[ebonho]

In this video, Ryan of Fortnine says motorcycle riding gear CE1 and CE2 level protectors are useless, because the allowable limits for these standards are way above what the human bones can withstand. And hence there is no use in wearing them and he personally has removed from his own gear.

https://youtu.be/nINIJ1cAbYM?si=N-jJQRAt6NkRliVT

What is this guy saying? Is he serious?

Cheers, Doc

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by ebonho

https://Youtu.be/nINIJ1cAbYM?si=N-jJQRAt6NkRliVT

What is this guy saying? Is he serious?

Cheers, Doc

Partly...
Protectors not sufficient - TRUE
Protectors meet minimum requirements - TRUE
Regulatory Capture - Probably TRUE
Fracture Prevention - Probably TRUE

Abrasion Prevention - Understated
Force Dissipation - Understated
Soft Tissue Injury - Understated
Role in overall Safety - Understated

Ditching the protectors - Misleading!

For Additional context

THIS

After all they are all Influencers...

[sukiwa]

Originally Posted by ebonho

What is this guy saying? Is he serious?

Don't forget video got posted on April 1st.

I am not going to remove protective armor and will continue to wear it even on office commute.

Only takeaway from video for me is armor standards have to progress, same thing emphasized in video shared by 'roy_libran'. Elbow and Shoulder protector standard is still from 2012, back protector from 2014 whereas garment standard got updated in 2020.

Fortnine video posted on April 1, 2023, just for fun and sake of date context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1T7NzCtWHo

Originally Posted by roy_libran

For Additional context

Thanks for sharing, I was about to post same. Researcher on other side of bike social is saying that protectors have got reduced in size(length, depth) for ease in usage.

After all they are all Influencers.

Agree wholeheartedly.

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by ebonho

https://Youtu.be/nINIJ1cAbYM?si=N-jJQRAt6NkRliVT

What is this guy saying? Is he serious?

Cheers, Doc

Ryan has been recently going down the hipster path his videos and content, trying to be more controversial and against conventional wisdom. The issue I had with him is the authoritative style of his videos with facts often presented as the final word. There were a couple of recent videos that came to my mind, the body positioning while riding and 270 degree crank vs 285 degree debate. He has a huge fan base which he built over the years and that makes it dangerous in my opinion. That said, he has a lot of very useful and well researched videos as well.

In the end, it is a Motorcycle gear store that is also a YT channel so take the videos with a pinch of salt. They need the views and it is a business.

[ebonho]

Yeah, he's one of the good (better) and entertaining channels. So I was wondering if we had got it right for most of the last 100 years of motorcycling, when a leather jacket and gloves with sturdy army mid top (6") boots was all that was needed to tour the world.

Cheers, Doc

[Axe77]

Re Ryan’s video, some good posts above already. I’d say anyone seeing that video please also scroll through the comments. There is some good exchange there both ways (some that stand out are from Bennetts Bike Social and Flying Magpie. I’m sure there are others too.)

My short takeaway although I’m keen to research more on this when I can:

- Should protector standards probably aim higher and be better: Yes.
- Will I be removing them from my jackets: No.
- At some point will I revisit what exactly is going to form my riding protection, specially while going on leisure rides of more than 50 kms out including multi day tours: Yes.

[Senotrius]

My opinion:

Go for certified protectors/riding gear that advertise 'above CE level 2' parameters. Usually they say exceeds CE test levels by 10,20,30% etc. Like Sastec which can be reused as well. But it's true, standards need to be revised. Like ECE 22.06 for helmets instead of 22.05. Also, for the same CE level certification, I think thicker is better than thinner ones despite claims by manufacturers.

Originally Posted by b16h22

Ryan has been recently going down the hipster path his videos and content, trying to be more controversial and against conventional wisdom.

In the end, it is a Motorcycle gear store that is also a YT channel so take the videos with a pinch of salt. They need the views and it is a business.

Yup. But he does atleast cite his sources towards the end of the video. I didn't verify them though. We need affordable airbag vest options here instead of the traditional jackets.

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[Cyborg]

Ryan’s video or not, I feel it’s simple really or common sense. Logic dictates wearing the best gear you can afford even when it’s hot out there because sweat is better than blood and full protection cannot be a bad thing. In this case there is no downside at all, why take a chance. There have been many, many cases of riders walking away from a crash due to proper motorcycling gear - this has to be non-negotiable.

The problem with Ryan’s video is due to his multitude of fans, hope they don’t take his advice to heart because otherwise there are going to be a lot more injuries and fatalities. It wouldn’t surprise me if in the near future someone sues Ryan in the USA (they are a litigious society) for his video which misguided him to throw away his gear armour

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Partly...
Protectors not sufficient - TRUE
Protectors meet minimum requirements - TRUE
Regulatory Capture - Probably TRUE
Fracture Prevention - Probably TRUE

Abrasion Prevention - Understated
Force Dissipation - Understated
Soft Tissue Injury - Understated
Role in overall Safety - Understated

Ditching the protectors - Misleading!

For Additional context
THIS

After all they are all Influencers...

The last sentence is particularly true. I am not sure if these influencers ever had a real life experience of being involved in a motorcycle accident while walking away unscathed from the fall. I do. Sharing my own experience here about a nasty accident I had way back in 2019 at Khopoli bypass just before entering Khandala. At a junction, a goods van came out of nowhere at high speed (60 KMPH) and hit my Thunderbird 500 on the right side. The impact was so severe that I got thrown about 10-15 feet in the air. Before being flung into the air I hit my head on the van's windshield due to sudden impact. While in the air my whole life from childhood to that moment flashed in my brain for those tense 2-3 seconds. I landed on my left shoulder and my head hit the tarmac with massive force. Next thing I know was watching the horizon go from left to right and from right to left. People gathered and were shocked to see me sitting at the edge of the road. They asked me if I wanted water but I refused and warned them not to remove my helmet.

After about 10 mins. I gained confidence and slowly stood up to assess the damage. The right side foot peg was completely sheared off as it took a direct hit. If the foot peg wouldn't have taken that hit them my right foot would've been crushed like sugarcane. The crash guard (Quality Chennai make) took the second impact and was bent, it did its job well. Handlebar was bent and the instrument cluster was also dislodged but didn't fall off. The rear wheel had a minor bent. The motorcycle went off as soon as it fell due to an inbuilt safety mechanism of shutting off the engine after a fall.

All this while people around me were aghast looking at me standing and assessing the motorcycle damage. I myself was surprised to find myself standing and walking around as if nothing much happened. Then I realised that it was the riding gears that protected me and helped me stand up and walk around. I was fully geared wearing a brand new LS2 FF386 Modular Helmet (4 Star SHARP Safety Rating), Cramster Eclipse Riding Jacket (CE L1 Armor on shoulders, elbows and back), DSG Nero riding pants with CE L1 Knee and hip protectors and Woodland Thick Leather Boots.

Given below is the impact on the riding gears:
1. Helmet: Abrasion on the temple area. The visor had a slight pop from the left side but didn't come off. Head was second to hit the tarmac
2. Riding Jacket: Slight Abrasion on the left shoulder and elbow area. It is important to mention here that Cramster Eclipse has thick leather running from the shoulder area all the way to the wrist area. Left shoulder was first to hit the tarmac.
3. Riding Pants: Abrasion on the left hip section, left knee area and right knee area. Right knee was third to hit the tarmac. Was wearing DSG Nero riding pants.
4. Gloves: Textile gloves which bore the brunt when both my hands hit the ground. Those were Scoyco MC10 make. I didn't slide so the gloves did their job. But I would advise wearing full gauntlet leather gloves.
5. Footwear: I wasn't wearing my riding boots but Woodland Boots with thick leather all around. These shoes took a lot of brunt during the accident where the right side sole from front to back came completely off and was hanging loose. After seeing my shoes the police havaldar standing there said, "Sir aapla boot ek number aahe. Zar he boot nasla asta tar tumcha paay asach ughadla asta." In English, "Sir your boots are top notch. Had you not wearing these boots, your foot would've been sliced/opened from bottom like the sole of these boots."

Impact on Body:
1. Head: Perfectly alright with no injuries whatsoever.
2. Upper Body: Slight sprain on my left and right shoulder but no injury. Was able to move arms up and down and side ways.
3. Lower Body: Slight sprain on left and right side of the hip.
4. Legs and feet: Slight swelling on the right knee and right foot.
5. Hands: All fingers and palm perfectly alright with minor pain on the left palm.

The above is from my own personal experience of a single accident in my life so far. I walked away from this accident thanks to my Riding Gears.

I upgraded all my riding gears post this accident. Viaterra Grid Gloves, LS2 FF386 helmet (I am very confident with this helmet), Cramster Eclipse Riding Jacket with all armours replaced with CE L2 protectors, DSG Nero Riding pants with CE L2 armours and RE ADV Riding Boots (CE certified).

Influencers or not, take your call. Afterall it's your life and not theirs.

P.S. The highway police handled the situation really well as they knew it wasn't my mistake but the van drivers mistake.

Ride Safe Ride ATGATT.

[SR1602]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

I am not sure if these influencers ever had a real life experience of being involved in a motorcycle accident while walking away unscathed from the fall.

+1. I was quite taken aback when he stated armour or no armour is the same level of protection from broken bones. I also went through a strikingly similar incident to you. During my squidding days of yore, I had a scary collision with a loaded quarry truck on Delhi's notorious GFR stretch. I was probably going about 100+ before colliding with the truck that was moving perpendicular to me at an intersection. Physics continued to screw me even after the 12th grade as the relative velocity made it seem like the truck was stationary on the other side before I could even realize it was too late and should consider slowing down.

As per my group, the right side of my face and my right shoulder torpedoed into the front grille and bumper section of the truck and I landed helmet first on the road after about 10-20 metres of airtime. I think the damage to the bike gives a better estimate of how bad the crash was.



I had a concussion for 12 or so hours and I am missing 5 minutes of pre-accident memory because my helmet was half-size loose and couldn't do its duty properly. I got 7 stitches on my lip too but apart from that, ZERO damage (*touchwood*). The jacket I was wearing was a first-generation Spartan Helios that only had Level 1 Knox armour. Luck definitely had a role to play here (as I was only in jeans and sneakers apart from the jacket, helmet, gloves and knee guards that I was wearing) but I don't think my shoulder would have taken that impact with not even a swelling if it wasn't for the armour.

So thanks for the effort Ryan, but I'll let them stay right where they are.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

The usefulness of CE L1 and L2 protectors in motorcycle riding gear posts moved to a new thread.

Personal take - April 1st or not, Ryan has laid out his points well about how the legislation allows for way too less protection than required - definitely something that needs to be improved if so.

But I'm keeping mine - whatever incremental protection we can have should certainly help in the odd scenarios.

[kozhissery]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Ditching the protectors - Misleading!

I thought he mentioned that the CE1/CE2 saves you from aberrations/tear etc but not from breaking bones. He ditched the CE1/CE2 because he is using Airbags.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Influencers or not, take your call. Afterall it's your life and not theirs.

Yes, it does save you. I too had a nasty incident (banged from behind by my friend while I was waiting for the animals to cross) about a decade ago and the kit did save me.

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by kozhissery

I thought he mentioned that the CE1/CE2 saves you from aberrations/tear etc but not from breaking bones. He ditched the CE1/CE2 because he is using Airbags.


Yes, it does save you. I too had a nasty incident (banged from behind by my friend while I was waiting for the animals to cross) about a decade ago and the kit did save me.

Airbags alone can't save your limbs and skin from road rash and other injuries so that's not a solution to the problem. Can airbags save your knees if you go down without armour? it's the most common injury in crashes. Trust me, I've had falls with and without armour and the difference was big enough to keep using armour. I understand that it's his choice but his arguments are not 100% correct. If that was the case, the GP riders wouldn't wear Armour in their leather suits and would just trust the airbags to save their body. They walked away fine from many a highsides before the introduction of airbags. What airbags did was reduce shoulder bone injuries and back injuries.

The armour standards may not be the best that can be achieved with modern science but it does help very well many normal accidents. Especially if you consider India, the road speeds are lower so the effectiveness of body armour is higher. It may not help you if you go under a truck at 100 but it'll help you if you have an off at say 40-50. The point of the armour is to reduce the damage and not stop it completely.

In the studies he quote, only the ones resulted in broken bones were considered and not ones in which the rider walked away. Many have pointed out the issues with the data provided in the comment section. The intentions are good but the conclusion is similar to what helmet naysayers do, people still die with a helmet on so I'm not wearing one.

[Indraneel Bhat]

As a survivor of 2 crashes (1 in which my bike got totaled and the 2nd one almost totaled my friend's bike), I can firmly tell you that my gear (DSG Gauntlets, AlpineStar Riding jacket and Cramster knee guards) was the fine line between soreness and full fledged injuries.
So I don't care if Rossi himself asks me to remove the armor from my jacket, it's not happening.

[shabih]

IMHO the video is more for shock value to wake up manufacturers to make necessary improvements to gears. Or perhaps the intent is to deem traditional armor irrelevant in favor of airbag-enabled protective gear. The researcher who was later interviewed by bikesocial also mentions that he uses airbag-enabled gears.

Certainly, any amount of gear or technological improvements in the bike itself is no guarantee that it will protect serious damage but it being there brings peace of mind so I don't think any rider in their right mind should ditch armor. Shumi also once said he doesn't like to protect bike protection because insurance takes care of the damage.

Personally, I am against both of these arguments.