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26th August 2014, 16:18 | #16 | |
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| Re: Accidents in India - PICS Quote:
At the same time, even if no vehicle is in front of mine while negotiating a bend, i reduce my speed and honk just to give an indication to the person coming in the opposite direction that somebody is there. What if the guy coming in the opposite direction of yours happens to be a moron?? God save you. | |
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27th August 2014, 06:27 | #17 | |||
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| Re: Accidents in India - PICS Quote:
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I do however, believe that the evidence based driving which SS-T is talking about is a little different. I am not against defensive driving per say, but I do believe that here, we need to be a little more pragmatic. I can assure you that I do practice defensive driving most of the time, but not all the time. I can also assure you, that defensive driving can be dangerous in certain scenarios, which are likely to be encountered in India (and which I have definitely encountered). Quite a lot of points which @Thad has raised are true, and are followed by me 90% of the time. However, I don't really follow them the rest of the time. Fully aware of the consequences (and I have paid handsomely for some of my past mistakes), I have changed my driving style radically about 2 years back, post which 'close encounters' and accidents have reduced to almost nil. The only final hurdle I think, is my failure to understand the 2W drivers. I do a long highway trip twice a year on average (covering ~1000 kms), and I can assure you, I still have one encounter where I have to really step on my brakes and save the other idiot; who invariably always turns out to be a 2W rider. Always That's what got me thinking of asking SS-T about some insights which he might be able to share with us. I am dead certain that evidence based driving is a lot different from presumptious and defensive driving. And @thad, I am always afraid of driving here, yet I love driving here Might seem confusing, but it's true in my case Quote:
@mods: Kindly shift the above posts to an appropriate thread. I couldn't decide where to place them. Sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks, Simple_car Last edited by Simple_car : 27th August 2014 at 06:29. | |||
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27th August 2014, 10:07 | #18 | |
Distinguished - BHPian | Re: Accidents in India - PICS Quote:
Evidence-based driving does NOT EXCLUDE defensive or presumption-based driving, so Thad and yo222's tips will also remain valid. As for insights, let me start off the basis of evidence-based driving by putting up a few questions, that you and anyone else are welcome to answer honestly. 1. Do you check whether the brake lamps of the vehicle ahead are working or not, as soon as you are behind him? How? 2. Have you ever tried to look at the position of the rear view mirrors, and through them tried to see the face of the driver / rider of the vehicle ahead of / alongside / in the next lane to you? If yes, what do you infer (apart from the comment that he is a bad driver if his mirrors are folded)? 3. Do you commonly look at the posture of the driver / rider and of his co-passenger / pillion rider? Or do your eyes just focus on the other vehicle as a whole, and you imagine the vehicle itself conveys some kind of 'body language'? 4. Have you ever tried to observe a 2-wheeler rider's right hand & right foot position and movement carefully? 5. Can a vehicle's wheels (both front and rear) convey any message/evidence to you? EDIT | Disclaimer: I might end up telling someone that their driving technique is bad, while I talk about evidence-based driving - I would hope to be excused and forgiven for such a transgression. There's nothing more criminal than telling a man that he is a bad driver or a bad lover, but in my new job that's an occupational hazard that I would need to tell about the former! Last edited by SS-Traveller : 27th August 2014 at 10:28. | |
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27th August 2014, 10:23 | #19 | |
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| Quote:
You are also right in bringing out the point that it may not be wise, esp in India, to be out and out defensive or a complete pack of aggression. It has to be a mix of both. One may end up on wrong end if I he is not wise in choosing when he needs to be defensive and when to be aggressive within limits. Let me clarify, I believe, defensive <-> evidence based driving are two different parameters than defensive <-> aggressive driving. To say it differently, according to me it can be one of the below combinations - 1) evidence based + defensive driving; 2) evidence based + aggressive driving 3) all out defensive And what I do is to follow a mix of 1 and 2 and use 3 very sparsely. By either not allowing a scope for the 2w to slide aside me on red lights as far as possible or allowing him a full and very clear space is what I mean is evidence based + aggressive driving wherein we decide when to allow and when not to allow others to mess with us. The same goes with being clear on either the 2w remains ahead or he remains tailing me and thereby avoid parallel riding to the extent possible coz that leaves you very little time to react in case the other parallel rider/driver chooses to change gears/lanes suddenly (this applies to both 2w & 4w drivers). To conclude there's nothing called a blue/red book of 100% safe riding in any country. And have enough examples of the experienced most drivers misjudging the situation and ending up on the wrong side. Very much in line with what our other driver friend pointed out in his quote on fishermen's theory. (Sorry, am unable to quote his handle coz am typing on my mobile and I may lose my text if I go back to search his handle name) This has helped me in making a rule for me now onwards "never attempt to understand/estimate how a 2w / 4w drivers and your wife may react to a particular situation". Sorry if I have confused you further, @simple_car !!! | |
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27th August 2014, 10:38 | #20 | |
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| Re: Accidents in India - PICS Quote:
1. I do look out for this, out of experience. Had a close call once due to a non-working taillight. Now, I look out for it specifically when the vehicle ahead is slowing down. As a rule of thumb, I take it for granted that the lights of the bus/truck/commercial vehicle ahead of me doesn't work, unless proven otherwise. 2. Always. My simple thought is if I can't see him, he can't see me either. In such a case, try to make my presence obvious by honks. 3. I observe it as a whole. A private car/SUV belting out black smoke on acceleration is symbolic of an eager driver for me. The kind that will try to race you if you overtake them. 4. Never. I observe it as a whole and try to predict if he will turn either left or right. Mostly try to keep a safe distance from them, if their density increases, I reduce my speeds. 5. Well, wobbling wheels are a sign of danger. Other than that, I don't really observe the tyres. | |
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27th August 2014, 10:49 | #21 | ||||||
Team-BHP Support | Re: Accidents in India - PICS Quote:
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Short driver struggling to see in front of the vehicle. I don't come in front of that vehicle. No seatbelts, I keep a slightly bigger gap between us. Folded mirrors: I avoid overtaking without atleast one small honk. Driver looks back at me looking at them: Smile. Quote:
Usually erratic driving and mobile phone in hand go together. On a undivided highway, I almost always wait for eye contact before overtaking a vehicle. Quote:
If foot is not kept on brake pedal then it means the guy is a bad rider and will crash at some point. If he is accelerating erratically then new rider. Stay away before he pops a wheelie. Quote:
Mismatched alloys and steel wheels indicates a recent puncture. I am wary of people who don't fix them right away. I almost always look at the amount of wear on a tire. Especially at traffic lights. If its raining or there is a little bit of oil then that vehicle will either spin a little or move forward awkwardly. Quote:
Last edited by bblost : 27th August 2014 at 10:51. | ||||||
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27th August 2014, 11:06 | #22 |
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| Re: Evidence-Based Driving for Safety: A Primer Almost a similar kind of experience for me. Almost 5 years back there was a KSRTC bus strike in Karnataka and I happened to take lift on one of the Truck to reach Sirsi from Honnavar. The journey was about 80 Kms and 30 Kms being a Ghat section. The truck driver was holding a big stone which he had kept on the accelerator and was driving without breaking at all. Even in Ghat he did not remove the stone but was driving like that. That day was a nightmare for me. You guys believe it or not he had almost full load on the truck still managed to climb the entire Ghat on 2nd and 3rd Gear and covered the entire distance in 2 hours (including climbing the Ghat). |
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27th August 2014, 11:46 | #23 | ||||||
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| Re: Accidents in India - PICS Quote:
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How? Huh? Trick question? When the next car slows down, I see if the brake-lights come on or glow brighter. Quote:
No left-mirror = idiot manifacturer who believes left ORVM is an accessory AND ignorant owner/driver who does not believe in getting one nevertheless If I can see the eyes of the driver in his mirror, I deduce that he can see me (if he tries to). If I cant see the eyes, I deduce that I am in his/her blind-spot and try to get out of that position asap. I also note the gender of the driver. Female drivers, I maintain more gap than usual. Ditto with teenagers and racer-boys. Quote:
Driver and passenger in the front seat (if any) also provide a lot of insight. Drivers who turn their face towards the passenger to talk to them ... I stay away. Female driver and female co-passenger, I invariably assume that they are chatting away to glory and the driver is distracted. I keep an eye out for doors that can flung open, even at traffic signals and in traffic jams. Driver sitting too close to the steering, most likely a newbie or a not-confident driver. Co-passnger not wearing seat-belt = ignorant fool and irresponsible driver Driver on phone, trying to type a SMS/whatsapp, looking up a contact number etc, I stay away. Vehicles with political-party flags, you never know to what they would take offense, I stay away. Racer-boys with modded cars, who would challenge you for a race at a signal, I dont make eye-contact. Milk-vans, I stay away (As per them, a milk-can with 50 ltrs milk is more valuable than somebody else's life). Large vehicles (bus, truck), I maintain more gap. Quote:
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On a more serious note, yes, but I dont recall observing that consistently. A vehicle that has come to a stand-still with front wheels at quite an angle, I stay away. Good possibility that the driver would forget where his wheels are pointed by the time the signal turns green. I also observe steering movements of vehicles in next lane. It tells me who is trying to sneak in my lane. Last edited by SDP : 27th August 2014 at 12:05. | ||||||
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27th August 2014, 12:03 | #24 | |||||
Distinguished - BHPian | Re: Accidents in India - PICS Quote:
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People (and men in particular) definitely may not like realizing this. But I'd rather have bruised pride than a bruised body. So, go ahead and critique us. | |||||
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27th August 2014, 12:12 | #25 | ||||||||
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| Re: Evidence-Based Driving for Safety: A Primer Quote:
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For bikes, I am not so sure. Folded mirrors aside, I have tried in vain to observe those who ride commuter bikes. The thing is this: From my 2 month riding experience on motorcycles, I am observing that quite a lot of manufacturers are giving near flat ORVM's, so it becomes very difficult to judge. My own bike, the ORVM's are adjusted for maximum visibility with least possible turn from my head. I am quite sure that my helmet won't be seen in my ORVM if you are viewing me from a car. Still trying to get the perfect adjustment, so, I guess I am not so sure yet. Quote:
Otherwise for most bikes sold in India, the riding posture remains more or less the same. The new naked bikes which are now on sale confuse me even more further as far as judging the biker is concerned. For cars, I look at a driver's posture when driving in city/towns. On the highway, not so much more than a glance, and that too only sometimes. Most of the time, I am looking far ahead. Quote:
Can't you tell from a distance only as to how a biker rides? In the sense that I can make out that a biker is driving sedately/rashly/erratically from a distance, so what additional info should I be actively looking out for? Quote:
1. The very first thing that I actively look out for in any car/bike is the tyre pressure. It's the first thing I notice, and to my belief, the most important one. Under/Over inflation are immediately registered. 2. Unless the tyres are bald / have visible cracks /visible bubbles, it's pretty difficult to judge the real condition of the tyre. I am not going to be actively seeking out the manufacturing date of a particular tyre, since majority of the time it will end up being pretty old 3. Uneven tread wear is also registered in my mind, but this can only be checked when the vehicle is stationary. On a moving vehicle, difficult to tell. 4. Mismatched tyre? It can mean a lot of things. Very difficult to tell. Plus, bikes have mismatched tyres right from factory. 5. Re-treaded tyres, I have seen these only on trucks and poorly maintained taxis. Difficult to guess in a car unless you are specifically looking out for it. Quote:
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Coming to the specific para in the quote; I see that you are from Mumbai, so, I can fully relate. It's pretty easy to do this in Mumbai, but try that in Pune/Ahmedabad. You will not be able to drive peacefully even one single day then. If you try and regulate, you/ your vehicle shall be punished. Ever tried driving in chennai with the 2 wheelers here? If I attempt to do this, I will be losing my hearing at a very early age. Thanks, Simple_cAar | ||||||||
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27th August 2014, 12:15 | #26 |
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| I notice all except 3, 4. But the point is I do not derive much scientific conclusions to aid my drive most of the time. I had a similar close shave as shown in video and I've been careful after that. Even if it hurts my pride, I dont mind if it helps me live longer. Though I had my share of accidents, I've been accident free for the past 6 years and would like continue the same further by learning and adapting. Thanks SS-Travellor for starting this thread. Last edited by Holyghost : 27th August 2014 at 12:17. |
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27th August 2014, 13:19 | #27 |
Distinguished - BHPian | Re: Evidence-Based Driving for Safety: A Primer Thanks for the responses. Keep them pouring in. I'll take one question at a time in the meanwhile, and explain the reason(s) behind the question. 1. Do you check whether the brake lamps of the vehicle ahead are working or not, as soon as you are behind him? How? It is only in India that it is NOT illegal to have failed running lights, brake lights and headlights - there is no prosecution done by the cops for non-working lights. As a result, some 50% of trucks and 20-25% of cars and bikes happily drive around without working brake lamps - this is based on a few surveys I did over the last few months, counting the total number of these vehicles on the highways, versus those who did not have working brake lights. As for 2-wheelers, brake lamps are sometimes masked by luggage strung up over the rear light unit, or the pillion-riding lady's saree draped elegantly over it. It is now a habit for me to check if brake lamps work on the vehicle in front. At a traffic light, in a jam, or at all times when brake lights of adjacent vehicles are lit up and those of the one in front of me do not light up, I assume non-working lights. Remember that the brake lamps are your primary means of communication with the vehicle behind you when you are travelling in a straight line. Asking a tailgater to slow down, communicating a hazard ahead, or making sure the driver/rider behind understands your intentions well in time - are all communicable through the brake lights. Switching on the brake lamps does not necessarily mean you should also slow down yourself, unless you need to - touching the brake pedal is enough to light up those lamps, without activating the hydraulics. Keep a lookout for brake lamps of not only the vehicle ahead of you, but of those even 3 cars ahead of you, and cars on either side of you. You can do that through the windscreen of the car in front, past the crowd of 2-wheelers hemming you in, or at night when you can see the reflection of the brake lamp on the road under the truck you are following (and hopefully not tailgating). When someone's brake lights come on 2-3 cars ahead, that is an early warning for you - don't wait for the vehicle immediately ahead to apply his brakes, before you do. As a precautionary measure, move your foot from A-pedal to B-pedal already - and touch the pedal only enough to light up your own brake lamps, warning the car behind to slow down. Expert drivers can do this with the left foot too, but I wouldn't recommend it here. When the brake lights of the car slightly ahead of you light up, it would be time to shift your focus to question 5. Let me repeat that question here once again: 5. Can a vehicle's wheels (both front and rear) convey any message/evidence to you? |
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27th August 2014, 14:14 | #28 | |
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| Re: Accidents in India - PICS Quote:
A biker riding at higher speeds cannot hear ordinary company fitted single horns at safe distances. If it is a windy day, then its even more difficult to hear horns. Only when the car comes dangerously close and honks , does the biker hear it. So my 1st suggestion is get a pair of horns which are not very harsh sounding yet do the job of alerting the biker you are overtaking. Ideally get the "skoda" horns ( the local name for trumpet or fanfare horns). Next , don't honk in regular beeps. It just disappears in urban India's regular racket. Honk in odd sounding tones/intervals. Just sound different from everyone around you. This one may sound weird, but I definitely vouch for it. | |
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27th August 2014, 21:34 | #29 |
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| I mean no offence but then I also see if it's a female driver. Not coz of the popular notion that they are bad drivers but then due to my observation that female drivers normally have kids in front Co-passenger seat or they are chatting with someone next to her which makes her focus on the drive that much lesser and many times more dangerous for the tailing vehicle. Most times she may forget signaling her proposed turns or maybe she will brake suddenly for something that she may have not seen/observed earlier. Not to mention the sudden speed bursts they break into to avoid the glares of other drivers. |
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27th August 2014, 21:50 | #30 | |
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| Re: Evidence-Based Driving for Safety: A Primer There's a lot of food for thought in this thread so far. I mentioned elsewhere that I had a girlfriend who was a better driver than me. The secret was that she observed more and therefore anticipated more. These are the prerequisites to reacting correctly. Quote:
Actually, my gender stereotyping tends to be the opposite. As a woman on a scooter cut right across me the other day, I said to my wife, "I expect more sense from a woman!" But as to the things women always do... forget it. There is not one thing there that men do not do also, probably in equal measure. I have, in the past, said that one difference is women tend to be less aggressive, but sadly, I'm not sure that that is true. Last edited by Thad E Ginathom : 27th August 2014 at 21:58. | |
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