[veesixteen]

To my knowledge, only THREE 1930-31 Cadillac V-16 models were acquired by pre-independence Indian potentates. One was the so-called "tiger-hunt" car with custom coachwork by "Pinin," the youngest of the Farina brothers (NOT the company "Pininfarina"); it was acquired by the Maharajah of Orccha in Bhopal; the second was bought by the Maharajah of Tikari; the third had custom coachwork designed by Belgian carrossier, Van den Plas and was possibly built by Lancefield of London. About that last car, I got a telephone call in June, 2004, from the grandson of this car's first owner, a wealthy Pakistani gentleman; the car survives in Pakistan and I am dying to hear more about it. Lancefield built a similar car on the V12 chassis; in the advertising brochure the text for the V12 version reads as follows: "This body is fitted with de Ville extension [removable curtain over the driving area] but it is otherwise designed as a Town Cabriolet with Fixed Head. (...) No running boards are fitted, steps being made to open with the doors. A distinguishing feature is the special type of wings fitted [cycle fenders]. The back seat is designed for two but can accommodate a third and two occasional seats are fitted, facing forward. The driving seat is very roomy and is designed specially for the comfort of the owner-driver. Colour scheme optional, and a choice of the very finest cloths and soft leathers. As supplied to Captain F.W. Hartman [CEO of Lendrum & Hartman, GM's British outlet in England] and Major E. Howard". Among the classifieds in England's "Motor" magazine for March 24, 1931, is an ad for that particular V-12; it was described as a sports saloon, painted French grey and fitted with a sunshine roof. The advertised cost at the time was £2350.

Originally Posted by deutscheafrikar

Thanks for all the info Awini... I look forward to getting some new info. So this Bhawalpur (pakistan punjab???) V16 who was the owner... and any idea what type or who manufactured the body?

[wasif]

Hi Veesixteen.

You are correct about the two V16 Caddies that were with the Royal Families of Orccha and Tikari. Pictures of these are available on this thread

With regards to the car from Pakistan it is definitely the one that belonged to the Nawab of Bhawalpur. in fact it is said that he had two of them along with a Marmon V16 and many other interesting cars. Most were auctioned a while back but there still a few which were not sold due to pending litigations.

Pictures of one of the Caddies is to be found on the Pak Wheels website. It was a enclosed sedan / limousine ? but in a very sorry condition due to poor storage.

This would bring the figure of V16 caddies imported to India to al least four. There is also mention of a firth such car still surviving in India.

Wll try to find pics of the Bhawalpur cars.

[DKG]

I've heard of the possibility of a V12 in India too. I wonder how many V12's came in

[issigonis]

Originally Posted by wasif

Hi Veesixteen.

You are correct about the two V16 Caddies that were with the Royal Families of Orccha and Tikari. Pictures of these are available on this thread

With regards to the car from Pakistan it is definitely the one that belonged to the Nawab of Bhawalpur. in fact it is said that he had two of them along with a Marmon V16 and many other interesting cars. Most were auctioned a while back but there still a few which were not sold due to pending litigations.

Pictures of one of the Caddies is to be found on the Pak Wheels website. It was a enclosed sedan / limousine ? but in a very sorry condition due to poor storage.

This would bring the figure of V16 caddies imported to India to al least four. There is also mention of a firth such car still surviving in India.

Wll try to find pics of the Bhawalpur cars.

Wasif,

A Marmon 16 here?
Absolutely amazing. I am waiting for info. and pics

Another request - the Nawab of Bahawalpur's collection possibly deserves a separate thread.

Regards
Regards

[wasif]

Originally Posted by issigonis

Wasif,

A Marmon 16 here?
Absolutely amazing. I am waiting for info. and pics

Another request - the Nawab of Bahawalpur's collection possibly deserves a separate thread.

Regards
Regards

Hi.

It would definitely be interesting to start a thread on the Bhawalpur Cars but the thing is that Bhawalpur is now in Pakistan and I am not sure if anyone actually has pictures of the 24 cars auctioned a few years back.

Some of the cars are with members of VCCCP and can be found on their website and on the Pak Wheels Forum.

Here is a picture of the Nawab's Marmon V16 for your viewing pleasure.

[issigonis]

Wasif,

Thank you. This might well be the only Marmon in the subcontinent.
To me the marques which weren't too well known to our elites, are more interesting ( especially if these were as good or in some cases better than the Rolls Royces) :

Hispano Suiza (viz. H6B)
Pierce Arrow ( viz. the silver Arrow)
Marmon (viz.16)
Peerless
Lanchester
Isotta Fraschini
Duesenberg ( viz. the J & SJ)

Regards

[DKG]

Wasif I don't recall ever seeing a Marmon V16 with a grill like that. This is the Cadillac V16

The Nawab has had some kind of semi circular insignia band placed under the upper Cadillac crest. Also the V16 badge which normally came ahead of the grill on a arc resting on the headlamp sides got fixed onto the mesh, maybe they broke the rod and ended up fixing it directly to the mesh.

[karlosdeville]

I came across some real rarities (online), the Benaras cars on display.

Cadillac


1956/57 Plymouth Savoy


1936/37 Dodge (?)


1947/48 Buick Super 8


1947 (?) Ford, possibly a van/light bus.


The jewel in the crown, 1917 (as the plate says) Minerva


Varanasi - a set on Flickr

[issigonis]

Originally Posted by wasif

Hi.

It would definitely be interesting to start a thread on the Bhawalpur Cars but the thing is that Bhawalpur is now in Pakistan and I am not sure if anyone actually has pictures of the 24 cars auctioned a few years back.

Some of the cars are with members of VCCCP and can be found on their website and on the Pak Wheels Forum.

Here is a picture of the Nawab's Marmon V16 for your viewing pleasure.

Originally Posted by DKG

Wasif I don't recall ever seeing a Marmon V16 with a grill like that. This is the Cadillac V16

The Nawab has had some kind of semi circular insignia band placed under the upper Cadillac crest. Also the V16 badge which normally came ahead of the grill on a arc resting on the headlamp sides got fixed onto the mesh, maybe they broke the rod and ended up fixing it directly to the mesh.

I have pulled some jpegs from conceptcarz on the Marmon 16...see the pics

[wasif]

Oh Damn.

I mixed the pictures up. This is one of the two V16 Caddies from Bhawalpur. The other one is in a much worse state with the body almost collapsed.

I will look for the Marmon pictures and post them later.

BTW ther were and still are a few interesting Hispanos and Lanchesters in India.

The four Duesnebergs that came to India have since either been broken up or have left the country.

The Holkar SJ is in the US as is the Darrin Bodies J that was from Hyderabad. There is no trace of the other two so far or of a rumoured third car.

There were a few Isottas around to one of which was in the Imperial Palace Collection.

No Silver Arrows are on record to have reached our shores but ther are a few interesting Pierce Arrows still around. Three of them were on show art the Cartier Event recently.

No infor on whether there were / are any Peerless cars in India. Subject to correction on these facts

[harit]

Originally Posted by issigonis

Wasif,

Thank you. This might well be the only Marmon in the subcontinent.
To me the marques which weren't too well known to our elites, are more interesting ( especially if these were as good or in some cases better than the Rolls Royces) :

Hispano Suiza (viz. H6B)
Pierce Arrow ( viz. the silver Arrow)
Marmon (viz.16)
Peerless
Lanchester
Isotta Fraschini
Duesenberg ( viz. the J & SJ)

Regards

Hi Issigonis,
Sorry, but what did you mean by that highlighted part of that sentence? Actually the so called elites will know these marques, others may not. And by elites I would confine to Vintage car enthusiasts.
Well, there is a Marmon in Indore, but not a V16. That car came from Gujrat. I did trace a story of 2 marmons in Mumbai, one was a 7 seater Limo, the other a tourer. Perhaps this tourer is the one now in Indore.
There are still some Lanchesters around, Mallya, Doc, Alwar. There were even some 1947 or so Lanchesters, looked similar to rebadged Austins.
I am not aware of a Peerless ever having come to India, but a top of the line Franklin did. I have pictures.

The Orchha Caddy was in Mumbai for some time, I have a picture of it on Marine Drive. And a friends dad used to service it.

There is a small writeup on prewarcar.cpm about the RR EX 17. See Tell A Friend about: From Riches to Rags… and back from Rags to Riches (UPDATE about 10 EX) - PreWarCar.com

Maybe someone would like to contribute there?

Cheers harit

[911987]

@Harit, think what Issigonis meant was that in the old days the elite were not as familiar with the Marmon and some other exotic marques, as they were with the widely patronised Rolls Royce.
To draw a parallel , till a few years Rolex was the brand of choice in watches, for all but a few.
Do not think that it was directed at vintage car enthusiasts of today.
Peace.

[tonrag]

The Marmon that is mentioned by Harit, which is in Indore, probably is the one that belonged to the Gajjar collection, in Ahmedabad. I remember seeing it in the Statesman car rally in Delhi, in 1978. However, from what I remember, it wasn't a tourer. It was a black and rather upright saloon, with a vertical windscreen.

[harit]

Originally Posted by tonrag

The Marmon that is mentioned by Harit, which is in Indore, probably is the one that belonged to the Gajjar collection, in Ahmedabad. I remember seeing it in the Statesman car rally in Delhi, in 1978. However, from what I remember, it wasn't a tourer. It was a black and rather upright saloon, with a vertical windscreen.

Yes, that is the one. From what little history I could find, it was picked up from a village in Gujrat, and kept there by a Kutchi gentleman from Mumbai. Yes, it was not a tourer.

Cheers harit

[DKG]

I think its fair to say that just like our marketplace today in olden days you had people buying on account of social considerations and some who bought because they were enthusiasts.

There is a strong likelihood that Rolls Royces got sold in larger numbers because it was important for the Maharajahs to curry favour with the Brits by impressing them. At the same time there were many hardcore enthusiasts too amongst the Indian rulers who through their travels abroad became familiar with other brands. Further you had travelling salesmen who brought cars to the homes of nobility to sell explaining the many rare cars too in India