will know what im trying to say. Ive travelled (as a passenger) at around 200 kmph (barring the occasional speed limit) for over 4 hours in the middle of the night, without a single tense moment. infact a lot of the passengers were actually sleeping. Every driver is respectful of the other and this mutual respect, coupled with common sense is what allows this. This is the reason the Germans are proud of the Autobahn. Its not simply a technical marvel, but also an accomplishment of human discipline, and skill in extreme conditions. Speeding, car safety cells, safety norms, are all arbitrary if the drivers and riders themselves are incompetent. Even though the car we used was a 5 Star rated car, the chances of me surviving such an accident still seems bleak at best. I would love to take a VW Golf or, Euro spec Volvo and have it crashed against an Indian Lorry in typical Indian conditions and see how it fares. Thus the first step India NEEDS, more than any safety standard, is to create SAFE DRIVERS (and riders)!! I neednt explain in detail, as we all as drivers and riders know what the problems are. While I welcome any move by the government towards increasing public safety, I think that the problem we face requires much more attention than a simple safety badge. Cheers | |
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14th November 2014, 23:38 | #84 |
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| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements I read the article and it's absolute nonsense. The guy who wants to buy a car will buy it. He will cut his "others" expenditure for a year or two if he's buying an entry level car. NCAP is designed to make cars safer, hence every country needs it. MSIL clearly doesn't want to push safety. |
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14th November 2014, 23:50 | #85 |
Distinguished - BHPian | re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Bhargava's interview was an eye opener for me. I thought Maruthi Suzuki was a for-profit corporate, but from the Interview, now I understand that it is a non-profit that aims to make it safer for two-wheeler owners to upgrade to Alto-800 which costs about 3.xx lakhs on the road. |
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15th November 2014, 00:03 | #86 |
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| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements This statement is utter nonsense to my mind. First up, as Mr. Bhargava had quoted, let's talk about numbers. I actually quoted this number just a couple of days back in other posts on car safety here. Annually there are about 200,000 deaths in India on the roads. 16% of these can be attributed to cars. Of those 16%, let's assume a 1/3rd drop due to introduction of safety features, on a conservative side. Now anyone can say that this 5.3% drop is a small percentage. But translate this into actual number. A whopping 10,000 lives! ! Is that a small number? ?????? Anyone who calls that insignificant belongs to a mental institution. Second, yes there are other categories where an improvement is long overdue. Road conditions, road design, road lighting, etc, there are numerous such factors. Yet purely from feasibility perspective, low hanging fruits must be picked first. Common sense would dictate so at least. By no means I mean to say that do not address other more important issues. Address those simultaneously while making quick improvements, what's the harm in that. Thirdly, I have a contrarian view on the impact of price rise on account of introduction of safety features. Lets say that the price of an entry level. Car increases by 40,000. Also lets assume that all 100% buyers entering into car market will enter at this price point only. True, many such buyers may find that increase too much and decide to stay away. Equally true is also the fact that a person riding a 2 wheeler daily with his family may find that same entry level car with new safety features as perfect for his and his familys safety. Remember, the same safety features were earlier available only in higher variants costing a Lac or so higher at the minimum. Now this becomes interesting. On one hand you may lose few buyers, on the other hand you may gain few, maybe many more buyers who suddenly find safety features now closer to their entry level cars budget than earlier and hence more affordable. For example, let's say i drive a 2 wheeler. Now I am planning to buy a car and my budget is 3 lacs. Suddenly the car now costs 3.4 lacs on account of introduction of safety features. Earlier the same features were only available in a car model which costed 4.5 lacs. So the gap between safety features and the lack of safety features is now 40,000 instead of 1.5 lacs. Any logical person in his right mind would tend to see the resultant benefit. Who knows what this may lead to? All in all, making safety features mandatory is a first step, and a VERY BIG First step in the right direction. Surely is a win - win - win situation for all stakeholders. Last edited by rattanw : 15th November 2014 at 00:16. |
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15th November 2014, 00:03 | #87 |
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| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Folks, this thread is turning out to be intolerant of a second opinion. Any pragmatic opinion has been shot down. Remember, a manufacturer cannot survive by making "safety" as plank. Recall the instance of Volvo - a manufacturer who epitomised safety and actually wanted to make it a strategic differentiator against German manufacturers. Well, we all know where Volvo is and where the others are. If we had to put a similar question to Mr. Bajaj and ask why his company manufacturers 3 wheelers which we know have serious concerns on both environmental and safety aspects, I am sure the answer will be on similar lines. As a country, we NEED the 3 wheeler as a mode of transport. Period. When the government wants to impose Europe levels of safety, will they also move to a European level of taxation for automobiles? The taxation structure in our country almost inflates the price of a car by 50-60% over the ex-factory price. Like someone pointed out, can the government not incentivise this for a certain period in the interest of the population? From very recent memory, the whole ruckus about wearing helmets in Pune comes to mind. The media does not help in any small measure when they actually provide coverage to organisations dedicated to opposing the helmet rule! Imagine a day when the same media which carried these NCAP reports starts highlighting that starting next month, car prices set to go up by 50,000 because of "safety equipment". Won't there be a public out cry against this? In conclusion however, I do agree that Mr. Bhargava should have been a little more pragmatic in his views and not sound so immature. It is setting a wrong precedent. But put yourself in his shoes where he has to balance the interests of his shareholders with the customers - and on this occasion he unfortunately chose the former over the latter. This thread will run for many pages - but let us not target the individual unnecessarily - after all he has made a significant contribution in putting India on the global automotive map. |
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15th November 2014, 00:21 | #88 |
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| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Every time I see discussions like these on TBHP I can't help but get frustrated about why all you beautiful folks get to stay out of our auto industry, while people who care a damn about how their work would affect the "mango man" using their creations are currently sitting in the R&D departments of our auto makers. As they say it is the people that make up a company, a handful of petrolheads amongst a sea of "goal oriented" executives don't stand a chance. Create as many government regulations as you want, these "high performance" executives would easily find a work around for them and even get good appraisals for finding the cheat. Mind you these folks are not "Commies" as one BHPian termed them, but completely unabashed capitalists caught in the career rat race and reporting to dinosaurs whose thinking goes like this - Ye AMT JMT nahi chalega, sare Phoren companies ne karke chod diya, jo bikta hain wohi banayenge. Yes, I believe that if we can put all this passion to work we can create stuff like an ABS unit at a very low cost(TVS did it for the apache), probably even an airbag module at a much lesser cost if it was developed by an indian manufacturer, but where is the drive. Our bright engineers did such things in the development of Nano(I risk getting bashed up just for mentioning it), which the entire auto industry - including our own Indian manufacturers said was impossible to make, and it ended up becoming a wannabe jostling for space amongst cars whose design intent was the complete opposite of the nano. We can cry out loud as much as we want on forums, but the fact is that awareness drives demand and demand drives the addition of features - be it comfort or safety(Yes! safety is a much advertised FEATURE in our industry unfortunately). If someone feels like bashing me up right at this point of time - I would like to rephrase a popular bollywood dialogue - Koi bhi automobile company perfect nahi hota, use perfect banana padta hain... The Europeans, Americans, Japanese and Koreans we compare our cars with, have had decades of headstart over us, if we have to beat them at their own game, it is only possible by bringing passion into the industry. Our country is indeed different, case in point the AMT - which is a substandard solution(as defined by the phoren auto makers) compared to the DSGs of the world, but it is exactly what the sore indian left foot and ultra light wallets need to survive in our crazy urban traffic. I am inclined towards arguments by gthang and aerohit even at the cost of being seen as someone "going down the wrong way" as one bhpian put it. In a country where the awareness on safety is so poor that an engineering graduate(yes computer science is an engineering stream if you didn't know already) employed with a Multi national company thinks that he is safe in his 10+ lakh european sedan without wearing a seatbelt because he opted for the highest variant with airbags, spreading awareness is a bigger necessity than technology. That and having people in the industry who care about the kind of products coming out of our assembly lines. If you feel that you are entitled to all the safety tech in your car, you also have the responsibility to spread the awareness. Our auto industry is ten times smaller than that of China and our fatality rate is comparable to them, imagine what would happen when even 1/3rd of our population moves into the car buying bracket. I did write to one of our moderators about doing something in getting petrolheads into our auto companies, even if in non technical roles(Yes it makes a hell of a difference). I feel T-BHP has enough clout to atleast make our manufacturers listen to what they say, its high time you guys used it. If he is listening, I am making another sincere appeal to do something about taking all this positive energy into our auto companies, the places where it is sorely missed(by people like me) and is needed the most. |
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15th November 2014, 00:23 | #89 |
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| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Mr. Bhargava’s statement are disappointing and not worth much commenting . It seems like the Indian auto industry is having an Ostrich attitude to safety. India is one of the very few markets in the world where Suzuki is a the dominant player and with only “Kita deti hai” attitude they are going to soon lose their dominant position to better build safer cars. Certainly I am not going to recommend Maruti cars to any one as I know where they stand w.r.t. safety. |
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15th November 2014, 00:29 | #90 | |
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| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Quote:
The analogies and interpretation of safety is awesomely weird, I must say. Hypothetically, if ABS is made mandatory for 2 wheeler tomorrow, people will start buying bicycles, but it will endanger them even more. Now if some other norm bring in a safety feature in bicycles, then people will resort to walking (even worse). This will go on, till someone start questioning the invention of the wheel. I have no clue which century are we living in. Mr. Bhargava must understand that India is evolving, and so are the consumers. You represent a brand which is the heart of most Indian families (including mine), so please abstain from such statements. @M Suzuki, time for some damage control! Get an informed person to represent your brand. I faintly remember that some CEO of some highly successfully Toy making company, once made a public statement that "their toys are cheap...". The company went bankrupt! Regardless of the intent, a careless (or "wanting to influence") statement can bring in catastrophic impact. | |
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