Team-BHP - Accidents in India

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORTified (Post 4081927)

Something didn't add up for me here... For that to happen at 40KM, the car should be made of cardboard. And XUV is a strong and heavy vehicle. Isn't it?

I too am wondering the same. The speed at the point of impact should be at around 40kmph. But there is too much of cabin intrusion. I thought XUV500s were built safer. I had almost bought this car before settling on a Creta diesel top end, hence my concern. Any idea what its NCAP ratings are?

Quote:

Originally Posted by manipal (Post 4081721)

It was a relaxed drive with family,on that day, I had set the cruise control to 80kmph,not even a drop of rain or fog, around 830 pm, just an hour or so to reach Bangalore, road having a gradual incline, Suddenly out of the blue, there was some smoke on the road....

My next reaction, slammed brakes, tyres screeching,tried to steer the car onto the central road divider, then it was a big thud hitting both the truck and the divider on the right side. With car loosing all electricals and stalled, ...

Sorry to hear about the nasty shunt. I hope everyone is safe and sound without any major injuries.

When you get some time, please share some additional insights into the accident:
1. What was approx speed at the time of impact?
2. The XUV seems like a W8. Did the front airbags got deployed? From the pics it looks like they didn't.
3. Was the point of impact along the diagonal of the car?
4. From the last pic, the pipe on which the dashboard is mounted seems to have broken and it seems the dashboard got pushed into the front seats. Hope there were no leg injuries.
5. Did any part of the engine bay breached the firewall boundary and pushed/protruded into the passenger cabin at the front?

Again, glad that you are safe! :thumbs up

Quote:

Originally Posted by manipal (Post 4081721)

..
vehicle surveyed and recommended for total loss.
..

Dear manipal,

Sorry to see this. I hope personally you are okay.

The thumb rule that I try to use is: drive in such a manner that the braking distance is less than visibility.
Please don't think that I am criticizing your driving. This could easily have happened to me too! I have hit a dog that came out of hiding from behind a car!

Regards,

Girish Mahajan

Quote:

Originally Posted by manipal (Post 4081721)

Suddenly out of the blue, there was some smoke on the road, nothing threatening, so my reactions was to switch the cruise off, lightly applying the brakes, switching off the high beam as it aided better vision. Next second the smoke turns so black that i was blinded, so applied a bit more pressure on the brakes, there was a mild curve to the right which i did negotiate and then i see a huge truck which was crawling at around 20kmph, with no rear lights, reflective sticker, emitting dark smoke from behind (usually trucks have exhausts on to the right side). My next reaction, slammed brakes, tyres screeching,tried to steer the car onto the central road divider, then it was a big thud hitting both the truck and the divider on the right side. With car loosing all electricals and stalled, the truck ahead still crawling ahead and driving off with black smoke as if nothing has happened, this is it, vehicle surveyed and recommended for total loss. I just want to say to all from my experience, whenever there is smoke on the road, just remember my episode. For a second I did not relate the smoke to be from a truck, as I have never seen such dense, blinding smoke in my driving experience over 2,00,000Kms.

My sympathies. I hope nobody got hurt in the accident.

A very similar situation is usually witnessed at this time of the year in the paddy growing area in Punjab, Haryana and Western UP where the paddy straw is usually burned in the fields. A few things I do in advance when I see the smoke from afar:

Switch off the air conditioning even if it is in re-circulation mode
Switch on low beams and fog lamps
Keep speed while being in the balloon of smoke around 20 - 30 kmph
Since fear of getting rear ended on a highway is very real in such situations, press brakes lightly enough occasionally for the brake lights to glow to warn vehicles behind you

For anyone experiencing this for the first time, it usually appears that the smoke might not hamper visibility much , but as soon as one enters the balloon of smoke, visibility goes for a toss and panic sets in if the speed is too high. Many years ago, I had to learn this the hard way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manipal (Post 4081721)

It was a relaxed drive with family

Hope no one was injured and from the fact that you didn't mention about it means it is safe to assume that all is well.:thumbs up

First thing one should do at the first sight of any kind of smoke is to hit the brakes unless someone is tailgating you at high speeds. All other stuff comes later like, switching the lights to low beam, cruise control off and so on.

Good that you were traveling in an SUV and not a low slung sedan - that would have been worst.

Still I am surprised to see XUV totalling in such a crash with relative speed of 30-40kmph.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORTified (Post 4081927)

Something didn't add up for me here. But, the damage to the bonnet, engine, cabin and pillars doesn't look like a 40KMPH hit. The entire dash board is sitting in the passenger seat. For that to happen at 40KM, the car should be made of cardboard. And XUV is a strong and heavy vehicle. Isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by neutralgrey (Post 4081935)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDP (Post 4081956)

When you get some time, please share some additional insights into the accident: 1. What was approx speed at the time of impact? 2. The XUV seems like a W8. Did the front airbags got deployed? From the pics it looks like they didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_skyliner (Post 4082017)

Still I am surprised to see XUV totalling in such a crash with relative speed of 30-40kmph.

Remember that this is a high riding truck with no under-run bar. The entire impact energy was absorbed by the bonnet of XUV500. You see so much damage and cabin intrusion because the truck bypassed the crumple zones. And that's why the airbags did not activate either.

And I'm speaking from experience here. This is my old Optra after getting up, close and personal with a bus (impact speed between 20 or 30 kmph).

Accidents in India | Pics & Videos-dsc02306.jpg

Accidents in India | Pics & Videos-dsc02305.jpg

PS: The sad looking guy is a bystander, not me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORTified (Post 4081927)

The entire dash board is sitting in the passenger seat.
For that to happen at 40KM, the car should be made of cardboard. And XUV is a strong and heavy vehicle. Isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by suresh_gs (Post 4081933)

.... Just like we are all ready to blame the build quality of cars, poor road conditions, why dont we all stand united to point the finger on the poor driving quality of the driver as the major factor for all accidents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neutralgrey (Post 4081935)

...there is too much of cabin intrusion. I thought XUV500s were built safer.

Well, the XUV is certainly not made of cardboard.
In the absence of under-run protection at the back of the truck (as it is apparent from the damages), the XUV has ploughed directly onto the rigid chassis of the truck and taken a direct hit right below the base of the left A-pillar, bypassing all the crumple zones.

Unfortunately no car however well built can cope with a direct hit to the pillar from a truck chassis.
In fact the "relateively" higher stance of the XUV, compared to a car, avoided a direct hit on the piller and going further under the truck.

From the pics, its quite scary to see the entire dashboard right on the passenger seat. Hopefully, no one was sitting there.

The XUV received a respectable 4 star safety rating in ANCP in 2012, but we can never be sure that the same structural integrity is maintained for the ones sold in our country. I have serious doubts on the structural integrity of most cars that are sold in India. From most of the earlier scenarios involving XUVs, they don't seem to fare well in collisions.

It is becoming more an more apparent that manufacturers are compromising structural integrity for the models targeted to Indian market, because the system allows them to get away with it and because the buyers don't base their purchase decision on safety rating. For most of the buyers, they would prefer to buy a "cardboard" with lots of bells and whistles. Safety comes lower on majority of the buyer's priority.

We are still a country new to car ownership (on a mass scale) and awareness will build up gradually. Slowly but surely things will change for the better.:thumbs up

(link)

With all this analysis around manipal's accident pics, even at the risk of being a bit off-topic, I would like to ask a question:

You are standing on your brakes and trying to steer away from the truck ahead. At one point of time, you realize that the hit is inevitable. At this point, should one correct the direction and 'opt' for a direct frontal hit so that the crumple zone and the airbags come into the picture?

I do understand that 'instinct' plays a huge role in such scenarios and the natural instinct is to steer away from the obstacle and keep on doing it hoping till the last moment that you might just clear it. What I am asking is - can one train himself to control the instinct and take a conscious decision to get into a hit in a more controlled fashion (which is favourable to the occupant's safety)? Is that possible at all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FORTified (Post 4081927)

Something didn't add up for me here. You said you were at 80KMPH, then applied brakes and then slammed them. Lets says you cam down to 60 [in fact, with tyres screeching etc., it should be a lot less] and the truck crawling at 20.
So, your relative speed should be around 40. Looks like there are no under run bars for the truck and you hit it at wherever you can contact.
But, the damage to the bonnet, engine, cabin and pillars doesn't look like a 40KMPH hit. The entire dash board is sitting in the passenger seat.
For that to happen at 40KM, the car should be made of cardboard. And XUV is a strong and heavy vehicle. Isn't it?

From my own accident experience, I believe 40KMPH or 80KMPH is not the only factor that determines the damage. The heaviness of the lorry (overloaded), and when XUV hit the lorry, it's engine was still running pushing the vehicle forward a bit more, or the torque have pushed forward for half second or one second (until the electricals break up) which could have caused some serious damage. XUV is fairly heavy too, combined with mHawk's 330nm of torque @ 2000-2200 rpm at 80KMPH equates to a possibility of such damage. I may be wrong here though.

The other issue I noted is - switching off the head lamps. Had the lamps were ON, the chances of noticing the lorry would have been a bit high.

Good thing is - the occupants are alive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDP (Post 4082090)

You are standing on your brakes and trying to steer away from the truck ahead. At one point of time, you realize that the hit is inevitable. At this point, should one correct the direction and 'opt' for a direct frontal hit so that the crumple zone and the airbags come into the picture?

Typical backside of a smoky Indian truck.

Accidents in India | Pics & Videos-0836_v_truck_backside.jpg

Not sure if aiming for "keep distance" board (at the centre) on the truck would have helped. Without an under-run bar, it would have still bypassed the crumple zone of any car/SUV. SUVs are high-riding but only relative to a car, not to a truck.

But yeah, perhaps the impact energy would have been better distributed across the bonnet if you don't swerve. In this particular case, the XUV500 is a write-off because the road divider broke the axles too. That would not have happened if the impact was only with the truck.

Quote:

I do understand that 'instinct' plays a huge role in such scenarios and the natural instinct is to steer away from the obstacle and keep on doing it hoping till the last moment that you might just clear it. What I am asking is - can one train himself to control the instinct and take a conscious decision to get into a hit in a more controlled fashion (which is favourable to the occupant's safety)? Is that possible at all?

This is exactly the problem that Tesla is trying to solve with their autonomous cars. When given multiple options, which is the least deadly option to choose if an accident is inevitable. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterjim13 (Post 4082109)

Airbags ?? Anyone ?
I cant see them inflated. Looks like yours is a W8. With hell loads of Air Bags.
Very unfortunate though !

The airbag sensors are behind the front bumper and they are not disturbed at all. The XUV took the hit at the top end of the hood and in this accident, there is no chance of an airbag deployment (Remember the famous Merc S-class accident or even the Liva in Kerala which was hit right in the middle of the bumper, in between the sensors)
As smartcat mentioned, I think there might have been more chance if the XUV hit the truck in the middle (directly on the chassis long members of the truck).

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDP (Post 4082090)

With all this analysis around manipal's accident pics, even at the risk of being a bit off-topic, I would like to ask a question:

I do understand that 'instinct' plays a huge role in such scenarios and the natural instinct is to steer away from the obstacle and keep on doing it hoping till the last moment that you might just clear it. What I am asking is - can one train himself to control the instinct and take a conscious decision to get into a hit in a more controlled fashion (which is favourable to the occupant's safety)? Is that possible at all?

I also had an accident, that day I didn't steer fast enough. Had I moved by a feet towards the left that day, I would have missed it.

Coming back to your question, ' can one train himself to control the instinct and take a conscious decision to get into a hit in a more controlled fashion (which is favourable to the occupant's safety)? Is that possible at all?'

Of course we can train the drivers, but it won't guarantee that the driver will make the correct choice every time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecenandu (Post 4080673)

Some real life situations, and the way humans react to them instantly, may seem to be knee-jerk, but probably are well calculated in our sub-conscious mind.

The biggest advantage I can see with autonomous driving is that these systems won't text, sleep or be intoxicated while driving. And in those real life situations, where a human has a split second to decide, the system will have far more data, like 360 degree view of its surroundings, radar data etc to make a well calculated decision than a human.

Incase the system make an irrational choice in certain situations we can improve the software, right.