Team-BHP - Accidents in India

Quote:

Originally Posted by vnidta (Post 3848603)

The incident looks extremely scary with the first set of pictures. But the picture you have taken is scaring me more. I'm not able to make out the picture completely, but is that someone looking inside through the driver-side door or is it the driver himself still on the seat when you took this picture?

Thats a person trying to figure out whether any person/kid is trapped inside. You are right, the incident was really scary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by motomaverick (Post 3848638)

That Verna is certainly totaled. That curve isnt very bad but if someone does not know the limits of his/her driving and pushes through such sweeping curves these things bound to happen. The ABS would have kicked in but then the braking was panic and on a curve plus at more than 100kph the reaction time is few milli seconds.

But whats surprising me is how the driver died, that side does not look very bad, I guess no seat belts plus late night drive after few swigs maybe.

The curve is not sharp; but its pitch dark at night & there is no streetlight on that stretch. So if a driver is not attentive, he/she might miss the curve altogether and crash on median.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endofdayz (Post 3848657)

Mine is top end verna 2014 Model. Now this argument is putting some thoughts or doubts in my mind when a small incident happened to me 20 days back. I was cruising in at 40 to 50 kms/Hr, and car in front of me had to jam the brakes due to small kids crossing the road out of nowhere. Looking at this I also jammed my brakes. I thought ABS would kick in but I have no clue whether that happened. Car's wheel got locked and it slided and hit the wagon R in my front. All this while I was thinking whether wheels got locked or not.

Is there a way to check whether ABS is really working ?

I can vouch that in this case, the wheels got locked. ABS might not have kicked or may have malfunctioned.
You can test this on your car in a deserted land/road (Never if there are others present on the road). You can accelerate to 50 and brake. You can fell throbbing of ABS on the brake paddle. Discretion advised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjun Reddy (Post 3848659)

The Verna is totalled. There has been a lot of talk about the ABS etc.. I have a feeling that the driver could have actually dozed off. He probably realised late, jammed his brakes and steered into the divider. Not wearing seat belts could have led to the fatality. Just a thought as it happened at 1:30 am.

Yes the driver realized it very late. But the question remains, why the tires were locked. With ABS, the effect of the crash could be minimized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by motomaverick (Post 3848672)

I think the ABS light glows in the dashboard, not sure maybe other folks with ABS can comment on the same.

ABS light glows only if there is any malfunction in ABS, this is what FORD manual states! If ABS is fitted in car, you slam your brakes and try to steer out of obstacle! You get a pulse in your break peddle (some thing similar to going over undiluted road). Key thing is you can steer-out even when you jam your brakes. Non-ABS Cars you can't steer unless you remove your leg from brakes (i.e. manually simulate ABS).

If ABS fails (while break peddle jammed) to work, ABS light will switch on in dashboard! Once ABS light (i.e. failure) comes-up it won't usually go off.

Mods: Shift these discussion to ABS thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ankan.m.blr (Post 3848680)

........ You can test this on your car in a deserted land/road (Never if there are others present on the road). You can accelerate to 50 and brake. You can fell throbbing of ABS on the brake paddle. Discretion advised.

Yes the driver realized it very late. But the question remains, why the tires were locked. With ABS, the effect of the crash could be minimized.

What happens if the speed is high and if the suspension is not able to keep the car pinned down completely to the road?

I am not sure if ABS can be effective at very high speeds. It might also depend on the car and its suspension. If you jam the brakes even with ABS working and wheels not locking up, wouldn't the momentum of the car still cause problems?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ankan.m.blr (Post 3848680)

The curve is not sharp; but its pitch dark at night & there is no streetlight on that stretch. So if a driver is not attentive, he/she might miss the curve altogether and crash on median.

This section has been an accident spot even before Bangalore - Mysore road was 4 laned. For those driving from Mandya / Mysore side Ramanagaram traffic starts from around Kamat Lokaruchi which is couple of KM's before Ramanagaram town.

Even after crossing the town, it is after couple of KM's around the Hyundai showroom when you are able to gain speed thanks to couple of speed breakers and turns in the road. Soon after this, around the HP bunk you get comparatively straight stretch of road where everyone floors pedal. And then suddenly you reach the turn before Rasta cafe followed by a slight elevation in the road after CCD.

During 2 lane road days, vehicles used to try overtaking each other in this stretch and cause accidents.

Now, we don't know the reason for this particular Verna accident. However, in general it is very dangerous to drive in triple digit speeds on Bangalore - Mysore road due to the numerous villages the road passes through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endofdayz (Post 3848657)

Mine is top end verna 2014 Model. Now this argument is putting some thoughts or doubts in my mind when a small incident happened to me 20 days back. I was cruising in at 40 to 50 kms/Hr, and car in front of me had to jam the brak.... I thought ABS would kick in but I have no clue whether that happened. Car's wheel got locked and it slided and hit the wagon R in my front. All this while I was thinking whether wheels got locked or not.

Is there a way to check whether ABS is really working ?

I once owned a Daewoo Espero way back in 1995 in the Middle East and it had ABS (my first experience with ABS) which was also a Korean company like Hyundai. I used to be worried about the breaking as most of the time i could feel the pedal floored and the vehicle still moving. Thank God that I never met with any accident in that vehicle (probably i was extra cautious about the breaking) I did talk to the service personnel about it and they said it works but i was not very confident. I also had the experience of similar (flooring of the break pedal) with my friends brand new Ford Endeavour (which was intermittent) here in India and reported the same to Ford who kept assuring that it is fine but we kept insisting on getting it changed and finally got the ABS replaced and the problem was solved.

A few things I could understand from other automobile enthusiasts was when we stamp on the breaks (with ABS), we should continue pressing on the breaks unlike vehicles (without ABS) where its better to release and keep pressing multiple times (like what the old drivers call it "pumping" on the breaks) and hold the steering wheels straight (unless you have the ESP or electronic stability control). Most vehicles that has ABS would get the shuddering effect when we press the breaks and you can feel it on the steering and break pedals when the ABS is at work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo-G (Post 3848819)

A few things I could understand from other automobile enthusiasts was when we stamp on the breaks (with ABS), we should continue pressing on the breaks unlike vehicles (without ABS) where its better to release and keep pressing multiple times (like what the old drivers call it "pumping" on the breaks) and hold the steering wheels straight (unless you have the ESP or electronic stability control). Most vehicles that has ABS would get the shuddering effect when we press the breaks and you can feel it on the steering and break pedals when the ABS is at work.

2 points.
No matter how sonic-the-hedgehog one may be, "pumping" the brakes to emulate ABS cannot be accomplished. You'd hardly be able to get 2-3 pumps in before inevitability occurs.
Two, holding the steering straight implies you'll continue holding the line? Then why pump? Keep the pedal pushed to the floor. A skidding wheel will provide the maximum friction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by batman (Post 3848688)

Please look at the top left corner of the photo provided in the first link; You are talking about the other vehicle involved in the accident.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/stat...cle3125775.ece

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_naik (Post 3848845)

I have tried to put both of them together. They are the same vehicle , no doubt.
Attachment 1440228

I am curious to know how did you find out this while the newspaper pic doesnt even show the driver's side.

Guys, I concede that this maybe the same car. I was looking at the car in the middle of the picture (the second car involved in the accident) in the article and not the edge where a XUV is visible

Naik, my comments are from the pictures I have attached where the driver side is intact. Agreed that in the news article only a part of the passenger side is visible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo-G (Post 3848819)

In ABS equipped vehicles, no matter how much ever you keep the pedal pressed, the kick back from ABS on the pedal is bit too harsh combined with the metallic clank you hear as if the pedal has gotten loose (1st time users will be taken for surprise for some mechanical problem - happened with me the 1st time I experienced) and forces you to let go loose for a second or so

On this whole ABS topic - were there any skid marks?

Screeching sounds alone are not conclusive evidence of locked tyres - tires can screech/chirp when stressed, or it could have been the body scraping the median, etc.

If there were no skid marks, then its safe to presume that ABS worked as intended, but the driver didn't/couldn't steer out of safety.

Drivers often forget that ABS is not a magical TLA that will swoop in and save them. It is a specific technology that - within limits - tries to give some control back to the driver, and expects them to try and get to safety.

Three things need to work together for ABS to be beneficial:

ABS should be activated - i.e. speed of the 4 wheels should differ, this is the precursor to a wheel locking up (e.g. a classic case when ABS will not activate is when all 4 wheels aquaplane - even light braking will lock all 4 wheels, and the ABS system has no reference to detect this)
The driver must take advantage of ABS activation - i.e. he or she needs to use the ability to steer and control the car to actually bring it under control, or drive to safety
A safe exit option must be available - i.e. even if a driver is able to benefit from ABS, there must be somewhere safe for him/her to take the car to. Its of no use having control if your car is pointing towards the median with less than a millisecond to steer away from danger.

Sadly, in the absence of such knowledge, ABS just results in risk compensation - driving in a riskier manner on the incorrect assumption that various safety aids make one safer. Quoting from the linked article:

Quote:

A number of studies show that drivers of vehicles with ABS tend to drive faster, follow closer and brake later, accounting for the failure of ABS to result in any measurable improvement in road safety.
A study of crashes involving taxicabs in Munich of which half had been equipped with anti-lock brakes noted that crash rate was substantially the same for both types of cab, and concluded this was due to drivers of ABS-equipped cabs taking more risks.
A 2004 study found that ABS reduced the risk of multiple vehicle crashes by 18 percent, but had increased the risk of run-off-road crashes by 35 percent.

A clear beneficiary seems to be two-wheelers, which is understandable given the proclivity of two-wheelers to lock their brakes at the drop of a hat:

Quote:

However, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety released a study in 2010 that found motorcycles with ABS 37% less likely to be involved in a fatal crash than models without ABS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vnidta (Post 3848603)

Let me tell you something that I know about this particular point. I carpool to office and my colleague-cum-friend who travels along with me has got himself the Elite i20. I observed him sticking to just the brakes in order to slow down and he never ever uses the engine braking. I asked him for the reason and seems as though the ASS Engineers at Adwaith Hyundai have advised him never to use engine-braking as it destroys the engine.., and may void warranty. I'm just flabbergasted to hear this... (I request experts to enlighten me on this since I found nothing related to engine destruction on the internet please:) On the other hand though, I'm used to engine braking and always stick to it. I've found that to be the best way to get the car under control on all my highway drives till date :)

And I shed a tear for everyone who gets fooled by such nonsense. Engine braking would only be harmful if you drop too many gears down and cause the rpm needle to raise above the red-line (several modern cars already have a electronic rpm limiter). The only possible harm could be to the synchros (rev-matching takes care of that). Engine braking prevents excessive clutch wear and excessive brake-pad wear (perhaps the ASS wants people to have to replace these parts more often). Ergo, from a maintenance perspective, to primary safety perspective; in that one is more in control of the car using engine braking, this technique is the best.