[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by jagzrk

Please put yourself in my shoes and suggest a safe car for a budget up to 3.5 lac.

I do agree that at 3.5L, there is no safe automobile that you could buy in India.

Originally Posted by Altocumulus

But still you see in this range the highest seller is still Swift Vxi though there are other cars available in the market with some Safety kits.

It is interesting that most Indians cannot afford cars, but the highest selling variants in the Maruti lineup are the VXi and VDi, and NOT the LXi and LDi.

Affordability becomes an issue while choosing between the V and the Z variants, but not while choosing between the L and V variants.

And I find it attrocious that people garnish VXis and VDis with alloys, power amps, chrome grills and racing stripes and call it a sporty version. Talk about affordability.

[sun_king]

In October 2014 Maruti sold 65600+ pieces of the Alto, Wagon, Swift and Dzire. Generously assuming that 60% of it were not having ABS and Airbags, its a staggering 39000+ units without these safety options. Ban the sale of these and Maruti will magically find a way to make them affordable again. I wouldn't be surprised to see Maruti 800 Standard come out with ABS and two airbags with with a marginal price increase of 15 to 20K (perhaps even less), that is maybe a 250 INR EMI increase, the cost of a small family meal or a movie for two on a weekday.

[carwatcher]

Maruti goes to any extent to keep the costs low. Eg. No Left side ORVMs etc. on Omni (gives them as a feature on Limited Edition models). So what can you expect.
The classic example is removal of ABS from Celerio while the same was available on A-Star. Agreed that maybe AMT might had better engine braking vis-a-vis A-Star's conventional AT but it proved that how 'alert' Maruti was that even by mistake they didn't forget to remove that.
It also reflects the costing pressure under which a company works.

Now on each and every thread 'safety' is discussed from each and every angle. This thread is all about ABS and Airbags while the main and basic problem as per me is the Structural Safety of the car which needs to be addressed first.

[canonball]

Unsure if this is covered in previous posts but the govt should apply 0% duty on airbags, abs, stability control, esp, and other safety features say for 3 years (tax holiday) with caveat to localise the supply of these items failing which the duty comes into effect post 3 years

[TheLizardKing]

Originally Posted by carwatcher

Agreed that maybe AMT might had better engine braking vis-a-vis A-Star's conventional AT but it proved that how 'alert' Maruti was that even by mistake they didn't forget to remove that.

You COMPLETELY lost me there my friend!

What does engine braking have to do with ABS, and pray what does the transmission have to do with engine braking?

I've never driven an AT, so I guess I'm missing something here...

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by TheLizardKing

You COMPLETELY lost me there my friend!

What does engine braking have to do with ABS, and pray what does the transmission have to do with engine braking?

I've never driven an AT, so I guess I'm missing something here...

Friend, unfortunately that's how logic gets screwed up in the process of justifying one's view! According to carwatcher, ABS was provided by MSIL to compensate for the lack of engine braking in a conventional automatic transmission, as in the A-Star. However, IMO its absurd to say so. ABS isn't a solution for compensating something like engine braking. It was invented for a different purpose. Just because the celerio got AMT, ABS was not removed like it was a chance not to miss. Please look into the technicality sir, before you claim why it was done.

Coming to the actual reason, the A-star got ABS in automatic, the Celerio didn't get ABS in AMT because of the same reason - Cost cutting. Remember, A-Star never sold well, and it was being built for export. So the Automatic version with ABS was just sold for the sake of having an AT in the portfolio. Removing a complex setup like ABS just for the Indian market given the low numbers it would sell was never worth the effort. So they let it sell with ABS. Suppose they wanted to junk ABS and save 10-15k per car, which would have sold maybe 100 cars a month, they had to spend on R&D and employ people to redesign the wiring harness, braking system, ECU, so on. Feasibility surveys would have bombed. Hence, they decided "Let go, our cash cows are elsewhere"

Coming to celerio, as we can see, they wanted to cut down costs on the AMT. Also the projected sales was decent enough to command a customised version aka Vxi-AMT. Hence, both the cases are related to cost cutting itself. That's how MSIL designs strategy. Don't invest on product R&D if the returns aren't promising.

[shady_lawyer]

Originally Posted by Altocumulus

Its utter rubbish that people cannot afford a 30k price premium. Also if all cars start having ABS and Airbags the prices would go down due to the sheer volume and demand.

This is true, simple economies of scale, would drastically lower component costs. Interestingly enough after having posted this, I came across something GTO'd said in a completely different post. Apparently the demand for the Swift V+ABS option was very low. This is a vicious cycle, the manufacturer prefers that the customer not know better, and therefore demand better products. If we don't demand, the manufacturer does not have to provide. Only knowledge can break this, and for that a systemic change is required. [Maruti used to offer ABS as a Rs. 20,000 option on the 1st-gen Swift (VXi / VDi variants). Shocking that the number of customers opting for the same were in single digits (% terms)-this is GTO's post (sorry mods don't know how to quote that thread here)] I have just pasted this to demonstrate as to just how far we are to go, before we can mature as an automobile market. We need the safety features.

Originally Posted by anuragn

Taking the example of Swift (in the first post), Maruti is charging Rs 1.58 lakh extra for safety feature + some extras, namely (1) Front and Rear Headrests (2) Rear defogger & (3) rear wiper.
Lets assume cost of above extras to be appx 20K (5K + 5K +5K + overheads). So in effect, we are paying Rs. 1.38 lakhs extra just for safety features!

Voila! There you go, in sum my entire argument. Thank you.

Originally Posted by TheLizardKing

It is pretty clear to most Team BHPians here what the situation in India today is like - the manufacturers are shameless, the average customer is clueless, and the government seems to be spineless.
may God keep us petrolheads safe on Indian streets.

Amen to the prayer. But let us try to push our next purchase to be equipped with safety features if we can afford to do so. Let's influence our friends to give safety features a thought. To quote the vernacular "rasri awat jawat se sil par parat nishan"

Originally Posted by carwatcher

Maruti goes to any extent to keep the costs low. Eg. No Left side ORVMs etc. on Omni (gives them as a feature on Limited Edition models). So what can you expect.
The classic example is removal of ABS from Celerio while the same was available on A-Star.

Yes, a friend of mine from Germany on a brief visit here, innocently asked me whether Lady Eowyn's [My Alto] left orvm had been lost to Indian roads. I have no idea about the AMT so I'll leave that to the experts. About structural integrity however, I agree, but honestly, if we as a buying public can't get our manufacturers to give us something as basic as an Airbag+ABS; I hate saying this, asking for better structure strength is like asking for the moon! It's a personal opinion, not an approval of such a practice by the manufacturers.
Let's hope that this groundswell makes a difference.

Cheers!
Shady

[carwatcher]

Thanks a ton for enlightening me both of you.

Actually I was under wrong impression which was due to incorrect interpretation on my part about lack of Engine Braking mentioned in the A-Star Auto - Road Test Thread which I read few months ago when we just purchased the A-Star A/T for my wife.

So all I can say is that, we learn something new everyday on T-BHP.

Originally Posted by TheLizardKing

You COMPLETELY lost me there my friend!
What does engine braking have to do with ABS, and pray what does the transmission have to do with engine braking?
I've never driven an AT, so I guess I'm missing something here...

Originally Posted by audioholic

Friend, unfortunately that's how logic gets screwed up in the process of justifying one's view!

[turboturtle]

Originally Posted by canonball

Unsure if this is covered in previous posts but the govt should apply 0% duty on airbags, abs, stability control, esp, and other safety features say for 3 years (tax holiday) with caveat to localise the supply of these items failing which the duty comes into effect post 3 years

Completely agree - if the government intends to sincerely pursue to implementation it's new safety mandate, it should start with sops to ensure that the end customer doesn't end up paying through his nose for this mandate.

Originally Posted by shady_lawyer

This is true, simple economies of scale, would drastically lower component costs.

True - I really don't think the prices will increase (or need to) by 30000 to 35000 for entry variants. Taking into account that there are 35000 Altos (0 safety kit now) & Wagon-Rs (1 driver airbag in top end optional) sold every month on average, if the safety kits need to fitted are produced locally (as against the current importing trend), the prices will definitely come down - and I am only talking about Maruti. I am sure that the car companies can form an alliance based manufacturing churning out safety kit for multiple brands under one roof as OEM which will further help bring down costs.

If the car companies are really keen on providing safety kits in the right spirit rather than just meeting the norms, there are ways and means in which they can make it less wallet pinching for the end consumer. What remains to be seen is - will they do it

[promit]

Originally Posted by RavSam

Here is one car model that I can think of where between two variants can give a picture of how much a manufacturer charges for safety variants:
.
.
.
Hence, Honda charges Rs. 42K for 2 Airbags and Rs.12K for ABS to customers as far as Amaze model is concerned.

Another good example is the Hyundai Grand i10. At the time of my purchase the ex-showroom price difference between the Asta & Asta(O) was ~30k.
The Asta(O) added dual airbags, ABS and a different finish on the wheels, over the Asta variant.
Although, I don't know if Hyundai absorbs some of the cost, to prevent it being priced higher and overlap with the i20 prices.

[RavSam]

Originally Posted by promit

Another good example is the Hyundai Grand i10. At the time of my purchase the ex-showroom price difference between the Asta & Asta(O) was ~30k.
The Asta(O) added dual airbags, ABS and a different finish on the wheels, over the Asta variant.
Although, I don't know if Hyundai absorbs some of the cost, to prevent it being priced higher and overlap with the i20 prices.

Hyundai will definitely not "absorb" the cost! Unless the folks at Hyundai 'feel' that they would want to absorb some cost as a token of love and affection for people opting for the top-end Asta(O) variant.
They know that people will go for Asta variant because it has all the bells and whistles except the (what is the need for that?) Airbags and ABS.
So, you can see that the Asta variant is overpriced compared to Asta (O).

[Turbo car]

Guys,
after commenting in and also reading through the whole thread, i find that we as Indians have not be able to shed the "Value For Money" consciousness that has marked our society from the rest of the world.
Unfortunately, this psyche has spilled over in the consumer buying process of cars, and this has "forced" auto makers to cut costs in form of critical safety features to add cosmetic features. The mind set is that we Indians believe that we own the road and accidents can only happen to the next guy and not us.

More over, the real value of ABS, ESP, Air bags etc come to the forefront in event of an accident only, as since most of them drive around without one in their entire lifetime, they feel that the money spend on cosmetics of a car is value than ones spend on features they wont ever use.

What most of us has sought to ignore is the entry of millions of new drivers on the Indian roads in the past few decades. As we all know, the driver's licencing mechanism in India is a sad joke in comparison to other developed countries, and as a result the level of knowledge and skill of drivers on road has radically declined.

This coupled with poor roads, heavy increase in number of cars and pathetic road signs, all results in a deadly situation wherein any driver on road, however careful or skilled he is, is equally susceptible to an accident as the imbecile driver on the next lane. The relevance of ABS and Airbags is much more now than in the eighties where in Maruthi launched its 800. Don't forget that we pay more for the same model of car than our European brethren; and end up with less features.

Unless it is made mandatory that all cars sold in the country now need to have ABS and Airbags, we as a nation wont opt for cars with higher safety features voluntarily.

We may buy a sandalwood idol of our favorite deity costing thousands of rupees and keep it in the car for good luck, but god forbid, we would opt for a higher model with ABS, Air bags, ESP etc. Andaaz apna apna...

[i10]

Originally Posted by Turbo car

Guys,
after commenting in and also reading through the whole thread, i find that we as Indians have not be able to shed the "Value For Money" consciousness that has marked our society from the rest of the world.

An interesting point indeed. Take the care of insurance. Many people do NOT opt for term insurance simply because they won't get anything if they survive. So they end up investing in policies which give paltry insurance covers along with investment option for exorbitant premiums (ULIPs etc)

[wilful]

(Slightly OT but fairly relevant as far as the discussion on safety features goes)

English Star Footballer David Beckham and his son were involved in a major accident recently when their Audi RS6 hit a Mitsubishi Colt head on. Fortunately there were no fatalties. The safety features did their job this time.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...-car-accident/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...senal-16s.html

[wilful]

The tragic accident in Mumbai yesterday strongly underlines the importance of safety features like airbags. I quote below an extract from TOI about the accident-

"An RTO officer who examined the accident site and the vehicles involved said that looking at the impact, it seemed that both vehicles were at high speed, with the Audi clocking at least 120kmph. He said Janhavi escaped injuries or death because of her car's airbags."

Link to the article -

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/47607933.cms

Of course it is not an infallible armour in an accident but in certain situations, can save lives.