[ecenandu]

Two people got killed and 3 injured in an accident near Chengannur, Kerala

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UI9nmc5nz8

[arjithin]

Driver was inside the car when the tree fell on top, but he reclined the car seat all the way down, just 5 minutes before the storm to take some rest, and escaped miraculously!!

Source (in Malayalam)

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by aveemashfaq

What car did your mother drive? Those cars with non boosted brakes do require a heavy foot to bring the car to a halt. I drive a 660kg maruti 800 with non-boosted brake and I have to push hard to do an emergency brake. I tried non boosted brakes in 1095 kg getz and I had to put my entire 100 kgs on the brakes to normally stop it. No wonder your mother used both legs on the brakes.

No, I meant that she used both feet: one on the clutch! Which was what was under discussion at the time.

At the end of her life, she drove a little Nissan Micra. Servo assisted brakes. When did these come into use? My parents (Dad born 1913) very likely experienced cars without them, just as they learned to change gear without syncromesh. There has been servo assist on every car I have touched the brake pedal of. Yes, with the engine off, it is very hard work, and I would hate to think of applying that much pressure every time.

ABS on gravel and sand: it is not that it makes things worse, but it does not make them better! It doesn't do much on ice either.

[aveemashfaq]

Originally Posted by binand

You could also try my "trick" - just go behind the car before entering it and observe the general conditions of the route you need to take in reverse.

Ture, even I do that. Whenever I walk to my car, I inspect every corner before getting in.

Originally Posted by Blur

My brother's Ciaz has the reverse sensors-camera combo. I believe that works best. As rightly pointed out by some, the sensors could beep to kingdom come even if it's a roadside bush near the bumper, but the camera will show you exactly what it is.

Add the ORVMs to this, pointed just behind the rear wheel of your car, and you can avoid any ditches that might be lurking out there. Know this from personal experience. Was backing up near one recently. A guy could see I was, but didn't make any move to warn me. In the end I managed on my own!

Also it's a good habit to manually inspect all sides of your car before moving out of a spot you had parked at a while ago. Umpteen times have found brilliant biker dudes parked within inches of my rear bumper, who would naturally be invisible from inside the car.

It was me who pointed out the camera thing. And man are those bikers very irritating. They seriously prove to be a headache because you have to pull bikes out of the way, take your car out and then put the bikes back. The biggest nuisance is at my home. Just opposite to my home is the house of an architect and people come to visit his house. My car is parked outside my house where there is shade. Almost everyone who come to his house park inches away to my car to get the best of the shade they can find. Such a nuisance because the front of his house is always empty and the front of my house always littered with bikes surrounding my car.

But the point I was trying to tell earlier is also this. In modern car, all the bikes disappear but in my maruti, I can see the handlebar of a parked bike.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

No, I meant that she used both feet: one on the clutch! Which was what was under discussion at the time.

At the end of her life, she drove a little Nissan Micra. Servo assisted brakes. When did these come into use? My parents (Dad born 1913) very likely experienced cars without them, just as they learned to change gear without syncromesh. There has been servo assist on every car I have touched the brake pedal of. Yes, with the engine off, it is very hard work, and I would hate to think of applying that much pressure every time.

ABS on gravel and sand: it is not that it makes things worse, but it does not make them better! It doesn't do much on ice either.

Maruti 800 till I guess 2000 came with unassisted brakes. Same with Omni. But in all fairness, these are very light cars 600 kgs and you do not need much pressure on the brake. The brakes are definitely not as light as the servo assisted brakes but to stop in time, you don't have to stand on them. In sudden brakes, the braking force is like applying force to a foot pump to fill air into the car.

About the discussion of braking with clutch or without it, I think the former makes more sense. If when you apply brakes, your car tyres can lock up, it means that the car brakes are capable enough by themselves to stop the car. So engine braking is redundant. Engine braking might reduce the load applied on the B pedal, but that's about the only advantage, theoretically.

However, when you come to practical side, things are different. Brakes become hot and loose their braking ability. So, in situations where you use the brakes so very often, it is useful to let the brakes cool down and use engine braking instead.

For instance, when going down a ghat road, don't hold the clutch and coast down with occasional application of brakes. Put it in 3rd or 4th gear and modulate the A pedal to maintain speed. If necessary, don't refrain from using brakes but stay cautious not to overcook the brakes because overcoooking can lead to brake failure.

Also, when you are in traffic, since you will be doing a lot of braking, don't hold the clutch and brake on every instance. When you have to slow down for a stop gradually, ease of the accelerator and let the car slow down. When the car slows down enough, apply brakes.

I usually use engine braking even on highways. Whenever I am at a distance from an obstacle, I let go of my A pedal slowly that the car can decelerate. When I am close to the obstacle, then I use clutch + brakes. I think there is nothing better than clutch + brakes in emergency.

Using engine braking in emergency situations might also be dangerous because our brakes apply force evenly to all brakes whereas engine braking only brakes a set of front or rear wheels depending on your car. So, one set of wheels might lock up while the other might just be ineffective. I think we should refrain from engine braking then. Also, passengers would poo in their pants if they hear engine revving to max in emergency situations.

I also don't think that ABS is better than expert braking under any situations. That is the reason why rally cars do not have ABS. There is a concept called static friction and dynamic friction. When a body is at rest, the force you need to apply to make it move, lets say is 10 Newtons. But, when the body starts to move, the friction is only 8 Newtons.

When a tyre rolls, the tyre patch has static friction with the road surface because the tyre does not slip w.r.t the ground. Then there is more frictional force holding the tyre to the ground and hence more effective braking. When the tyre is slipping (car is skidding),dynamic friction acts and so braking is less effective. Hence modulating the brakes just to the limit is more effective than any ABS or other technology.

An ABS module cannot modulate brakes so that they just don't slip. It only intervenes for millisecond so that our brakes can unlock and get some traction so that when you turn the steering, the car can actually take a turn. But thinking ABS brakes stops car better is foolish. ABS helps in the case of noobs (no offence to anyone) who just slam the brakes in an emergency to steer them away from an accident but does not aid in braking if you are an expert.

ABS also helps in the case of noobs (again, no offence) who slam their brakes. When you slam the brakes, your dynamic friction is lower and so by releasing the brakes for a millisecond, you are re-engaging the brake and until the next lockup in the next millisecond, you have static friction. So, ABS definitely helps. But, if you can modulate the brakes, you have static friction throughout and you can stop even faster.

ABS helps to take turn in panic braking and is better than locking up wheels but if you can modulate your brakes, you are always better than ABS.

Also, on gravel surfaces or snow, you might want to turn off the ABS because the loose stones means the ABS sensor thinks that we are loosing traction and cuts off the brakes leaving the car rolling on the loose gravel happily. If you lock up, the tyre will bury past the loose surface and anchor itself to the ground providing better braking.

You can read more here http://www.sdt.com.au/safedrive-directory-ABSBRAKES.htm

[prithm]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

No, I meant that she used both feet: one on the clutch! Which was what was under discussion at the time.

At the end of her life, she drove a little Nissan Micra. Servo assisted brakes. When did these come into use? My parents (Dad born 1913) very likely experienced cars without them, just as they learned to change gear without syncromesh. There has been servo assist on every car I have touched the brake pedal of. Yes, with the engine off, it is very hard work, and I would hate to think of applying that much pressure every time.

ABS on gravel and sand: it is not that it makes things worse, but it does not make them better! It doesn't do much on ice either.

So glad to hear that you mom was a car enthusiast too Thad. She must have seen and experienced the successive generations of cars in her lifetime which is a blessing.

Regarding the clutch + brake and clutch - brake debate, why is the point of undue stress on engine by performing engine braking not discussed ?

Two scenarios for this case:

Case : I have to stop at a point that I am aware of and fully aware of traffic behind and in front. Which scenario will any of you recommend ?

Scenario 1 : I gently depress the clutch pedal and allow the car to go in free roll, gently press the brakes and come to eased stop. The traffic behind me will know for sure that I am going to stop because they will see my tail lights go on, but my car is decelerating at a pace that is not sudden but gradual.

Scenario 2 : I remove my foot from accelerator and car starts to do engine braking and when I know for sure that knocking and jerking will start, I mildly press the brakes and then go for usual clutch and then gear change. Until this moment, the brakes are not engaged so the traffic behind me is not going to know what I am upto. And my engine will be consuming fuel at a pace that is influenced by the road gradient. But the brake pads will not be consumed since engine is doing its job.

Which scenario is right ?

[shajoshi]

Originally Posted by shajoshi

I will strongly vote for a PIL for pedestrian safety - to ban all after market accessories like Bull Bars, side steps that jut outside vehicles. It is crazy to see even 1510 Tata trucks owned by sand mafia having bullbars - they think it is a cosmetic add on. In addition they compromise Airbag like active safety devices as well for the occupants of vehicles.

Maybe we should think of a PIL for banning bullbar like accessories. That makes much more sense than the stupid ban on sun-film in a hot country like India.

[madhavgpai]

This is not an accident (yet).

But look at the stupidity.
Audio is in regional language though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgfeIzqmniI

[alavandar]

Originally Posted by arighna.dutta

:-( Actually to begin with the pick-up guy should have stopped, visually checked and then proceeded to the primary section.
:-(

I agree. My friend who lives in NZ said, in NZ , any vehicle joining a T junction, it s mandatory to stop, wait for min. 30 second to see traffic from left and right, even if the roads are empty both sides. If any violations of this rule caught on camera, fine will be levied.

Originally Posted by shajoshi

Maybe we should think of a PIL for banning bullbar like accessories. That makes much more sense than the stupid ban on sun-film in a hot country like India.

The genesis of banning sun films started from incidents of abduction and rapes inside maruti 800 van in Delhi about say, 15 years back. Courts heavily came down, not on rapists, but on the car owners with sun films. Do not ask me what happened to the rapists. They must be wandering free released on technical grounds or for lack of evidence!!

[pratyush6]

Originally Posted by Pferdestarke

Yes indeed! He was doing it very diligently but the child walked into the path abruptly (pretty hard for him to see her coming).

The one who gets the blame here is kid's parents for leaving her unattended while playing.
!

Though the onus of keeping your kids safe rests solely on parents - one has to be careful while driving around kids. Also, in this case, the driver wasn't probably expecting the kid to be running back, but he ideally should be.

As a general rule, while driving through narrow roads (specially in colonies) one has to expect a child running onto the road and drive according to that.

Reminds me of an incident (or a non-incident) when I was driving in my community back to my parking and this girl comes literally flying around. Unfortunately it is that time of the evening where the lights are off and visibility is poor, plus the girl is wearing dark clothes - Fortunately for her (and me) I drive slow and expect kids to do such antics, but still I am barely able to see her and stop in the nick of time. She carried on without any care, while I had my heart in my mouth

In this case, if the driver noticed (and he should have) the kids on the right, he should have been much more careful.

[AutoIndian]

Originally Posted by prithm

Two scenarios for this case: Case : I have to stop at a point that I am aware of and fully aware of traffic behind and in front. Which scenario will any of you recommend ?

Although this could be here in this accident thread, let me try to answer your query with the practice that I follow:

Scenario 1 : I gently depress the clutch pedal and allow the car to go in free roll, gently press the brakes and come to eased stop. The traffic behind me will know for sure that I am going to stop because they will see my tail lights go on, but my car is decelerating at a pace that is not sudden but gradual.

Press the clutch pedal only when you are going to change the gear or you anticipate a gear change. Never apply the brakes after pressing the clutch pedal. When you press the clutch pedal, what you are doing is essentially cutting off the the transmission from the engine, hence engine braking won't be available in this scenarios and your brakes will be overworked or won't be that effective, due to zero assistance from engine braking. Hence try to avoid this scenario.

Scenario 2 : I remove my foot from accelerator and car starts to do engine braking and when I know for sure that knocking and jerking will start, I mildly press the brakes and then go for usual clutch and then gear change. Until this moment, the brakes are not engaged so the traffic behind me is not going to know what I am upto. And my engine will be consuming fuel at a pace that is influenced by the road gradient. But the brake pads will not be consumed since engine is doing its job.

Which scenario is right ?

This scenario is right almost 90%. You can make it 100% by following this practice. You would lift your foot off the throttle when you want to slow down or decelerate. However when you do that traffic following you won't know that you are slowing down. Hence gently tap on the brake pedal (with only so much pressure that the brake light would lit up, but there would be very little force on brake disc/drum) indicating your intention for traffic behind to slow down or stop. Then go for usual clutch and then gear change. That way brake pads/discs won't get consumed unnecessarily, traffic behind will get alerted in time and your transmission and engine will also be happy .

[Thad E Ginathom]

This may be going off topic, but can be about preventing accidents!

Engine braking is always the way to go, and as AutoIndian has just said, press the clutch pedal only when changing gear or just before the engine would stall when stopping.

This is one of the few things on which I think my driving-guru father was somewhat mistaken when he told me, "break pads cost less than gear boxes." Or I might remember the words but not the full context.

Aren't the dynamics of a car slowing under engine breaking different? Isn't there less of the weight-thrown-forward effect? It's too long since I thought about this; I should google-refresh my memory --- but my understanding is that a car under engine braking is more stable and more under control.

ABS is an ongoing controversy, because people believe they can do better than it can. I don't: but let that one be in one of the more appropriate threads. In this thread, though, I think it can be said that misunderstanding ABS is dangerous. How many people think, "My car has ABS: I can brake later and less!" No, that is not the case at all. My attitude to ABS is to buy it and forget it: it does not change the way I drive at all. Like seat belts, hopefully it will do its job in a real emergency. And those that regularly experience the feel of ABS working during "normal" driving must be very heavy-footed indeed, and more likely to have a real emergency.

Off-topic, yes, my mum was an enthusiastic and skilled driver. One of the most prized possessions of her life was a white, red-hooded, Ford Consul convertible. That would have been mid sixties. During my lifetime, I think they had just one body-work-required accident each. My dad had had a fairly serious bike accident before I was born and never drove a two-wheeler again. I think it might have been on the race track.

[Shanksta]

Clearly the bikers fault! The cammer luckily managed to control his bike. Looks like the biker that crashed had not strapped his helmet, lucky for him it flew off only after saving his head.

Looks like a case of target fixation, he seems to have froze seeing the Innova and hits rear brakes and skids straight into the Innova.

I hope the cabbie was not harassed for no fault of his.

https://youtu.be/Zm2RaZwa0Ew

Note from Mod: Adding Animated GIF for those who can't view Youtube at work:

[lohithrao]

A decade back going to Nandi hills on weekends/holidays was risky, thanks to irresponsible people. am sure now its much worse.

Originally Posted by Shanksta

Clearly the bikers fault! The cammer luckily managed to control his bike. Looks like the biker that crashed had not strapped his helmet, lucky for him it flew off only after saving his head.

[mustang_shelby]

Originally Posted by Shanksta

Clearly the bikers fault!

+1. The biker seems to be speeding downhill and couldn't avoid drifting into the Innova's lane at the curve. The Innova was driving correctly in its lane, and to its credit, the driver even veered as much left as he could to prevent the collision.

[ecenandu]

Originally Posted by aveemashfaq

ABS also helps in the case of noobs (again, no offence) who slam their brakes. When you slam the brakes, your dynamic friction is lower and so by releasing the brakes for a millisecond, you are re-engaging the brake and until the next lockup in the next millisecond, you have static friction. So, ABS definitely helps. But, if you can modulate the brakes, you have static friction throughout and you can stop even faster.

So, in a panic situation it is better to calculate the static friction and modulate the brakes yourselves than rely on ABS. What if my two wheels are on gravel and two wheels on the tarmac?