[karlosdeville]

I forgot to put this up earlier

I think one day I should become a member of BHP. But I travel a lot, now seeing posts after 12 days and contributing on the 190SL by speaking on the phone. After 2 weeks again I will be away, thereafter I may decide to join.
I saw Speedy's reply on the 190 thread.
First of all, there is no need to appologise. Just take a little care with info when posting. Why am I so particular is that there are many beginners here and they will refer to posts having errors. Errors do creep in and we make corrections as and when we come across. I also make errors, I mentioned Packard Mayflower, it should have been Mayfair. See what I mean?
About Mr. Jasdanwalla, why did he sell the red 190SL? I cannot say, someone should ask him. Maybe he had a big purchase in mind, perhaps he felt one 190SL was enough, perhaps there was too much work, we cannot ask him that. But that he was the previous owner was information volunteered by him.
I may have been following cars and their history longer than many, but I know for a fact that your brother has been very very active in following up cars and collections, he has been to more places than I have ever been, he has told me of some stuff followed by pictures I will not reveal because he shared those with me, and I would definitely be happy if he himself were to come out and contribute to the forum with his info. No one expects to give confidential or potentially profitable info, but past history is certainly welcome.
Cheers,
Harit

Now regarding the gullwing

Originally Posted by insideman

I was allowed to take only one picture, and so i took this one to show you that it was a 300sl gullwing, the number was - MHF-1_ _ but i was tod not to share it. He told me that there is one more 300sl(roadster) in delhi that is still there with a friend and that it is black , i will try and get more info on that.

Well, MHF is a commercial vehicle number so thats bogus. Can you get us a picture with the plate visible? You can blank out the numbers but keep MHF visible.

Originally Posted by speedy

Karl if you do have pictures of Hema bhais 300sl. could you post it so that insideman can confirm if it is the same car that he saw or another. thank you.

You beat me to it, I was thinking the same thing. The similarities are uncanny.



Sorry insideman, Im still not convinced. There have been too many hoaxes in the past. Prove me wrong, I will be the happiest person.

EDIT - Gotcha! Note the little lights/reflectors above the taillights - identical in both pictures, and not to be found on any other car with a little googling. Im not buying. Better luck next time.

[speedy]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Sorry insideman, Im still not convinced. There have been too many hoaxes in the past. Prove me wrong, I will be the happiest person.

EDIT - Gotcha! Note the little lights/reflectors above the taillights - identical in both pictures, and not to be found on any other car with a little googling. Im not buying. Better luck next time.

you bet i was going through gullwing and 300sl pictures to note differences. i think you just cracked the case. the 300sl roadster and not a gullwing.

[iraghava]

So yet another hoax attempt? Sorry Insideman, you better get us more conclusive pictures especially of the fender extensions & scoops mentioned before to convince us. A shot of the roof/door will serve the purpose well enough too.

And yes, like Karl, I'll be more than happy to see a genuine Gullwing in the country.

[karlosdeville]

Some comments from Harit.

Referring to the Gullwing thread, Balloney!!!!!!!!!!!. April Fool in August? As I told you last night when we spoke and before the sleuths of Team-BHP cracked the case, I was clear that there was no 300 Gullwing in Mumbai. I think I know who Insideman is, he has been educated abroad, has a European lineage in his blood and perhaps thinks that he is qualified to take all for a ride. What a waste of time.
If such a car were to exist in Mumbai, then it would not come on the road as it would have been spotted by someone. Such a car can only exist if it lies locked up at someplace. And today there are so many cellphones with camears (they need not be Porsche, He He) that the picture would have been available long back.
Next factual error all missed so far. Red coloured Lancia Flaminia? Who is he kidding. There was this Flaminia which was blue and belonged to Dubash. It rotted to the ground and I am not sure if it was saved by anybody.
Next, does the picture posted by Karlos on his behalf show a car likely to be not painted on one side and having a dent on the roof? Well the rear side is polished too well to be shabby elsewhere.
And then pictures were compared and the case was solved.
This guy Insideman earlier said that he has muscle cars. Does a Mustang 6 cylinder qualify as a muscle car? Or a chevy sedan 1955/56? And the Mustang which anyway has been taken out of the country! I am also not clear what he says about a Hemi Cuda. Perhaps he can clarify. Is that car in Pakistan and did he want to buy and import to India? That was anyway not possible. Did he find one in India and could not buy because of paperwork? I strongly believe but am subject to correction that the only similar car in India is in Mumbai, has been to Speedy's garage for work and is definitely not for sale. Speedy can check on this. So what is all this baloney for?
I know that he is desperately hunting for a muscle car and has been pestering a friend in Chennai. Maybe that time he cooked up the story and also put a Chennai connection to get some publicity. Incidently, he lives quite close to Speedy's place and there must be a special virus in the air that stimulates some guys creativity. Speedy, I have noted your sarcasm also. And you did fall for this joke, even if you did not fall for the gullwing you wanted details on the Caddy and the man hoping that possibly you could find a connection. Please read all your contributions carefully and come to conclusion.
Enough. As per records and our general knowledge, there is no Gullwing in India now. There is only one roadster 300SL. This is subject to updates when these become available.
I wonder how much time has been wasted on this hoax, I would have preferred to write on the sops article on export of cars or supercharged Merceds or on Julian picture in Nostalgic pics. So that you and others understand what is really required, please refer to Julians post on the 540K. He took the trouble to call Mr. Seth to get info. I have been doing such exercises when required to check and put up some facts. Nothing off the cuff, only verify by self for self to be sure that what is posted is correct. If Speedy were to do this he would not get contradictions/corrections and he would not need to be sarcastic. I realised that there are only a few who really make the effort, do research and that this why I had even tried to contact Julian directly. But there was no response. There is certainly info which I will not share with all on the forum, but only with true enthusiasts and experienced hands in the hobby. Most people are very open when I approach them, though some do have a real attitude problem.

One word for Team BHP. I am glad that I came across this site, it has made me get my act together. I have started sorting and placing all my material properly, a huge task but if not done all will land with the Kabbadiwalla. I have also started to get in touch with people who have tales, photos and history of older times. I came across a workshop with so many picture and so much history, unbelievable. It is for this to be preserved and presented that Team BHP should think of some methodology of weeding out rubbish and keeping history inorder. From the threads I see that Mr. Gir is one who is for this. Perhaps the forum can continue as it is with a special thread for jokers and special threads for genuine enthusiasts where posting is restricted to qualified people. And these posts should have controlled access, so few persons are contributing so that the contributors will atleast know who reads their material. I personally would upgrade the quality of material of my posts, more info and better pictures.
Finally, Speedy, the 190 SL silver with powder coated bumpers was being mechanically restored in a garage next to Mazda Motors in Tardeo. Next time I go there I will ask what happened to it. The scope was only mechanical restoration, no cosmetics. At that time TWO Pagoda tops were also lying there!!

May I also point out another fact? A sufficiently large dent on the roof of a gullwing will also obstruct the doors from opening.

[insideman]

OMG OMG OMG~! is that a 300Sl roadster in the picture next to the pic i showed you??? where is that located? I WANt!!!
besides the point -
I will have to get the full picture of the car. i will do that soon, i will speak to the owner and gt the pictures. i will get the full lisence plate and i will get the cadillac details too. it was not a convertible. i prefer convertibles. this was not a convertble and the owner needs to enter from the right hand side to enter the car as he cant open the doors otherwise. BUT WHERE is that SL300 Roadster, i want!

[DKG]

This reminds me of a tale of a Duesenberg buried upto its hubs lying in some village in Mahbubnagar district. Obviously the story teller thought the next minute I'd be off scouring the countryside looking for this Duesy, but what the heck I'll let some more chickens hatch in it before I pull it out someday!

Then there are tales of a Stutz in pieces, which I am told reliably so is true, but details of where and with whom are understandably withheld.

Then someone swore they saw a V16 and will unveil it at the next vintage show!

So let the Gullwing story join the bunch too.

By the way sometimes its difficult to rubbish such claims. Can anyone believe that for decades I lived on a road and never knew of a car just walking distance from my house? Its only when I saw it that I was dumbstruck that one could live so close to a car and still never ever see it!

So lets cut insideman some slack and play along for a while longer till it becomes evident there's no Gullwing, unless ofcourse our TBHP Sherlocks have already undone the myth.

BTW Harit you mentioned there was only one 300 SL roadster. I was told there were two. One the Gondal car and another in Bombay. Which is true?

Insideman there's a lovely red 300 SL roadster in Gondal in the Maharajah's museum along with dozens of other OMG cars!

[V-16]

Originally Posted by DKG

This reminds me of a tale of....

Then someone swore they saw a V16 and will unveil it at the next vintage show!

Someone saw me? Well im all unveiled et all!!

Originally Posted by V-16

Hey buddy chill. IF you go through this thread you will realize the skepticism around the conspiracy theory of a Gullwing in India. I will choose to call it that as I dont have any proof of its existence (though i may be wrong) or it having existed unless corroborated by pics or otherwise.

Needless to say no pics or whereabouts of the car were divulged, inspite of all
the information promised.


What you will get out of it , well I cant answer that but what we will get out of it...you cant imagine. Its just the knowledge of the legend being alive and no one knowing of it if it is true. That to an enthusiast in not "Nothing" my friend.
Ill be the first one to congratulate you if and when you produce the proof. Waiting for the pics my friend and i hope its true.
We all would bless you for showing us what has been so far an "Urban Legend"
Anyone who has proof please post it. No more fables please.

Well tried Insideman....but your scheme has been detected.
I thought my post would have been clear Insideman.
I for one was skeptical earlier and now am positive that you are hoaxing us.

Please dont insult our intelligence by revealing pics of what we all understand to be of the 300SL roadster and not what you claim it to be.

You begged the owner for a chance to take a pic of the Gullwing and all you take was this pic??
What is it? a clever manipulation which you thought and hoped would throw us off scent?
Any person worth his salt would have got a better picture. This proves that you are trying to pull a hoax but kindly realize its fallen flat on the face......, yours!!

I would like to agree with the Gurus that this is the same 300 Roadster

Let us discuss the two cars and its similarities.
Well Karl has already pointed out some in his last post.
Ill point out one more. See the pics carefully:

The supposed Bombay Gullwing


The Gondal Roadster


I apologize for the poor depiction, and markings i still have to learn a lot from Ram

Please notice the reflection on the boot of both the cars.
The Tin Roof or is it a door is the same in both pics. Only distorted in the second pic (of the roadster) probably because it was taken from another angle.
The center beam running through the tin roof can be seen on both cars (distorted in Gondal car pic).


To further educate our over imaginative friend, who has taken care of posting a picture from such a vantage point that one will not be able to note the differences which were eminent between the Gullwing and the Roadster.
Lets point out the Main Differences Between the two as connected here.

There were some features on the roadster, which were missing from the Gullwing but we will only touch those which have been cleverly (or not so) left out from our friend's post.

1)The fuel tank filler flap was moved to the left rear fender on the outside.

2)The tail light cluster of the Roadster was larger than the Gullwing which included integral reverse lights and a reflector which protruded from the body as can be seen in all the two pics below.

The Gondal Roadster


Roadster Rear light cluster


3)There were separate Ulonite reflectors which were mounted on the Roadsters only which can be seen in the pics . These Ulonite reflectors never came on a Gullwing mounted at this place as shown above.

Due to the USA road laws and norms, from the late 50's all Mercedes-Benz Pontons and the 300SL Roadster were required to have small red reflectors mounted inboard of each tail light and above the rear bumper or above the light cluster as such (Ulonite 105/135 reflectors) . Early on, both the 190SL and the 300SL roadster used the Ulonite No. 135 reflectors which were slightly larger than the Ulonite 105.

The ulonite reflectors



In the Roadster, the rear light cluster is larger because it includes an integrated reverse light as well as a protruding integrated reflector, housed next to the reverse light and this was not available on the Gullwing, which had a smaller cluster.

Lets see again the rear light cluster of a Roadster v/s the Gullwing[/b]

This is cluster on the Roadster and never came on the Gullwing. Also notice the built in reflector in the rear light clustre which protrudes out


The smaller rear light cluster of the Gullwing. Note there is no integrated reflector lens which protrudes out and no Unolite reflectors mounted above the rear lights as shown in the Gondal Roadster and supposed Bombay Gullwng



The Gondal 300 with the proper rear lights with protruding built in reflectors and the Unolite reflectors




Oh My God!! Can It Be True? They are also on the Gullwing sighting by our friend on the exact location of the Gondal car and as supposed to be in other roadsters too.
Here one cannot see the full Rearlight cluster (clever tricks again) but the protruding reflector which is a part of it is seen
BTW I cant see Insideman's face as he claims, ony a halo... Hello!! Can this be GOD??!!


Insideman mentioned his your previous post as to "What I will get out of all this..?" well ill tell you what...Cheap Thrills.
Sorry for the harsh words dude but you asked for it. This is a forum of serious and passionate car lovers, not jesters.

If you take time and go through certain threads, there was one joker (or should i call him an immature young man/kid) who tried this kind of stuff. Needless to say his hoax was discovered, as has yours.

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Some comments from Harit.
May I also point out another fact? A sufficiently large dent on the roof of a gullwing will also obstruct the doors from opening.

My thoughts exactly!! Bet insideman didnt think of that.

Insideman, prove me/us wrong and ill take all my words back with an apology. If you cant, then stop wasting our precious time.
IMHO until there is concrete proof now that the Bombay car is the Gondal car and so I suggest the thread be closed as much precious time has been wasted on it.
Again see the two rear lights side by side. Similar...Naah!!!

[ajmat]

Detectives V-16 and Karlos may stand down.

Excellent work

Thread closed till tempers/ potential badb feelings simmer

[speedy]

finally the thread is opened again. thank you Ajmat. dont worry no bad blood or ill feelings from my end.

Here is the Altamount road 190sl before it got painted to Red.

[DKG]

When was the last time we had a barn find in India? A car that no one new existed and everyone were surprised when it surfaced? That should be an interesting thread by itself.

My guess is there will be atleast a dozen fabulous cars stashed away waiting to be discovered

[karlosdeville]

A very intriguing picture courtesy Harit!

Here is a pic of a Gull wing. Was this car in India? I do not know but finally here is a genuine picture, no need to look for reflectors and reflections on the boot. And it has NOT passed through the photoshop either!
This photo came with some more and I could gather a part of the story. One thing is clear, these are folks from Telco, sometime late 1950's early 1960's and they had senior positions. Perhaps the lady is one of the gents accompanying wife. Someone in Jamshedpur or connections with Jamshedpur should take the trouble to find out who these people were, then the story will be clear.

Harit

[Spitfire]

They are wearing thick coats, are they in India? Jamshedpur dosent really get too cold.

[iraghava]

I'm sure we can put Vcash on the job of asking around who the gentleman in this picture are!

Vikash, you listening??

[drive_factor]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

A very intriguing picture courtesy Harit!

That is Hans Stoer, the first General Manager of Telco.

[V-16]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

A very intriguing picture courtesy Harit!

Very intriguing indeed.
cant see much of the background to make a conclusive statement here but ill try.

Unless someone claims this pic to be of his father or uncle or father in law taking delivery of the first gullwing in India i will present my observations as under;

No the picture is not taken in India. least of all Jamshedpur. Why do I say so? Let me explain.



Start by looking at the four persons in the picture or rather what they are wearing.

See the lady. Looking at her one can safely gather she is a South Indian. See what she wears under the jacket. A crisp South Indian Saree. A Kanjeevaram probably.
If this was India would she be wearing a jacket over a (Kanjeewaram or whatever) saree? No. Much rather a shawl.

See the guy in the background with glasses. See how neatly hes dressed. Looks like hes packed for a trip abroad. How many people do you see in trench coats in India at that time? Not many Im sure. Even today only very few people wear such attire, though i must add, I just love the look it imparts.

Then look at the gent whos standing near the lady. Obviously hes a foreigner. He looks like a person showing the guests around. Hes definately the host. One can see this from his body language. See how he is dressed in a business suit and he looks warm and snug. It must be his domicile or turf. He looks most at ease in the place. Also he does not look so cold. Hes used to the cold here and is probably dressed for it.

Then the main guy whos sitting in the seat. He poses in the manner we do when we visit a car dealership or Disneyland abroad. Dressed but not too formal. Quite casual with a jacket. Hes the main guy here. The lady looks like his wife and the guy another representative from India, most probably placed there for training.

The whole game is given away by the lady who wears a jacket over her Saree. This is typcal of what ladies in this age group would wear abroad. In India they would not be caught dead with a jacket over her expensive saree.
Case closed.
Next please.!!