[Amartya]

Originally Posted by amoghchaphalkar

Got to see the car in flesh and boy it looks ugly. Spacious, roomy etc : all fine. But it is one flimsy car with cheap interiors and I am pretty sure when involved in a shunt the occupants are going to be at a huge risk of sustaining serious injuries.

I agree with you about the car not being the most handsome out there and in fact, I'd written a strident critique of it as well (Link). The low kerb weight was something that bothered me too; however for that concern, GTO raised a question that was quite intriguing(Link): "What (negative) difference does kerb weight make if the car feels otherwise okay, and has decent road manners too? A lighter car is also inherently quicker & more fuel efficient".

Pouring over high school physics books and asking people in the know, led me to try and come up with a conclusive answer (on paper) where I was trying to prove that with some assumptions, the Toyota Etios would have to be less safe than a comparable sedan. That quest led me down a rabbit hole, and I'd share the highlights here:

a. Look at the change in momentum for each car:

m1= Other car
m2 = Etios
u1 = velocity before impact for m1
u2 = velocity before impact for m2
v = velocity of both cars right after impact. (assuming perfectly elastic collision, i.e. the two cars stick together)

Assuming direct central impact, momentum changes are (m1u1 - m1v) for the other car and (-m2u2 - m2v) for the Etios, taking the direction of u1 as positive and assuming that the MOMENTUM of m1(Other car) is greater than that of m2 (Etios). This does not give is us any new information, because the change in momentum is just the impulse and the impulse is the same on the two bodies because both the impact force and the duration during which the force acts are identical for the two bodies.

b. Look at the energy absorbed/dissipated for the two cars.

The net loss of SYSTEM energy is (.5m1u1^2+.5m2u2^2) - (.5(m1+m2)v^2), which is exactly the same as the loss of energy of m1 plus the loss of energy of m2 (just remove the brackets and rearrange the terms), remembering that energy is scalar, so direction does not come into it. So, is the loss of energy of m1(Other car) the same as the energy absorbed by it? No, because m1 may have transferred some of its energy to m2 (Etios).
One really does have to work out the deformation energy of each car, under the varying (with time) impact force. If one has the force-deformation relationship for each car, AND if one knows just how the force varies for the duration of the collision, one can integrate Fdx for each car and calculate the amount of energy absorbed by each, remembering that dx includes the distance by which the point of application of the force "crumples". The force-deformation relationship is just like the stress-strain diagram (if you integrate for the area under the stress-strain diagram, you get what is known as the "specific energy", the energy spent in deforming a unit volume of the material).

Thus, without data on how deformation varies with force, there is no way to estimate the apportioning of the energy absorption of the two cars

Bottomline: Without actual crash tests or Toyota sharing the data from their internal evaluations of structural components, even with multiple assumptions, one cannot conclusively state that the car is unsafe. Trust me, I tried . Hence, in that regard, I'd like to tone down my claim that Toyota has cut corners (in terms of build) to that of skepticism.

Originally Posted by amoghchaphalkar

The 1.2 vs 1.5 engine debate is pretty useless according to me. It's got to be only about torque & power.

Spot on, that is a useless debate, I'll add fuel efficiency to torque and power too.

Originally Posted by RoadTiger

Fit and finish looks Toyota standard

Definitely for the exteriors.

Originally Posted by RoadTiger

4. Black fabric insert in door trim looks better than red, IMHO
5. Seat fabric colours look boring - desperately need good seat covers

I agree with this too, although the black grey combination might look slightly dull, the red looked forced to me. Especially the cheap red disc on the gear lever was in poor taste.

[gshanky]

Originally Posted by Amartya

Thus, without data on how deformation varies with force, there is no way to estimate the apportioning of the energy absorption of the two cars

Bottomline: Without actual crash tests or Toyota sharing the data from their internal evaluations of structural components, even with multiple assumptions, one cannot conclusively state that the car is unsafe. Trust me, I tried . Hence, in that regard, I'd like to tone down my claim that Toyota has cut corners (in terms of build) to that of skepticism.

From a baseline, I would agree with your conclusion. But then I also thought that something like structural reinforcements along with crumple zones could be more important that the weight/force itself of the objects in collision. The reinforcement could be a different metal/alloy with higher strength and hence could contribute to better crashworthiness. With this thought in mind I started looking for some reference and stumbled upon something which could be valid for the crashworthiness discussion.

A couple of excerpts:

The first crashworthiness attributes to consider are vehicle size and weight. Small, light vehicles generally offer less protection than larger, heavier ones. There’s less structure to absorb crash energy, so deaths and injuries are more likely to occur in both single- and multiple-vehicle crashes. If safety is one of your major considerations PASS UP VERY SMALL, LIGHT VEHICLES. This doesn’t mean you have to buy the heaviest vehicle you can find. It wouldn’t necessarily be safer because those weighing more
than about 4,500 pounds afford only small injury risk reductions. At the same time, they increase the injury risk for people riding in other vehicles with which they collide.

Structure and restraints are the main aspects of a vehicle’s design that determine its crashworthiness. Good STRUCTURE means a strong occupant compartment (safety cage), crumple zones to absorb the force of a serious crash, side structure that can manage the force of a striking vehicle or struck object, and a strong roof so it doesn’t collapse in on you in a rollover. Until recently RESTRAINTS included a basic safety belt and frontal airbags. Now there’s more. Crash-activated tensioners reduce belt slack. Force limiters can reduce rib injury risk from the belt itself. The inflation characteristics of advanced frontal airbags are geared to specific crash circumstances. Other airbags protect your head and chest in side impacts. Seats and head restraints are being upgraded to reduce neck injuries in rear crashes. The best way to evaluate a vehicle’s structural design and restraints is in a dynamic test. Based on test performance, a vehicle earns a crashworthiness rating from good to poor.

The report is attached, it has some more relevant details.

[vb-saan]

Some good discussion around.
Valid point that light weight construction cannot really considered as a negative point. If size and weight is a criterion for safety, an Innova should be safer than a Fabia. I remember seeing a Top-Gear comparison a few months back. They crashed a Land Rover, Ford Fiesta hatchback (and one more model which I don’t remember). All of the audience expected the Land Rover to be the safest, but it had the maximum damage. The least damage to the occupant compartment was in the Fiesta (which infact is the new Fiesta expected in India next year, with a boot).

Getting back to the topic. Personally I feel that there is nothing wrong with the Etios, it is build for a market, and aimed at a specific segment. Toyota knows their trade, and has heavy success stories with lesser models in India. Pit it against its direct competitors – Dzire and Manza, and there is nothing much the Etios is lacking.

It will be interesting to see how the Etios Liva is received on its launch. There will be a bigger fight in that space with bigwigs like Polo, Figo, Swift etc. to compete with

[Amartya]

Originally Posted by gshanky

From a baseline, I would agree with your conclusion. But then I also thought that something like structural reinforcements along with crumple zones could be more important that the weight/force itself of the objects in collision. The reinforcement could be a different metal/alloy with higher strength and hence could contribute to better crashworthiness. With this thought in mind I started looking for some reference and stumbled upon something which could be valid for the crashworthiness discussion.
A couple of excerpts:
Now to the report itself:

Thanks for sharing the report with us. Crumple zones is exactly what I too was trying to convey by saying "energy spent in deforming a unit volume of the material". If the crumple zones are designed well for the Etios, they will of course absorb most of the energy from an impact. The report you attached, rightly talks about weight AND size, now the Etios is as big (and bigger then the Dzire) as the competition and can thus, theoretically, have a large enough crumple zone.
Naturally, this is a discussion has other variables, for example kind of collision. For example, the car can bounce off after impact, or it can be "crunched" etc.

Please note, that I am not trying to defend the Etios. I remain skeptical of it's build but just no longer claiming that Toyota has cut corners, mainly due to the lack of information. If a person evaluating the Etios as a purchase thinks that Toyota wouldn't cut corners on safety, that perfectly fine for them. It's high time that crash test regulations become the norm in India as well.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by gshanky

Since we are discounting looks, for the same cost if TML and MS can make better interiors, why can't Toyota?. Agreed that the engine, gearbox combination could be better than Manza but I am not sure it would be that much expensive than Manza. So I can derive that Toyota is looking for better margins just by combining some old (re-engineered) components. May be it is nothing wrong, but I would like to be a demanding customer who wants Toyota to put the best foot forward.

Toyota does have a brand advantage and that's because of the reputation they have built over the years. And I agree with you that brand advantage definitely translates into being able to sell at a bigger margin. But, people who buy Toyota are normally performance and durability oriented in Indian market. And Toyota has played it smart by designing a vehicle that serves its target customer's purpose ( ie, to provide a powerful, spacious and comfortable car ). Person who are more concerned about the looks or poshness will anyway be buying an American or European car.

Originally Posted by gshanky

I would like to request you to stop being the representative of "average consumer". Lets start talking for ourselves first and then see if it suits others.

For me, I would definitely go for Etios ( Eventhough, I love the Altis Diesel more, but cannot go for that because I cannot afford that ). To be very honest, I cannot think of a car for personal use out of the Japanese technology world, because I have seen the advantages of it throughout my life.

It started with the

"Made in Japan" - Maruti 800 ( which my father ) bought for Rs. 60,000 when it was first released, used it for 5 years, and then sold it for Rs. 63,000/- No major complaints whatsoever.

Then came the Maruti Zen bought in 1999. I still use it. Passed over 1,25,000 kms of heavy abuse. Current Status --> Never opened the gear box or Engine. Release the clutch, and you feel it's new.

Then came the Esteem - 2001 MPFI. Even though, you cannot compare that to have the same reliability as the Zen, it was a great performer thanks to that excellent engine under the hood. Inspite of the esteem being not as reliable as the Zen, the service cost done in Maruti Service Masters for 1 Lakh kms just costed me Rs. 9k odd after performing the following add changes.

Timing Belt Replacement
Tensioner Replacement
Wheel Bearing Replacement ( 1 wheel )
Synthetic oil - Mobil 1 ( @ 50% Discount )
AC Belt replacement

Now, I have seen several people use cars of many other brands. And I can safely say that no other Brand comes better than or even close to the Maruti reliability than Toyota. ( Qualis and Innova Experience ). It's because these cars are designed for being serviced which even a close friend of mine in Maruti agrees to. This is what he said to me - "You hire a person and in one day, you can teach him to service a Toyota vehicle efficiently". According to him, the toughest cars to service are FIAT and the FORD, because they are not designed to be serviced.

The person who told these words is a highly recognized Maruti expert and has got direct training from Maruti. And he uses a Honda car that he has never taken to service center in the last 5 years of use. He does the service himself.

Originally Posted by gshanky

I am not sure about you, but I recall that Indica's center console is to accommodate the LHD and RHD markets and thereby saving money to make additional console. Toyota followed the same concept. And Toyota has been fined in USA for LYING.

Good Points. Now, I understand why manufacturers go for the center console, inspite of no one liking it.

Originally Posted by gshanky

You are joking right? Toyota was never known as a premium brand. They do have a separate brand called Lexus to sell premium cars. Toyota wants to come across as premium in India just by jacking up the prices and also the indian market seems to follow. But in my mind I am crystal clear that "Toyota is not a premium brand". If it were, then what is Mercedes? Super premium?

It's relative with respect to geography ( based on what's already popular ) and people's spending capacity. In India, by most people, it's considered premium.

Originally Posted by gshanky

Toyota quality took an international beating this year. So, I would like you to slow down on beating the quality drum. I don't know if pay scales in Toyota and Maruti vary much and even if it did I don't agree that they relate to quality. Quality is related to the process and every company that has mature products has their own quality control process. In Toyota's favor till now they have been building cars that have been built elsewhere and so they would more or less have to follow the previously matured quality process (similar to dubbing/remaking a movie if you will). In this case Etios seems to be a car made in and for India. So, they may have to create new quality processes specific to Etios. We'll have to wait and see how that really turn out. Though I might be willing to give benefit of doubt to Toyota in terms of a quality product I am not satisfied about the package other than fundamentals.

I'm not the kind who would rate a company's quality based on a couple of incidents that happened recently. I would rather look at the 77 years of quality cars that they made, and the kind of effort they put into Etios before actually releasing it.

Originally Posted by gshanky

I only mentioned what was written. Never did I say people will drive in the 4500 rpm band more than x% of time. That is something you are speculating. I only mentioned the buzzy engine to say that it is a old gen engine unlike the competition which all seem to have new gen engine.

You seem to conveniently forget all the good things told about the engine in the review, and take only the negative point for the sake of it. A person who is not technically well equipped might even take it for granted that the engine is inferior. So, just wanted to clear the air here.

Originally Posted by gshanky

And I don't think they deserve the higher price because they don't charge the high price internationally. And in case of India, they are being opportunistic. Though that is not a mistake, consumers justifying high price for Toyota would be a mistake IMO.

Brand is not built in day. There is a lot of hard work involved in that. I don't find any issues when a brand takes more margin for the brand building it has done over the years as long as they don't compromise on what they stand for - in Toyota's case - Space, Comfort and Performance. People who needs durability and performance, will go for Toyota. People who needs space and value for money go for the TATA. People who need tank like build quality will go for FIAT or VW maybe. There is a space for everyone.

Originally Posted by gshanky

For what it is worth, ANHC is at a segment above Etios, Manza, Dzire and Logan. So let's try to stick to the respective segment of discussion. So, I assume you mean that the Logan engine is un-refined because it is noisy at higher rpms? . That sounds a bit familiar to me. Here is an excerpt from Tbhp test drive about logan

So, leaving the diesel engine out, the 1.6 L petrol seems to be at par with Etios. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

I have driven a Logan, and if Etios power delivery feels like Baleno, then the drive quality is nowhere near in the case of Logan, I would say inspite of it having a good low end torque. Please refer Mahindra-Renault Logan 1.6 Petrol Review - Lo(gan) & Behold! | Expert Review/Road-Test - CarWale

Quotes from the review

The 90 horses that charge out from the exhaust are not very spirited, to say the least. Its not wild like the Fiesta neither is it refined and relaxed like the Aveo’s 1.6L motor. This 1600 cee cee engine likes to take life easy and does not like being flogged. But work is work and I did have to open the taps violently to come up with a naught to hundred time. Aimless and confused when given the beans, the 1.6L motor helps the Logan reach a hundred clicks in 13.8 seconds while when trying to max it out, we saw 170 on the speedo, the accurate reading of which translated to 155.9kmph on our vehicle testing equipment. But the nature of this engine is not to deliver scorching performance but to deliver modest performance in conjunction with decent fuel efficiency, and keeping the current crop of 1600cc engines doing the rounds, the Logan’s engine is not all that bad.

The 121Nm of torque is spread evenly in between the lower and mid range which makes driving around town a breeze. Offered from as low as 2000 rpm, the availability of the torque makes sure that the gear shift is kept to the minimum. Thank god for that because the shift quality is not really all that pleasing. The gears do slot in with a crisp action, but the quality is no where in the league of the Fiesta or even the Swift for that matter!

So, while it's a good engine, it cannot be put in the "performance class" engines. You want to go on a sprint, Logan engine won't do it. Etios will ( combined with the slick gear shift, and good 0-100 record, combined with the good low end torque, and being lighter )

Originally Posted by gshanky

I completely agree. But shouldn't a car maker continuously strive to give better products? Qualis was an old model that Toyota used to set foot in indian market. After more than a decade they are still using the same strategy to bringing old stuff from other markets for India, which to me does not seem very attractive.

Agree with you here ( Even though, I believe that Toyota's old products are still good enough in reliability, refineness, durability, serviceability than many contemporary designs )

Originally Posted by gshanky

I do agree that in fundamentals Etios is definitely better than Manza. But not so much in regards to Dzire and Logan.

I would say that the Etios is a better buy than the Manza and Logan definitely. With regards to Dzire, both Maruti and Toyota have many things in common like lesser maintenance, easy serviceability, refinement, reliability. But, the brand badge gives Etios the advantage. While the service network gives Maruti the advantage. The one thing that might tilt the market in Etios' favour is that it looks like a sedan while the other looks like a Hatch with a boot.

With the hatch version of Etios, Toyota might have to face tough competition though because Maruti has a strong case there with the wide variety of models they offer. Plus. we have the likes of Micra, Polo, i10 & i20 as well.

And I got to see the Etios live yesterday at Kochi showroom. These are some of my observations.

1) Comfortable seating ( even though the seats look thin ). Adequate back support
2) Very good glove box.
3) Plastic quality looked acceptable for me ( if not good )
4) Single wiper - better than what I expected. The wipe area is pretty good. Probably the 2 arms for the wiper helps it get a bigger wipe.
5) Center console looks like a toy. But, I was able to see the speedo in the back of my vision, while looking straight. Not sure, how practical that would be on a real drive on the road though.
6) The funny steering wheel is only available with the top-end. That's a disappointment. :(
7) Red interiors doesn't look classy or sporty. Black and grey might be better as it atleast gives a decent look. Seat covers a must on this car.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by airbender

Ofcourse it is. Toyota is going the maruti way of giving old products as new in india. I hope they learn from ford's figo.

This is a joke, right? You call the Figo a new product? Apart from the bonnet and head lamps, it's the very same, last generation European Fiesta hatch. When Ford stopped the production of the last gen Fiesta in EU, it became Figo in India.
The success of any car depends on the fact that how well it satisfies the target audience. And I think that the Etios does that pretty well. It has space, mileage and brand. These are the three things that most of the buyers of this segment look for.

[ani_meher]

@sidindica: Thanks for the pics, Really showed some previously unknown traits, like engine sound dampner on the lid and perforated boot lid. I wonder how there is no beading on the windows. Figo has a good rubber lining on the windows to sound proof it.

[gshanky]

@amalji:

Seems like we could agree to disagree. I believe I have made my point that I am not satisfied with Etios for the reason that I do not believe this is one of the better effort from Toyota. Never mind the looks, I find their concept to be dis-respectful and disregarding to the indian customer.

I was especially highlighting the "not so good" parts of Etios and its engine as mentioned in the review. That is not to say I have conveniently forgetting its advantages. This type of debating by getting personal is not healthy. I am only highlighting the "not so good" things to highlight that Etios is not a great product. It could be an OK product and thus does not deserve any hyped up statements like "the engine is one league above the rest".

Toyota is just another car company and it is not the sacred cow of automobile industry because they have been found guilty and punished by a court of law. And if they manufactured good cars before, that is good. But if they make a bad car now, it is indeed awful. Let's try to be objective and impartial and treat cars and brand for what they are.

And again, Toyota is not a premium brand. It has nothing to do with geography. It is about knowledge. The story about "frog on the well thinking that the well is the ocean" comes to mind. If many indian customers think Toyota is a premium brand then they are all wrong considering the options we have today.

About the review of Logan, I took the excerpt from tbhp. And if another reviewer bashed Etios, would you agree with that point of view? In my opinion the Logan petrol engine is comparable with Etios petrol engine since both of these engines vibrate/get buzzy at higher rpms. But Etios engine seems better with higher performance in normal rpm band.

[ACM]

Been observing the duel for a while now, my take: (Every one is of course entitled to their own view.)

My take is not in favour of the Etios:

1) Toyota is not a Premium Brand, it's just positioned as such in India and sadly the people here are buying the logic. If a brand is not premium globally then it can't be one in India, What then would be the Lexus?
Toyota does stand for a certain level of reliablity but not for being premium.

2) Etios to me seems more comparable to the Dzire rather than the Manza and I for one would choose the Manza over the Dzire and anyday. It simply is much better value and a segment larger, its rear bench space and features are closer to the Corolla rather than the Etios. (Though am not here stating that it is better than the Corolla just the best value for the money we pay for it.)

3) Larger and heavier seems to be safer upto a limit even as per the report on this page. And the Etios does suffer from in this department. Crumple zone design cannot beat the laws of physics and if two cars are of indentical size then the heavier one can be assumed to be better as both are likely to have used similar measure in the crumple zone. - Just the simple way in which I view it.

4) The centre console dials if better for safety and driving concentration should have been first brought into the Corolla, Innova and Camry rather than in the Etios? It's just marketing @#$% and nothing more. Infact I would go on to say that it is an attempt at fooling us Indias with a logic that they themselves do not belive in and they should be taken to court for it.

5) Yet i guess it is a better vehicle than the Dzire at not much more and is better priced overall, better looking, with possily better long term reliablity and build quality and so is a good alternative to buy if one is contemplating the Dzire. Compared to the Manza nah, it is just a segment lower even if priced identically.

Etios will sell, why not even the Dzire is a hot seller and offers what it promises. Both are overall quite similar - would pick Etios over the Dzire.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by gshanky

@amalji:

Seems like we could agree to disagree. I believe I have made my point that I am not satisfied with Etios for the reason that I do not believe this is one of the better effort from Toyota. Never mind the looks, I find their concept to be dis-respectful and disregarding to the indian customer.

Yes, we could agree to disagree. For me, Toyota needs a pat on the back for designing this car for the masses. When no other foreign car manufacturer had the courage to enter the volume segment for sedan cars, the no: 1 car manufacturer did and I appreciate them for that.

And then did that without compromising on performance, mileage, space, comfort, durability and utility. All they did was to ignore the looks ( interior as well as exterior ). The segment doesn't demand looks. The volume sedan segment needs a practical car and that's just what Toyota gave the Indian customer. If Toyota creates a sedan car which can sell 70k to 1lakh per year, it's not being disrespectful to the Indians, but is understanding what Indians give priority for. We Indians can be proud that we give priority to practicality than the looks

Originally Posted by gshanky

I was especially highlighting the "not so good" parts of Etios and its engine as mentioned in the review. That is not to say I have conveniently forgetting its advantages. This type of debating by getting personal is not healthy. I am only highlighting the "not so good" things to highlight that Etios is not a great product. It could be an OK product and thus does not deserve any hyped up statements like "the engine is one league above the rest".

I consider the Baleno engine a league above Dzire. Specs and driveabilty of Etios looks similar to Baleno. I'll say more on it, after trying it out myself next week.

And I didn't mean to get personal. If you felt so, my sincere apologies.

Originally Posted by gshanky

Toyota is just another car company and it is not the sacred cow of automobile industry because they have been found guilty and punished by a court of law. And if they manufactured good cars before, that is good. But if they make a bad car now, it is indeed awful. Let's try to be objective and impartial and treat cars and brand for what they are.

I'm not the kind of person who rates a brand ( or even a person by the last job/mistake they did ). At the same time, I accept the fact you are not such a kind. We can gladly agree to disagree here.

Originally Posted by gshanky

And again, Toyota is not a premium brand. It has nothing to do with geography. It is about knowledge. The story about "frog on the well thinking that the well is the ocean" comes to mind. If many indian customers think Toyota is a premium brand then they are all wrong considering the options we have today.

There is a breed called resident Indians, and if they adore a brand, it's not because they are foolish. But, because of their previous experience with that brand. If you want to say that Indians were foolish to buy qualis, innova and consider that premium, it's your lack of understanding of standard of living of an average Indian. Now, take the case where we - resident Indians were foolish for the first year. We simply cannot continue to be foolish for several years, rt? If we adore a brand, it's because we consider that a value proposition. We cannot afford to spend a fortune on a car and then spend another fortune to maintain a car. We also don't have the luxury of throwing away a car after a few years. We are earning Indian salary, and buying a car forms a considerable share of the family budget. And when we buy a car, we expect that car to last without creating hassles or high maintenance cost. And that's why Japanese and Korean cars sell in such high numbers in India.

For eg:- Hyundai is considered one of the better brands in India. Go to middle east and u will see that it's considered a cheap brand there. For people who own a Merc or BMW, it will feel like a joke. But, that's not the case with the common man. The common man adores brand - Toyota and that's not because they are a frog inside a pond, but because the money spent is that much more important and don't want to make a mistake there.

If the word premium is hurting you, I can take it back and instead say that Toyota is an adored brand in India.

Originally Posted by gshanky

About the review of Logan, I took the excerpt from tbhp. And if another reviewer bashed Etios, would you agree with that point of view? In my opinion the Logan petrol engine is comparable with Etios petrol engine since both of these engines vibrate/get buzzy at higher rpms. But Etios engine seems better with higher performance in normal rpm band.

Show me one Indian website or auto magazine which wrote bad about the Etios engine. I'll reply more on this after driving the Etios next week. And with regards to Logan, I've driven it and I prefer my esteem to the Logan as far as driving thrill is concerned! And no, I'm not a person who take the rpms to the limit. I might take it till 4000, if I feel like sprinting. Else, I shift at 2,500

[adimicra]

There are some comments in this thread which puts the engine in the Etios in the 'performance' class - though not sure what that means but I find it pretty funny

Agreed, the engine has good drive-ability but what else?
The real fun of a petrol motor for enthusiasts is the way it races to the redline and the refinement.

Reading GTO's review and several other reviews, it is pretty clear that the Etios has a old gen engine with good drive-ability but it is neither rev-happy and nor does it compare favorably in refinement with other new gen engines like the Suzuki K-Series.

I have a Santro which offers excellent drievability but when I floor the pedal on open roads, it gets really buzzy in the higher rpms which is annoying for me and the other passengers (I need to increase the volume of the music system very high to offset it).
The I10 Kappa engine does not have as good driveability as the Santro's old IRDE motor, but then the question is why does Hyundai replace it and put the new Kappa motor in the I10? It is because it has better refinement, better peak power and much more smooth revving - which are the characteristics of a good petrol engine.
Torque at low rpms and drive-ability - diesel rules anytime.
I am just trying to draw an analogy here to put my point forward.

Just a simple question to GTO or anyone else who has driven the Etios and the Swift/DZire?manza (petrol) - which engine would you prefer?

I think in another post GTO has replied saying that he would prefer to drive a DZire than an Etios as the former has better driving pleasure. Does it help to settle the debate?

Originally Posted by amalji

Y

And then did that without compromising on performance, mileage, space, comfort, durability and utility. All they did was to ignore the looks ( interior as well as exterior ).

How can you be so sure? Have you driven or rather seen the car?
You seem to be taking everything as per Toyota's face value?

How can you know about comfort, durability,mileage so soon?

Really beats me

[Klub Class]

Originally Posted by amalji

According to him, the toughest cars to service are FIAT and the FORD, because they are not designed to be serviced.

Pardon me, I didn't understand this statement.

In the first line you've mentioned that Fiat & Ford cars are tougher to be serviced. But then, you're saying that they are not designed to be serviced!

I'm very much eager to know the reason that made your friend to make such a comment. On what grounds does your friend say that Fiat & Ford cars are not designed to be serviced? And if that statement was true, then I would really expect the non-Fiat & non-Ford users to stop cribbing about the A.S.S

Yes, I'm really confused. Please explain.

PS: Going through your posts in this thread, I feel that you're about to book at Toyota Etios. And yes, congratulations.

Who knows, may be yours will be the first Toyota Etios of our forum.

[spacescreamer]

Nicely done GTO.
And how did u managed to get snazzy pics of Etios ? looking better than what it was when i saw the preview thread.

Still this one remains short of the perfect launch car Toyota cud have managed in this segment. only thing i can infer is that Toyota mst have got the safety test done absolutely to satisfaction. Only a guess though.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by adimicra

There are some comments in this thread which puts the engine in the Etios in the 'performance' class - though not sure what that means but I find it pretty funny

Agreed, the engine has good drive-ability but what else?
The real fun of a petrol motor for enthusiasts is the way it races to the redline and the refinement.

If that was the case, only the red-line people would have bought a Petrol Engine. You can have much of that fun under 4000 rpm as well. I drive my Esteem and by following this driving style can confidently overtake most cars on road. So, driving @ a max of 4000 rpms doesn't take the fun out of driving a Petrol car.

Inspite of having all those low end torque for Diesel engine, a Petrol Engine can over take a diesel engine with 130 or 140% its torque from traffic, because the torque delivery is not as flat in Diesel. Nor is the vehicle light. Refinement doesn't necessarily mean having to drive at above 4500 rpm. Now, with regards to how buzzy it is, I haven't experienced it. I hope to drive it within a week, and will give a review on it.

And after reading GTOs review, it's a better engine for most parts except when it is red-lined. You can have more than enough fun on a Petrol car without having to pump it past 4500 rpm.

Originally Posted by adimicra

I have a Santro which offers excellent drievability but when I floor the pedal on open roads, it gets really buzzy in the higher rpms which is annoying for me and the other passengers (I need to increase the volume of the music system very high to offset it).

I don't think, Etios is going to ride like the Santro. If the power delivery is similar to Baleno ( even if it's below 4500rpm ), it's gonna be a lot of fun driving the Etios. No comparison with a Santro here.

Originally Posted by adimicra

Just a simple question to GTO or anyone else who has driven the Etios and the Swift/DZire?manza (petrol) - which engine would you prefer?

I think in another post GTO has replied saying that he would prefer to drive a DZire than an Etios as the former has better driving pleasure. Does it help to settle the debate?

Because a person like GTO would definitely want to red line.
For most other people in the segment, they are gonna drive between 1000 to 4000 rpm. And the engine out performs all other engines in that rpm band.

Originally Posted by adimicra

How can you be so sure? Have you driven or rather seen the car?
You seem to be taking everything as per Toyota's face value?

How can you know about comfort, durability,mileage so soon?

Really beats me

1) Comfort from GTO's review and all the other reviews, I saw ( NDTV, Autocar )
2) Durability - Taking face value here
3) Mileage - An ARAI mileage that closely matches Maruti's best Petrol Engine - 1.2L K-Series, that too for a 1.5L engine. Plus the fact that ARAI mileage is more applicable for highway driving. On city drives, the car with higher low end torque should perform better compared to the other car on the same driving condition.

And yes, I have seen the car. The car is roomy, has adequate quality interiors, offers very good back support and looks certainly like a sedan.

Originally Posted by Klub Class

Pardon me, I didn't understand this statement.

In the first line you've mentioned that Fiat & Ford cars are tougher to be serviced. But then, you're saying that they are not designed to be serviced!

I'm very much eager to know the reason that made your friend to make such a comment. On what grounds does your friend say that Fiat & Ford cars are not designed to be serviced? And if that statement was true, then I would really expect the non-Fiat & non-Ford users to stop cribbing about the A.S.S

Yes, I'm really confused. Please explain.

What he meant was that the it's difficult to unmount/remount a part on a FIAT/Ford. Another example is for replacing/fixing something the speedometer, you might end up unmounting a lot a parts.

Originally Posted by Klub Class

PS: Going through your posts in this thread, I feel that you're about to book at Toyota Etios. And yes, congratulations.

Who knows, may be yours will be the first Toyota Etios of our forum.

hehehe. Someone in my family might book it. And yes, certainly will add a review here.

[adimicra]

Originally Posted by amalji

If that was the case, only the red-line people would have bought a Petrol Engine. You can have much of that fun under 4000 rpm as well. I drive my Esteem and by following this driving style can confidently overtake most cars on road. So, driving @ a max of 4000 rpms doesn't take the fun out of driving a Petrol car. And after reading GTOs review, it's a better engine for most parts except when it is red-lined. You can have more than enough fun on a Petrol car without having to pump it past 4500 rpm.

For me, the fun in driving a petrol car is when you rev near the redline. If you read the specs, all petrol cars including Etios develops peak power at higher rpms. For example, Etios develops peak power at 5500 rpm. So, if the car gets buzzy at 4500 rpm+, how is one going to use the 90 odd horses?
Yes, driveability is important but that alone can't put Etios as a 'performance' sedan.

Originally Posted by amalji

I don't think, Etios is going to ride like the Santro. If the power delivery is similar to Baleno ( even if it's below 4500rpm ), it's gonna be a lot of fun driving the Etios. No comparison with a Santro here.

When did I compare Etios with Santro? I was comparing Santro and I10 engines.The only similarity between Etios and Santro is that both have very good driveability and gets buzzy at high rpms. But the similarity ends there.

Originally Posted by amalji

Because a person like GTO would definitely want to red line. For most other people in the segment, they are gonna drive between 1000 to 4000 rpm. And the engine out performs all other engines in that rpm band.

For most people in the segment, The K Series of the Dzire may be more than sufficient. Does that mean I should be happy with that? I am not representing the buyers in the segment. I am representing myself and giving my opinions.

Originally Posted by amalji

1) Comfort from GTO's review and all the other reviews, I saw ( NDTV, Autocar )
2) Durability - Taking face value here
3) Mileage - An ARAI mileage that closely matches Maruti's best Petrol Engine - 1.2L K-Series, that too for a 1.5L engine. Plus the fact that ARAI mileage is more applicable for highway driving. On city drives, the car with higher low end torque should perform better compared to the other car on the same driving condition.

That is a wrong assumption. Have given reasons for my statement earlier.

Originally Posted by amalji

And yes, I have seen the car. The car is roomy, has adequate quality interiors, offers very good back support and looks certainly like a sedan.

Good that you have seen.I haven't seen mine but the pics from several sources tells me that this is an ugly car from the outside and more on the inside. Let us know how you feel about the drive.
But looks like you are sold on the Etios