[PAVAN KADAM]

Guys.... I feel, to a certain extent i will follow the BOOK to the ""T"" , but when it comes to final execution, i might do few things extra, those that are not a little original, VIS., This model did not come with chrome body moulding trims, But i am going to add it.

This model came with only 1 horn grille, but i will add another on the other fender. Else, the car will look more of a Jugaad without these fitments, And i dont call it beating the originality, i would call it, Bettering the Original as per my taste, but not overdoing it. I hope i must have so much of liberty..

And Pankaj, When u getting me the BIRTH CERTIFICATE for this car, it will help me get through with various other aspects of Restoration...

[thebulletboy]

Originally Posted by ajay99

another interesting piece of info which I just got is that there was a 1300 A version also in Europe.!!!

Yes, the 1300A was the Standard version of the VW1300 Delux. This was introduced in the early 70s, in only a few countries, I think.

As before, the 'A' notation was again re-used to denote the Standard version.

Here's a picture of the official VW brochure for the VW1300A. Apologies for the crappy quality. These are pics off the internet :





The last picture shows the 1300A (Standard) placed between the 1200 and the 1300 (Delux).
Pls note the absence of the 1200A in this brochure, since it is a post-68 brochure.

For anyone who's still reading all these posts.. :-) More info on the VW 1300A :

The 1300a VW Beetle Web Page

[PAVAN KADAM]

My initial plan was to seperate the chassis and the body, but the main structural rigidity near the door is very very weak, and on one side, its almost not there.

The metal 16 guage is procured and is being cut.

[mycarhasablower]

16 guage? is the beetle made from a sheet that thick? even my contessa is only 18 guage and the ,marutis are 22.

[ajay99]

Originally Posted by thebulletboy

First off, I would like to request you to kindly restrict the source of information you post here to official VW company literature (at least for the scope of this discussion).

Second off, I would like to completely discredit the third-party manual that you have attached in your previous post.
The extracted page that you have posted is from the 'Scientific Publications Volkswagen Manual'

Attachment 606642

I have had the distinct displeasure of reading this manual and all I can say is that I was apalled by the misinformation and inaccuracies published in this book. To name just a few :

1. This book refers to the 36-hp, 28 PCI carb engine as the 1100cc engine, whereas it was a 1192cc engine. The 1100cc engine was in-fact the 26-hp engine used on very early Beetles (pre-1954 I think)

2. The 28 PCI carb did not come installed on any 40-hp 1200 engine. All 40-hp 1200 engine's came equipped with either the 28 PICT carb or the 28 PICT-1 carb (pls see extract #2 from the VW1200 workshop manual below)


Now, I hope to provide in this post, conclusive and irrefutable evidence vindicating my stand.

First off, I would like to quote my source : The official VW 1200 Workshop manual.

Extract #1 :

Attachment 606643


Extract #2 :

Attachment 606644

This proves that the 40-hp 1200 engine only came equipped with either the 28 PICT or the 28 PICT-1.



Extract #3 :
I found a reference to the 1200A in the very same official VW 1200 Service manual :

Attachment 606645

Pls double-check the above-mentioned extract.
It is a well known fact that the full-synchro gearbox was introduced in delux Beetles in 1961 along with the 40-hp 1200 engine.
The non-synchro gearbox continued to feature on the Standard Beetle for a few years more.

The above extract clearly mentions that the full-synchro gearbox was introduced in 1200A Beetles from Nov 1964.
To me, this looks like irrefutable evidence that the 1200A was in fact the Standard Beetle; coming from the official VW manual, no less.

If anyone is wondering why the 36-hp engine was referred to as the 30-hp engine in the above snippet, it's because 36-hp is the SAE rating and 30-hp is the DIN rating.

Another interesting observation from this snippet, is that the 36-hp engine was mated with the full-synchro gearbox for 2 years on the Standard Beetle as an OE fitment from VW !! i.e 1964 to 66, up until the 40-hp engine was introduced on the Std 1200A.

If you need a copy of this VW 1200 Manual, pls drop me a PM. I would be happy to share. It's too large to upload here.

First of all let me thank you for your offer of the V1200 official workshop manual which I believe is a 1965 edition ,which I already have a copy .
The Delius and Klasing owner service manuals which I have referred to are accepted among VW enthusiasts as the best ones for European beetles, because official (BENTLEY) manuals are more focussed on American beetles
The scientific publication manual may have its share of inaccuracies,but let me point out some facts which have been misrepresented in your previous post.

1.The 28 PCI carburretor did come in 1200 beetles upto 1961 also (see the technical data page from the 1960 model Owners manual page78)

2.I fully agree with you that the 40HP engines had initially the 28 PICT and later the 28 PICT-1 carburretors.
3.hope you will also agree there was no 1200 A notation till 1965, and from August 1960 to 1964 there existed both the 36HP as well as the 40hp1200 .
just provide a VW brochure,or VW manual(even so called third party!!) which mentions 1200 A as the standard version and the debate ends there for ever!!

[PAVAN KADAM]

Originally Posted by mycarhasablower

16 guage? is the beetle made from a sheet that thick? even my contessa is only 18 guage and the ,marutis are 22.

There is no difference between 16 guage and 18 guage, it almost measures to 1mm.

And the weight difference too is marginal... So no worries

[samsag12]

Nice to see another Bug getting restored by the master himself. Thanks a lot Pavan ji for saving this bug. The last update on the body is scary, reminds me of my car's restoration. The denter will have a tough time shaping up with 16 gauge. Although this will definitely turn out to be a looker when complete.

[thebulletboy]

Originally Posted by ajay99

The Delius and Klasing owner service manuals which I have referred to are accepted among VW enthusiasts as the best ones for European beetles,

I think that it's safe to say that when it comes to matters of accuracy, the official manual would be the last word.

Originally Posted by ajay99

because official (BENTLEY) manuals are more focussed on American beetles

as seen above, the Bentley manual has references to the 1200A, which I'm sure you will agree is a Euro-specific model

Originally Posted by ajay99

1.The 28 PCI carburretor did come in 1200 beetles upto 1961 also (see the technical data page from the 1960 model Owners manual page78)

Kindly note my exact words : "The 28 PCI carb did not come installed on any 40-hp 1200 engine". The 28 PCI did come installed on the 36-hp engine which was also 1192cc and used upto 1961.

Originally Posted by ajay99

3.hope you will also agree there was no 1200 A notation till 1965, and from August 1960 to 1964 there existed both the 36HP as well as the 40hp1200 .

The earliest 1200A manual that I have is dated Nov 1964. I have no reliable info on the exact date of introduction of the 'A' notation.

Originally Posted by ajay99

just provide a VW brochure,or VW manual(even so called third party!!) which mentions 1200 A as the standard version and the debate ends there for ever!!

Just provide a VW brochure,or VW manual(Definitely NOT the third party manuals that you have provided above!!) which mentions 1200 A as the Delux version and the debate ends there for ever!!

I believe the extracts furnished in my previous post are conclusive beyond any reasonable doubt. I do not see any comment from you on the extract regarding the 1200A full-synchro gearbox from the manual?

However, I'll take one last shot, and I'll keep it really, really simple :

The 1965 1200A manual that I have, shows that it was powered by the 36-hp engine.
The 1965 1200 manual that I have, shows that it was powered by the 40-hp engine.

If you still wish to conclude that the 1200A was the Delux, thats up to you.

[ajay99]

Hope you will agree that there was standard and deluxe beetles as early as 1954.
the differences being the standard having cable brakes,the Deluxe Hydraulics etc
In 1961 the deluxe beetle acquired the fully synchromesh gearbox,an antiroll bar ,the automatic choke and a larger brake master cylinder.
as far as my info goes,the 1200 A notation was introduced only in 1965 and you are calling it standard basing it on one parameter alone ie,horsepower
Another interesting fact is there was a version called 1200L in 1976 (production ended in Europe facility in1978) which was having all the features of the deluxe.
If you think'people like Haynes,Jim Tyler, Peter Russek all are making the same mistake I have nothing more to say.
Your conclusion that 1200 A is standard version is at best a matter of conjecture

[thebulletboy]

For the record, here are some pages from the 1965 1200 and the 1200A manuals, side by side for comparision.





Given below is a more complete list of the differences that are apparent from the 2 manuals.



Having furnished this information, I shall leave it to you to draw your own conclusions. I think the matter of which model is the Standard version is apparent.

[ajay99]

Originally Posted by thebulletboy

For the record, here are some pages from the 1965 1200 and the 1200A manuals, side by side for comparision.

Attachment 607596
Attachment 607597
Attachment 607598

Given below is a more complete list of the differences that are apparent from the 2 manuals.

Attachment 607599

Having furnished this information, I shall leave it to you to draw your own conclusions. I think the matter of which model is the Standard version is apparent.

The specific 1200 A manual you have shown is a GERMAN manual.
You may well be aware that the 1968 VW (euro) manual which covers 3 models-1200-1300-1500 has in the technical data illustration shows the prescence of horn ring,standard (thick) door pulls and many things which are not there in the 1200.Does that mean the 1200 had all those features?
also to the best of my information there was no separate manuals for standards and deluxe till 1964.
the Manual you have shown as the 1200 could be for a different specs(maybe US) .also the VW European( English) owners manuals were designated as INSTRUCTION MANUAL and SERVICE Card whereas for the same year the US manual was simply OWNERS MANUAL!
Alsoin many years the same manual covered both the sedan and convertible

[thebulletboy]

Originally Posted by ajay99

You may well be aware that the 1968 VW (euro) manual which covers 3 models-1200-1300-1500 has in the technical data illustration shows the prescence of horn ring,standard (thick) door pulls and many things which are not there in the 1200.Does that mean the 1200 had all those features?

Relevance to the 1200A discussion? The post-67 manuals represented multiple models and hence, no reliable information on the Std model can be extracted from them.

Originally Posted by ajay99

also to the best of my information there was no separate manuals for standards and deluxe till 1964.

Agreed. So you will agree that in the 1965 - 67 era, when seperate manuals were printed for the 1200 and 1200A models, the question of a particular manual having inaccuracies for the model that it represents does not arise. This would also apply for the 1965 manuals posted above.

Originally Posted by ajay99

the Manual you have shown as the 1200 could be for a different specs(maybe US) .

Nope. it's Euro spec. It came off a UK car that was purchased new by a friend's grandfather in the UK. The car did not survive, the manual did, and is now in my posession.

Originally Posted by ajay99

also the VW European( English) owners manuals were designated as INSTRUCTION MANUAL and SERVICE Card whereas for the same year the US manual was simply OWNERS MANUAL!

Only true for post-67 manuals, and bears no relevance to the 1965 1200 & 1200A manuals posted above.

[thebulletboy]

Originally Posted by ajay99

just provide a VW brochure,or VW manual(even so called third party!!) which mentions 1200 A as the standard version and the debate ends there for ever!!

Here's a road test of the VW 1200 A, that appeared in the 11/1965 issue of the German magazine 'automobil'.



Here's the English translation of the relevant paragraphs :

The VW 1200 A replaces the previous Standard that, some years ago, had been equipped with hydraulic brakes, then received more trunk space, but still came delivered with a non-synchronized transmission. The 1200 A has the same car body as the new 1200, but without the chrome trim and optional colors.

The motor's development of 30 PS now passes over the fully synchronized four-speed gearbox to the rear wheels, which would find favour, particularly with many young drivers.

Externally, the 1200 A differs from export by the bumper and the thick rubber surrounds, the rims; and internally, through a series of austerity measures. The first mention would be of the non-padded roof rails that emit engine noise into the interior. Since the sounds are composed mainly of high frequencies due to the air-cooled engine , they are particularly disruptive; especially annoying on long trips when you drive with speeds over 95 km / hr.

[BusyBee]

Gentlemen. The discussion was more than thought provoking. I think VW added to the confusion by having slightly different specifications for different markets - a little bit more here and some less. If VW opens its archives, we'll get to know for sure what is 'original' in this case.
Meanwhile thanks to all of you for pulling out all the manuals and interpreting the nuances - will come in handy when we get a Beetle to work on.

[inderpalgill]

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

Nothing new from me, and as always another VW to get back on its roads to glory.

To begin with, this car belongs to a very good family friend KIRAN who lives at Chennai. His tyrst with a Beetle search took us to Hyderabad, and finally my favorite place gifts him a GOOD 1964 Beetle in a fairly decent condition and a fantastic price to begin with.

The moment he finished his buying formalities, it was well understood that i stand to restore this BUG (Deep inside me i was dying to do it) It got loaded and off comes and lands up at my house.

Work in progress to follow.

Dear Pk,
congrats and all the best for next restoration, i can see the small cover plate present in this car-hope you remember it,as we once discussed-the one covering the accelerator linkage in the passenger footwell-only present and required in RHD cars,so you have the sample now ,and can fabricate for your self and for friends who need them(including me)