|
Search Forums |
Advanced Search |
Go to Page... |
Search this Thread | 216,934 views |
25th November 2014, 16:14 | #271 | ||
Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: India
Posts: 4,502
Thanked: 12,631 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Quote:
Quote:
First, India is lot less safety conscious than many other countries in this aspect. Only few folks would invest in a car with proper safety kit. On top of it, if the airbags fail to deploy in a worthy crash, it puts a big question mark. I do not want really this to happen, but many can even argue that why to invest in airbags when they may fail to deploy when actually needed! On the other hand, as the state of technology is, airbags are one-time use/ practically maintenance free equipment. The SRS indicator on the dashboard can indicate any failure within the system, but surely that is not foolproof. Probably, we would be able to check the airbags systems in the future when engineers would bring re-usable airbags in cars. Regards, Saket | ||
() Thanks |
|
25th November 2014, 17:27 | #272 |
Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chennai
Posts: 11,128
Thanked: 27,625 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Nothing personal: I am arguing with your arguments only, except I have rather lost track or what they were. Is it that we should not have airbags because we cannot inspect them, or even believe that they are there? Actually, I am really in two minds about airbags for safety. Without proper usage, ie seat belts with seats set at correct distance, etc, they themselves can be killers. With unbelted children, sat on front-seat-passenger laps, seat belts will kill. Who knew: the steering-wheel airbag is supposed to point at one's chest, not one's face. I didn't know: I learnt it from my current-car manual. <Blush> If you are saying that one can't just put airbags and ABS (etc) in a car and label it Safe then I completely agree. Airbags can be inherently dangerous; increasing the confidence of a bad driver increases danger But can we agree on bodywork: well designed crumple zones and a strong cabin? To me this is the bottom line of driver/passenger protection, and there is really no excuse for their absence in a modern car, and the more dangerous the driving environment is, the less excuse there is. Last edited by Thad E Ginathom : 25th November 2014 at 17:29. |
(3) Thanks |
The following 3 BHPians Thank Thad E Ginathom for this useful post: | driverace, Lalvaz, Prafful_Rathod |
25th November 2014, 19:26 | #273 | |
BHPian Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: India
Posts: 835
Thanked: 1,604 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Quote:
Just let me put one example on the condition Indian automobile sector, look at this graph : Source : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-analysis.html Our market is mostly dominated by Japanese car manufacturers. Now a new perception is building that these dominating companies are rather dumping their sub standard products in India. Those, who tried to sell their good quality products couldn't actually survive and finally had to close the shops. For example Mitsubishi. Off late Koreans have also gained large share in Indian market. There is very little share of European manufacturers. Now this is interesting because they are the only manufacturers who atleast talk about safety, be it just marketing point for them or their true nature, but only they are the ones who talk about safety. I am not taking side of the Euro companies, neither trying to prove their cars are better than others. But the reality is the manufacturers/brands, who talk about safety, sturdiness etc could never gain mainstream position in Indian market. People talk that their cars are not reliable or their service is poor or expensive etc. so they are not gaining remarkable shares. But then there is counter question, is the situation really that worst? or there is some lobby who spreads such negative reputation of these brands who talk about safety/sturdiness and building such cars is expensive and less profit gaining affair for rest of the 'well doing' manufacturers? I am again repeating - When we talk about safety then its not only about airbags or ABS, first need is a sturdy and well designed, well built body shell which has been crash tested. Manufacturers do their own internal crash testings so a well designed car will pass any kind of third party test its being thrown in. Airbags and ABS come later after the seatbelts. Last edited by tbppjpr : 25th November 2014 at 19:37. | |
() Thanks |
27th November 2014, 09:19 | #274 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2012 Location: Himachal
Posts: 1,049
Thanked: 3,986 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Quote:
Fatalism is a bad thing, on that we can fully agree. In light of that, I'm thrilled to discover that there are things like certified safety driving instructors (etc) in the land, and in all honesty believe that's going to go a LOT further towards decreasing road fatalities than high-tech safety features in the cars, though of course solid basic body structures and things like side-impact beams, which are affordable and low-tech/low-maintenance, really should be there. Here's a point, though, by example: There's a great safety feature available on every single Indian-market vehicle that costs the consumer probably less than Rs.500 and which very few people in most parts of the country avail of: it's called a "dimmer switch" (i.e., "dipper") and if set to low beams at night to oncoming traffic, it goes a very long way towards eliminating both in-car and out-of car road fatalities at night. And yet I have had all kinds of people, even academically quite highly educated people, tell me why high beams can be justifiably used all the time here (example: "in YOUR country all the roads are lit up at night [absolutely wrong]; that's why you can use your low beams over there - we can't do that"). Point being that uneducated / undisciplined / irresponsible drivers are always going to be the root cause of road fatalities. Not cars, regardless of their equipment. Let's be clear on that up front. And that is true of every nation on earth. Now for the higher-tech equipment in question, and whether it should be mandated: ABS systems: I worked personally with actually every single system that U.S. O.E.'s and a number of imports were using at that time - Bendix, Kelsey-Hayes, Bosch, Delco, etc) and had some experience testing (besides remanufacturing) those, and know where they're deficient - also know that insurance industry studies (who unlike the O.E.'s weren't trying to sell technology) in the U.S. found that there were actually MORE frontal collisions in ABS-equipped vehicles than in non-equipped. This was maybe 15-20 years ago now and it could be argued that technology has improved - but if my limited recent experience with a new ABS-equipped Indian vehicle is any indication, I have doubts. Re: airbags, a friend (again, some years ago) had done a thesis on the shortcomings / ineffectiveness vs. cost penalty of airbags - at least in many situations / under many conditions: for example, injury / fatality rates are actually higher when not also wearing a seatbelt - or when inflating against a person of low stature (not status), or children; which is why they are supposed to be de-activated by the owners/dealers in such cases. That is old data based on antiquated systems, you say? Do tell, in the entry-level Indian market, does anyone really believe that anything better than what those antiquated systems represented will be fitted? Or that low-income buyers will have a clue about the need to disable the airbag where their kids are seated (/standing) beside them, or that ABS is not magically going to make them stop immediately in any situation (which is what a lot of Americans thought in the early days), or that the pedal should not be "pumped" in ABS-equipped cars, or that for maximum benefit, one will have to STEER out of trouble, with ABS fully activated??? Etc? Some of Bhargava's points are quite valid in my view. What of those who buy bikes instead of cars, because the price of safety equipment in the latter has driven prices up by a lakh? What of multinational suppliers pushing their products in their own interests? What of the fact of so many being killed on roads outside of cars? Etc? I see shrill reaction, but these issues need to be addressed thoughtfully and soberly. In my years in the subcontinent, I've seen a great many attempts to make the "solutions" - whether real or imagined - of other, sometimes excessively-admired nations work here; more often than not, these have failed, and often at great expense. India is a great land, and (IMO, as one not born here) is more than up to the task of assessing its own needs and benefits on its own terms - not those that someone in Japan / the U.S./EU is going to dictate / define for her. I hope there will be sufficient self-confidence for that task, because context is everything - and India has a great opportunity to do things her own way, a way that's right FOR HER. Not to say that ideas and technology and experience shouldn't be shared far and wide. But many of the other formerly "great" nations have done poorly even at serving themselves, and are now in decline. Why take ideas that barely worked there (if at all) and try to transplant them here, where so many parameters are vastly different? People who understand how to maximize the effectiveness of ABS/airbags will likely be willing to pay for it and it is good to offer it to them; those who do NOT are likely to derive very little if any benefit from it - perhaps even real disadvantages even in terms of safety - and we may even find, years down the road, that a lot of time/money/trouble has gone forth with no positive effect whatsoever on road "safety". I say spend the money/effort/time where it is actually most likely to produce the desired effect, keeping the big picture in view. Regards, -Eric | |
(4) Thanks |
The following 4 BHPians Thank ringoism for this useful post: | alpha1, gthang, SS-Traveller, vjjustin |
27th November 2014, 10:37 | #275 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2012 Location: Himachal
Posts: 1,049
Thanked: 3,986 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Quote:
My home state in the U.S. seems to have decided some years ago, having accomplished everything else under the sun, that it would now be possible to create a little earthly utopia by proliferating rules and regulations. Besides this idea making things difficult and expensive for the average law-abiding citizen to get anything useful accomplished, it eventually caused the state's fiscal bankruptcy (yes, it really is possible even in the almighty and oh-so-rich USA, where currency notes are green, having grown on trees). And the saddest reality is that the place is no nearer to heaven now than it was then. Ironically, that state, now for paucity of funds, had to shut down the longstanding vehicle safety inspection program altogether (it really wasn't doing much good by that time anyway)... I have seen individuals, organizations, etc (even myself as a husband or parent) try to effect positive change by forcing it on people. It very seldom if ever achieves the intended result. It is far better to teach, to inspire, to THINK. Media-based public awareness campaigns, as one possible channel, went a long way in the time of my childhood towards large-scale positive change (every American t-bhpian from my era will remember the image of a native American on horseback, having ridden through pristine wilderness, tearfully surveying a trash-laden interstate highway - and will realize how much cleaner the U.S. roadsides are these days, how rare it is to see someone throwing trash out a window). But best of all would be to: "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "do unto others as you would have them do to you". In truth (think about the vast implications) this would take care of around 95+ percent of road safety (and everything else) right there... ...leaving the rest to, well... that mysterious realm of "fate" - where the most conscientious of drivers with ideal road conditions, benefited by all the safety features from dimmer switches to side-impact beams to premium tyres and fresh wiper blades and well-designed crumple zones and multiple side airbags - still die... as one day we all must. -Eric Last edited by ringoism : 27th November 2014 at 10:55. | |
(3) Thanks |
The following 3 BHPians Thank ringoism for this useful post: | alpha1, gthang, SS-Traveller |
27th November 2014, 10:48 | #276 |
BHPian Join Date: May 2011 Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 73
Thanked: 153 Times
| Wow finally an apt and fitting argument that weighs both the pros and cons wisely. This coming from an industry insider and a person not born in India should make us assess our priorities when it comes to road safety. I half expect this thread to go silent for a while and then another post popping up later by someone who is aghast and terrified about how their car is made out of a tin foil and that anything could happen at any moment. |
() Thanks |
27th November 2014, 11:05 | #277 |
BHPian Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Toronto
Posts: 574
Thanked: 685 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements And now this. http://www.business-standard.com/art...2700013_1.html India's leading business paper carries the headline ' Car safety to come at 12,000 Crs cost'. The article has various interesting quotes: 1. A senior executive at Maruti Suzuki said, "We do offer airbags and enhanced safety features such as anti-lock braking systems in top-end variants. Customers can opt for them according to affordability. If such features are made mandatory across all variants and all models, it will result in increasing the price of vehicles and affect sales, especially at the entry level." 2. Puneet Gupta, associate director at automotive consultancy firm HIS, said, "Vehicle safety is important but given that per capita income is low in India, implementation of safety norms will have an adverse impact on sales. It may affect purchase decisions of consumers looking at upgrading from two-wheelers." 3. Mayank Pareek, president (passenger vehicle business unit) at Tata Motors, told Business Standard, "In India, 50 per cent of the customers are upgrading from a 'two-wheeler' or 'no-wheeler'. For them, any four-wheeler is safer. That aspect should be kept in mind. If putting airbags makes cars too expensive, motorisation will not happen." The only sensible comment though comes here: 4. Abdul Majeed, partner, PricewaterhouseCoopers, offered a different perspective. "With road infrastructure improving, the average speed on Indian roads has been going up. As much as 30-40 per cent of road accidents happening in the country can be avoided if cars are equipped with basic safety features. It is true the cost will go up but if customers are educated, sales should not be a problem. Nobody would want to risk their lives for Rs 35,000-40,000," he said. I have that sinking feeling that most of the manufacturers would push for either a subsidy and/or delay in implementation. Last edited by pratyush6 : 27th November 2014 at 11:29. |
(2) Thanks |
The following 2 BHPians Thank pratyush6 for this useful post: | Lalvaz, SS-Traveller |
27th November 2014, 11:14 | #278 | ||||||
BHPian Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Thane
Posts: 220
Thanked: 1,122 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As far as Bhargava's statement goes about comparing bike safety and car safety, why was he against quadricycles then? Quadricycles would be safer then bike, anyway. Quote:
| ||||||
(6) Thanks |
The following 6 BHPians Thank ashlil for this useful post: | djpeesh, extreme_torque, psp62in, rameshnanda, saket77, vjjustin |
27th November 2014, 13:29 | #279 |
BHPian Join Date: May 2011 Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 73
Thanked: 153 Times
| For someone insisting on raw data, you should make an effort to go through the existing data on what a frontal impact test actually simulates. It definitely does not represent two cars colliding at half the speed but in fact two cars hitting each other at the same speed. I am really tired of this, why do we jump to conclusions about everything. People here are blatantly calling our cars as made of tinfoil, card board boxes etc when they don't even realise how a deformable surface absorbs impact energy and reduces peak deceleration value the occupants are subjected to, hence preventing fatal injuries in a crash(for people wanting to see raw data - please refer to the links of standards I posted earlier in the thread). It is high time we put an end to these sweeping remarks about how 'cheap' our cars are compared to some 'phoren' brand when in fact they don't have the 'spheres' to design cars ground up for us and are pushing their so 'superior' sales duds with all this fear mongering. The cheapness and flimsiness everyone is turning their noses up at is called as 'optimization' in the automotive industry and Indian engineers are beating the automotive superpowers at a game that they have mastered over a 100 years. |
(2) Thanks |
The following 2 BHPians Thank DReddy for this useful post: | alpha1, SS-Traveller |
27th November 2014, 14:07 | #280 | |
Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chennai
Posts: 11,128
Thanked: 27,625 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Quote:
More or less as I said in an earlier post: no, India shouldn't be dictated to --- but learning by the mistakes of others is something that comes free. That is a kind of FDI that I completely in favour of! As to what has "barely worked," I don't think that having accident/fatality rates that are way below those of India can be described as barely working. [Yet] Again: Yes, driver education and law is the single most important change that could and should be made. It is also the one that will take the longest. No excuse not to start right away. Safer vehicles is next on the list (No excuse not to start right away) and lets begin with vehicle bodies, crumple zones, cabin strength, reducing danger to pedestrians (Ban Bull Bars Immediately!) and so on. Increased cost and reduced profit is not excuse to put this off. We can take a little longer to argue points about other specifics such as ABS and airbags. Especially airbags, which will kill if not properly used. Putting it bluntly, they will kill many Indians and Indian children who are using their cars in the way that they normally do simply due to the lack of aforementioned education, testing and enforcement. | |
(6) Thanks |
The following 6 BHPians Thank Thad E Ginathom for this useful post: | djpeesh, johy, mallumowgli, psp62in, SS-Traveller, vjjustin |
27th November 2014, 16:53 | #281 |
BHPian Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Bangalore
Posts: 70
Thanked: 45 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements One thing we as a consumer need to understand here is Mr Bhargava's business interest. Today not only MIL but most other car manufacturers are making money by selling top end models with all safety feature. I believe many-many buyer will downgrade their purchase to lower variant if safety features are available in base and mid-variant. Margins are really high in top models and companies want to push that sales. One very humble Qs we can ask to Mr. Bhargava is, if Alto-800 today at 2.4Lakh, why today we don't have option of same alto with airbags at 2.7L? Now with this argument, if we re-look at his statement, anyone can understand his rant about govt decision. In my opinion even if one life saved by safety features, its worth making it mandatory. I hope Govt. will keep his stand firm on this. Regards SE |
(3) Thanks |
The following 3 BHPians Thank speed_edge for this useful post: | djpeesh, phamilyman, sun_king |
|
28th November 2014, 08:56 | #282 | |
BHPian Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Bangalore
Posts: 70
Thanked: 45 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Quote:
| |
() Thanks |
28th November 2014, 15:52 | #283 |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,359
Thanked: 3,214 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements I don't agree with the maruti boss, but considering the kind of crap airbags Toyota put in their cars which ended up killing the passengers in the event of a crash maybe a moratorium on manufacturers obsessed with cost cutting ( the Japanese's ones mainly) adding any more safety kit that might work to cause what it tries to prevent. The whole 'illiterate villagers don't buy a car with safety gear' is pretty much a consistent theme on this forum. In my experience, education, postcode and money don't play a role in passing up on safety, the last person who dismissed ABS as just a gimmick was someone in an urban area buying a safari cash down. He parroted the sales line that ABS reduces braking distance by just 2 feet Don't ask me where he got the numbers. |
() Thanks |
29th November 2014, 11:49 | #284 |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,717
Thanked: 449 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Latest ACI has an article on NCAP and the test results of Indian car's. On one page they have 3 pictures of the Nano, Alto & Go. You can see clearly that the GO's structural integrity is the worst of the lot, even worse then the Nano's. While the Nano & Alto's A pillars are comparitively largely intact the Go has just crushed up completely. The Datsun brand name was launched to sell cheap car's, what Nissan seems to be doing is selling cheaply made car's. It's shocking what a international manufacturer of repute & a Japanese one at that has resorted to in the name of launching affordable cars. To add to that Datsun is not agreeing to the problems in their car's. They are flooding social media with messages of how the braking distance in the Go is the best in the segment. The ideal thing to do would be to accept shortcomings and improve them. More then ABS & Airbags, it's poor structural rigidity that's worrying. Last edited by amit : 29th November 2014 at 12:07. |
(2) Thanks |
The following 2 BHPians Thank amit for this useful post: | dark.knight, nkapoor777 |
29th November 2014, 17:39 | #285 |
Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Beans Town
Posts: 1,847
Thanked: 8,354 Times
| re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's controversial statements Few questions to ask before this round-about debate takes another 360 : 1) Are there safer variants in most of the entry level cars today? - Yes 2) Do people have a choice to buy the models that are 'safer' with SRS/ABS? -Yes 3) Should cars be differentiated based on country of origin or local policies? - Local policies because certain 'Asians' are on par with or better than some rivals in Europe & as well score top points in safety tests in U.S. In contrast many Euro brands are flogged for their quirks in U.S & Europe. 4) Are great dynamics and haptics equivalent to perceivable safety? - No connection whatsoever. 5) Is reliability an ignored sub-aspect of safety? - Indeed it is and it is ignored all the time. A car with sorted electronics/mechanicals which do not malfunction or conk off in the middle of driving, avoids an incident altogether. 6) If, inspite of so much information bordering on trite, being available to the general public about the +ives of safety features, they still go ahead and try and save 30k for a model that does not have them, is it still the brands fault? - No 7) If affordability to the extent of every rupee saved is indeed a concern as per the Maruti Chairman's word, does the buyer have a slight advantage buying a basic car over buying a 2 wheeler? - Yes, specially when it comes to family transport (carrying 3, 4 on a bike is the familiar Indian jugaad concept which never should've been done). 8) Ok smarty pants, ABS & SRS can only do so much, what about sheet-metal thickness, anti-roll bars, load absorbing frames & steel beams? Can the 'Asians' do that to make entry vehicles safer? - I'll answer that when the "Europeans" bring out a sub 3 lakh car built to such specifications. Its simple, like everything else today its the buyer who decides what car he wants based on available resources. Its only he who knows best why he bought a particular model. Maybe 2 years back I'd agree that the urban customer had no idea of safety tech, but its all over the place today. Rural customers might still not have grasped the concept yet, but most are ruled by economics. Its quite natural for a company to push a model with safety features than without because of higher margins, but when the consumer has a ceiling on the price it may not be so easy. The safety-frame of a vehicle, well as I said before its all down to local company policies. That policy is influenced by the mentality of buyers in the country. Ultimately, sales matter. Things just are the way they are as of now, & only 'demand' for safer models can give birth to policy changes. Disclaimer : No direct references have been made to any brand in particular. They have been only referred to by their region of origin. Similarities if any found though, aren't as co-incidental as they are, factual. |
() Thanks |