[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

It is a pity you base your argument on an irrelevant basis.

But you cannot, or at least it is not reasonable, take the results of an accident of which you do not even know the full details, and say that the car is not safe. It may very well be that, in that accident, no car would have been "safe."

It would certainly be irrelevant to base my "belief" on the pictures of this one Baleno accident. But, when multiple pictures in this thread spread over many years seem to point to the same general direction, I don't see any reason to change it (maybe it's just confirmation bias).

I will definitely agree that there is no scientific basis for my "belief". When it comes to any accident, unless you crash another car in the exact same conditions, you can always use the argument that "maybe in that accident no car would've been safe". Then again, maybe some would have - we don't know that either.

As you have yourself suggested, there is evidence to suggest that Maruti cars made in India are not as safe (structurally) as the Suzuki cars made in Europe - whereas there is evidence to suggest that atleast Polo and Figo made in India have similar structural integrity as their European counterparts (based on the tests broadcast on NDTV last year). So I think it is not such a big leap of faith to consider Euro competition better than Maruti cars in India in this aspect. Whether that is enough to change the fate of the occupants in the Baleno accident is a totally different question (maybe not).

[Thad E Ginathom]

Again, your conclusions may be correct, but your argument doesn't hold any water at all. I think we've done this one to death, if you'll forgive the unfortunate choice of word.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by saket77

Even when the cars are crash tested, the methodology involves crashing it against an identical weight block with a 60-40 offset

Yes you're correct there, as far as Euro-NCAP & most other NCAP's go. However there is one more stringent form of safety testing conducted by American IIHS-HLDI which has cars offset at 40:60 or from what I can see, 30:70 towards a solid, immovable concrete wall. By doing this they measure how a vehicle will hold up when inevitably heading towards an immovable object.

By the weight against weight logic, this has to possibly be the worst that can happen since the point of impact has full-resistance and limitless weight. Most of the vehicles are crash tested in this overlap method to find out what would happen should the worst happen. Let me give examples with visual aids to elaborate on what I understood.

1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Df9HsixvBs

This is the Fiat 500, a good example due to its particularly small size. As one can see the body itself held on great against such impact, the wheel also does not slice into the compartment and crumbles before such an incident happens which is the best thing one can ask for. However the dashboard intrusion is a bit severe as the steering column itself bends rightwards taking the airbags away from the driver. Official result : Poor. Personal opinion : for its bonnet size it did just fine.


2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAPzkM3NR9E

The Chevy Beat did a good job, wheels didn't shear into the cabin, airbags deployed as planned & while there was a fair movement of the steering column, it held on the best way it could. Official result : Acceptable. Personal opinion : the body frame crumpled compared to the Fiat 500, I don't see how it got a better score. Fiat surely held on far better.

3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGFX1d8dj-U

The Hyundai Genesis did a great job, as one can see the passenger frame is undisturbed, the wheels didn't shear into the cabin & the steering column remained 90 deg straight for the airbag to cushion the driver dead centre. The Hyundai Accent/Verna & Kia Soul though failed the test miserably (2013 models) due to frame/dashboard instability. Rest of Kia models did well and in most cases better than Hyundai.

4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agCCJQIPLD0

This is everything that can & will go wrong if the structure isn't stable.. the frame is disturbed, the rims shear into the cabin, the door is smashed open & the steering column SRS completely misses the driver leading to heavy whiplash.

5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqIdsH_ebAQ

The Jetta also did a great job in terms of keeping itself stable from the crash, however even though they gave it a "Good" rating it was pointed out later that the rims shearing into the door panel is not a good thing & can cause heavy leg injuries if the design isn't altered. Great safe car nonetheless. From what I can see the dashboard also didn't keep itself stable as the airbag misses the driver almost entirely.

I can post many more videos, but I hope all of you can get what the main point is, there are models across every manufacturer that got poor ratings and then those that got good ratings. From what I can see BMW leads the pack in overall safety of all models followed by Mercedes. Audi had one failure in the A4 (2013 model) where the front door flew open and the rims cut into the cabin, rest managed 'Good' rating. Mercedes too had a failure in the 2013 C Class where the front more or less folded like a deck of cards and the driver (dummy) head almost hit the A pillar. Even Ford's luxury brand Lincoln did very poorly w.r.t certain models between 13/14. Toyota's bigger SUV's did well but its smaller Yaris possibly had the worst performance with the dummy almost flying out of the door.

As I've said before, defending brands maybe natural for people here but its also essential to look at a manufacturer for what they are and make them change. Let's also stop the "ALL of models of brand X are safe while ALL the models of brand Y are unsafe". If anyone simply views a few videos of NCAP or IIHS tests they will know for sure that each brand has their safely-built models which pass all tests with flying colours, while some brands known for safety have very unsafe vehicles as well in the mix.

Lets not take things personally when safety of a model is in doubt, lets instead look at it objectively from the model point of view rather than tarnish/praise the brand that built it. As far as India goes there is no saying how much a manufacturer will tweak/edit/subtract from the locally sold vehicle even if they are manufacturing for the global market. Since Fiat has only 2 models in India, i.e the Punto & Linea I'd give them the honours of making 100% structurally 'sound' models for India.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

This is the Fiat 500, a good example due to its particularly small size. As one can see the body itself held on great against such impact, the wheel also does not slice into the compartment and crumbles before such an incident happens which is the best thing one can ask for. However the dashboard intrusion is a bit severe as the steering column itself bends rightwards taking the airbags away from the driver. Official result : Poor. Personal opinion : for its bonnet size it did just fine.

The Chevy Beat did a good job, wheels didn't shear into the cabin, airbags deployed as planned & while there was a fair movement of the steering column, it held on the best way it could. Official result : Acceptable. Personal opinion : the body frame crumpled compared to the Fiat 500, I don't see how it got a better score. Fiat surely held on far better.

Appreciate the post however "for its bonnet size it did just fine" has got to be one of the more ridiculous arguments I have seen here remember that the Renault Scenic and Espace had got 5 star ENCAP ratings back in 2003 and they were both mini MPVs (similar vintage Volkswagen Passat achieved 4 stars) so there is clearly more to crash safety than bonnet size.

I cannot see why you think the Fiat held on far better. IIHS's small frontal overlap crash test is one of the most stringent ones out there and cars are scored good, acceptable, marginal and poor. The Chevrolet Beat scored better since its door did not rip off at the hinge unlike the Fiat and the level of interior intrusion was much less thus decreasing the risk of driver injury. These details are provided on the website and it is better to go through them when they are available instead of trying to be the expert yourself.

[for_cars1]

Originally Posted by blackwasp

.... Even simple things like stopping for a red light can prevent collisions.

The key thing to practise while on the road is Defensive Driving ie., be sure to follow all the traffic rules but also watch out for other's mistakes as much as possible and allow sufficient room as best as you can to accomodate other's error and mitigate incidents.

In the above quoted example: Its absolutely a must to stop at a red light, no question about that, but one has to be aware that in the early mornings and late nights, there are many drivers who disregard the red light totally, stopping at a red signal has an increased likelihood of getting hit at the rear. The safer thing to do is to stop nearer to the side of the road (allowing room for left passing vehicles wherever required and without blocking the others jumping the signal), to stop gradually and not abruptly at a signal (make your intention to stop well known), put hazard lights while you are stopped if you see others disregard the signal and zooming past you, just to make the other driver aware of your vehicle. These precautions are not required during the day when most motorists follow the traffic.

The key thing is to use your judgement and presence of mind and follow defensive driving.

The other dangerous driving commonly observed on our 4/6 laned highways is cars driving continuously over long stretches at top speed at the right most lane just a couple of feet away from the divider. All it takes is a slight movement of the car to the right to hit the divider, it can happen in an instant at the slightest nudge of the steering wheel at high speeds and cause a rollover and send the vehicle flying to the other side.
The right lane should be used only for overtaking, cruising should always be done at the left lane away from the divider.

[WRXXX]

Slightly off post to the current topic. While the NCAP crash tests feel like marketing numbers the below one feels like real world extreme scenario to tell you to drive safe, none of your safety arsenel is going to help you!

Also, there are many out there thinking that their cars are safe and venturing out in to the open with unsafe road behavior think again. While NCAP tests have one stationary object just add another moving object in the opposite direction with mightier weight you definitely have the situation detailed as below: Fellow bhpians, please drive safe.
All the below situation requires is two cars collide at 100kph head-on and say bye bye to this dear world and mostly in any car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7dG9UlzeFM

[FORTified]

There is an accident on outer ring road, near Rammurthy nagar under pass [actually, near the next under pass that comes after rammurthy nagar underpass, if you are going towards Hebbal] on the road coming towards Rammurthy nagar. A goods tempo turned turtle, leading to a massive pile up.

[ashwin.terminat]

Originally Posted by FORTified

There is an accident on outer ring road, near Rammurthy nagar under pass [actually, near the next under pass that comes after rammurthy nagar underpass, if you are going towards Hebbal] on the road coming towards Rammurthy nagar. A goods tempo turned turtle, leading to a massive pile up.

OT: Is this from today evening?

Like the rains and our roads jousting for who was causing more misery wasn't enough.

[FORTified]

Originally Posted by ashwin.terminat

OT: Is this from today evening?

I should have mentioned in my post. The pic is taken at 1600Hrs today.

[vinayrathore]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

OK, so what would a Mercedes look like if it had been through this particular accident?

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Strike out Ford, Tata and Audi from your list too....

Originally Posted by LordSharan

Disclaimer: I'm not a Maruti Fan boy.

To someone who wrote a post that Maruti is out of his list, here are few points:...

Originally Posted by saket77

Until we know the intensity and point of impact during the accident, we cannot judge how the car actually fared....

Originally Posted by Surya-TJet

A small perspective from my part:

Mass of Car = 1.5 Tons (Since it was packed with 6 passengers + luggage)
....

Seems a lot of water has flown under the bridge in last 2 days since I posted regarding the Baleno. There have been a lot of deliberations for and against the view I shared (including thorough mathematical analysis). The discussion cannot have a logical conclusion as far as the logic discussed here goes because no buyer goes to the showroom and expects absolute safety in each and every scenario. A layman (or someone a bit more informed than one) only goes by what he sees as examples and does not calculate weight/mass/speed etc.(no offence to the gentleman who did that, was an eye opener) before buying a car (atleast I never heard or saw anyone doing that). These examples can be from any source, a friend/relative, a news, an advertisement if one believes in them, online like our forum etc. And these examples set in over a period of time.

I for one even if I go out to buy say a shoe polish would look for a manufacturer regarding whom people have only good things to say. I would chuck out from my list any one against whom I see a lot of bad examples. Buying a car is a lot lot bigger decision as my family's absolute safety is involved here.

Its 2015 and we have lots of options in the market. I did not see any such thread regarding any other manufacturer except Maruti. So when a manufacturer themselves say safety is not their priority, I would not dare go near them. What Mr. Bhargava says reflects in their products and I have seen a lot of examples, driven their cars.

A Manufacturer's attitude matters alot as its directly proportional to the quality of their products. Period.

[samaspire]

Originally Posted by WRXXX

Slightly off post to the current topic. While the NCAP crash tests feel like marketing numbers the below one feels like real world extreme scenario to tell you to drive safe, none of your safety arsenel is going to help you!

Also, there are many out there thinking that their cars are safe and venturing out in to the open with unsafe road behavior think again. While NCAP tests have one stationary object just add another moving object in the opposite direction with mightier weight you definitely have the situation detailed as below: Fellow bhpians, please drive safe.
All the below situation requires is two cars collide at 100kph head-on and say bye bye to this dear world and mostly in any car.

That was scary. And the final result looks some what like that maruti.

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by samaspire

That was scary. And the final result looks some what like that maruti.

Cross posting from Baleno thread and some new data here:
Not sure how true this is and the source is here:
After this kind of Drama, people can give a break to their speculations and also give some time to watch the video and see that it can literally be any car that turns into rumble.

The accident took place at 2.30 am when Sanjay was overtaking a truck and couldn’t control the speeding car. After Sanjay overtook the truck, he lost control over the car and was hit by the same truck from behind. Following the hit, the car overturned and after it crossed over the divider, it was again hit by another speeding truck, Sehgal added.

[itinerant]

This accident took place on 21st November between Kushi Nagar and Gorakhpur on NH 28. It was early morning and presumably pretty foggy with low visibility. This pick up truck smashed into a stationary truck parked on the left side. I did not witness the accident but talked to a dhaba owner who witnessed it.

[COOLAMOL]

Surprising ,seen a lot of Verna accidents and wherever i stopped people say driver lost control .I think the front set up is too soft for the speed it can do especially at high speeds and bends

[ambivalent_98]

This is an accident perhaps documented earlier (I am not sure) but it involves a brand new Baleno. It might be off-topic but since we are discussing crash tests , I wonder if this should raise a few eyebrows.

http://www.motoroids.com/news/maruti...ome-questions/