[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Is there a differential locking mechanism on Jimny -Rear/ Front?

No, these are open differentials.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

If not, how does the Torque go to the wheel on a firm surface? Won't everything go to the one which is slipping?

No, in an open differential, both wheels get exactly same torque. Only in a locked differential the torque will go the wheel that has traction. That is why many offroad vehicles give the option to lock the differential. For example, Gurkha gives separate front and rear lock for the differential for this purpose.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

And that's exactly what these brakes are doing, stopping the rotation of the wheels, which is slipping.

But the image on the brochure is showing that if left wheel no traction, the right is slipping. How is that even possible?

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Or is everyone wrong??

Who is everyone? I am saying the brochure is wrong.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

The Jimny also gets Brake Limited Slip Differential on both axles. Once this system detects loss of grip on an individual wheel, it applies brakes on that wheel and redistributes torque to the opposite wheel.

This is basically Traction Control system, differential is still open. It doesn't re-distribute anything. Both sides get equal torque in this system.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Samurai

No, in an open differential, both wheels get exactly same torque

Pay attention to - the "amount of Torque" does it not explain what's happening?

A common misconception with open differentials is that when one wheel is lifted, 100 per cent of the torque is sent to it. This is not true, however the amount of torque sent to the wheel with traction is very low because the amount of torque required to spin a wheel is also low. Remember, both wheels always receive equal torque, but if one has no resistance (eg. if it’s in the air), the amount of torque sent to the drive axle as a result is very low..

Disadvantages:
When one wheel has poor traction, this drastically limits the amount of power the vehicle can put down. Because the torque distribution is always 50/50, if one wheel cannot put down much power, the other will receive an equally low amount of torque

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/eng...table-for-you/

Who is everyone? I am saying the brochure is wrong.

Not everyone can be wrong - Suzuki Japan/ India, better you clarify when you meet someone from the manufacturer

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

Maybe comparing apples to oranges but how do these TCS setups compare to VAG's VAQ and XDS systems?
.
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A 4x4 newbie here; apologies if the question is a silly one!

Question is not silly, with so many types of 4WD system, it can get quite confusing to even seasoned veterans.

But I always revert to first principles when it comes to understanding these systems.

If the system is able to send different amount of torque to left and right wheels, then IT IS a differential based control of some kind, either LSD or full lock. But if a system sends same amount of torque to left and right wheels under all conditions, then it is technically not a LSD. Yes, they might call it Brake LSD, or BLD, etc., but it is a variant of traction control system, which uses braking to induce load from the slipping wheel.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

This is the basics, can we stay on the subject?

when the left wheel is slipping, the right wheel won't get Torque - Correct? so what's wrong with the brochure??

Brochure isn't talking about torque. It is showing that if left has no traction, right wheel is slipping/spinning. That never happens. If left wheel has no traction, left wheel will slip and right wheel won't turn. Then the image shows them applying brake to the right wheel, which won't be turning in the first place. Then they say left wheel gains traction, which again won't happen.

What really happens is, brake gets applied to left wheel, which induces load to the engine, thus generating the torque required to turn the right wheel which still has traction. The left wheel doesn't gain any traction until it moves out of that place and lands on firmer ground.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

It's the other way, the right is slipping so the torque is not going to the left and hence no or less traction on the left.

I respectfully disagree. The wheel without traction is the one that slips. Traction is a function of friction between the tyre and road surface. Load is a function of traction. Torque is a function of load. So, no traction means no torque generated by engine. What little torque is generated will go equally to both wheels. The one without traction will spin, the other won't turn at all.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Not everyone can be wrong - Suzuki Japan/ India, better you clarify when you meet someone from the manufacturer

No problem sir. It is just an error in the documentation. If an expert from Suzuki reads my post, they will quickly fix the documentation. I am not expecting anything more. As a Suzuki 4WD SUV owner for 16 years, I have great respect for Suzuki.

[cogWheel]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Where did they pickup this incorrect explanation? So I checked the global Suzuki page of Jimny. It has the same incorrect explanation. So we can't really blame the Indian brochure maker.

Attachment 2468865

In general, the language used in the manual is convoluted and confusing. I wonder if it is a case of poor translation from Japanese?!

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Samurai

If an expert from Suzuki reads my post, they will quickly fix the documentation. I am not expecting anything more. A

Please check my edited post above and then comment. I was not able to explain properly, I think what I have mentioned above makes complete sense on what's exactly happening.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Please check my edited post above and then comment. I was not able to explain properly, I think what I have mentioned above makes complete sense on what's exactly happening.

You changed your post when I was done replying...

Now you are quoting content from carthrottle that is saying the same thing I said in my original post. Since we are in agreement, we can move on.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I was looking at the Jimny brochure to understand the 4WD system better. I was disappointed to see it has the brake chewing traction control system instead of LSD. They incorrectly call it Brake LSD, even though both differentials are fully open all the time. I suppose it is the marketing department decision to call it that.

Attachment 2468866

Then I looked at the image and I was very confused. When the left wheel loses traction, why does the right wheel slip? It is the wheel that lost traction that spins, the other will remain stationary. Then they are applying brake to the right wheel, and somehow left wheel gains traction?

Samuraisan, the image is correct you are interpreting it wrong but not your fault because the choice of words in the image could have been better so as to not confuse, its probably lost in translation from Japanese to English.

In the image the the front right wheel slips/spins as it is shown as off the road and so there is no torque sent to front left wheel (for which they say no traction) which is on the road. Traction control brakes the slipping/spinning front right wheel and front left wheel gets some torque (they say gain traction) to move forward. Similarly for the rear axle.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Where did they pickup this incorrect explanation? So I checked the global Suzuki page of Jimny. It has the same incorrect explanation. So we can't really blame the Indian brochure maker.

Attachment 2468865

The meaning probably lost in translation from Japanese to English which screwed up the explanation. Quite possible :-)

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Samurai

You changed your post when I was done replying...

Now you are quoting content from carthrottle that is saying the same thing I said in my original post. Since we are in agreement, we can move on.

No, I corrected it one minute before you replied, Sir.

I don't think we are on the same page yet; let someone else pitch in.

I understand what's happening, and I believe you will get a chance to sort this out shortly.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Sankar

In the image the the front right wheel slips/spins as it is shown as off the road and so there is no torque sent to front left wheel (for which they say no traction) which is on the road. Traction control brakes the slipping/spinning front right wheel and front left wheel gets some torque (they say gain traction) to move forward. Similarly for the rear axle.

Sankar, let's just consider the front for clarity sake.



It clearly says left wheel has no traction. Why will the right wheel slip/spin?

If the right wheel is spinning, that means right wheel doesn't have traction. Why show the left wheel as not having traction?

Finally, how can left wheel gain traction, if brake is applied to right wheel? Clearly the document writer is not aware of 4x4 operation. Traction is the friction between the tyre and ground, it can't be changed from inside the car by pressing some control.

I am not saying Suzuki engineers are confused. I am just saying the documentation is wrong. It can be easily corrected.

Once the spinning of wheel is detected, the system will apply brake to stop the spin and induce load to the engine. That results in sending more torque to each wheels, and the wheel with traction will turn and push the car out of the slippery place.

Showing left wheel as having no traction, and then right wheel as spinning, indicates both wheels are not having traction. That too for both axles. That means you are stuck for good, and you need to be winched out.

Originally Posted by purohitanuj

It does not end there. In the new Nexa ad, the driver is seen putting 2H from 4H to climb the stones.

Do note between 2nd second to 4th second.

I guess that is just an video editing error, and the folks who approved it didn't understand the flaw.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Sankar, let's just consider the front for clarity sake.

Attachment 2468887

It clearly says left wheel has no traction. Why will the right wheel slip/spin?

Samuraisan the image is better read from right to left direction i.e., Right wheel is spinning/slipping (due to no traction) and as a result the Left wheel is not getting torque (the image incorrectly says No traction).

Originally Posted by Samurai

If the right wheel is spinning, that means right wheel doesn't have traction. Why show the left wheel as not having traction?

Exactly! They shouldn't have used the words No Traction for the left wheel. Probably the Japanese version of the image says something which did not translate well into English.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Finally, how can left wheel gain traction, if brake is applied to right wheel?

When they said left wheel gain traction they probably meant the left wheel gained tractive force or torque when the right wheel was braked.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Clearly the document writer is not aware of 4x4 operation. Traction is the friction between the tyre and ground, it can't be changed from inside the car by pressing some control.

I am not saying Suzuki engineers are confused. I am just saying the documentation is wrong. It can be easily corrected.

Once the spinning of wheel is detected, the system will apply brake to stop the spin and induce load to the engine. That results in sending more torque to each wheels, and the wheel with traction will turn and push the car out of the slippery place.

Showing left wheel as having no traction, and then right wheel as spinning, indicates both wheels are not having traction. That too for both axles. That means you are stuck for good, and you need to be winched out.

You are right the words describing the image needs to be corrected and fixed. The image is not wrong as is. The meaning is lost in the usage of wrong words to describe whats going on in the image.

I tried to fix by deleting the offending words, and its now half fixed. The graphics alone would do a better job.

Right wheel slips > Left wheel not moving (the X in the picture)
Right wheel brake > Left wheel starts moving (the white curved arrow in the picture).

[SUVolens]

I’m no engineer, but the simplest explanation seems to be this - the wheels in the puddle are free rotating, thus squandering energy sent via the engine by path of least resistance. If the brakes clamp onto these offending wheels, this energy in whatever quantity, can then prove useful by being distributed to the wheels on solid ground (in effect, the energy available originally to these wheels are increased), thus enabling extraction. That’s in effect how a BLD works.
And from all available video evidences, it works pretty effectively too, albeit with less subtlety then a mechanical locker, since the process takes a bit longer to translate. Hence, in a similar situation, a genuine LSD will be seen hauling itself out linearly, whereas the Jimny and other BLD vehicles, will have a somewhat jerky progress. Better than being stuck still, I’d venture.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Sankar

I tried to fix by deleting the offending words, and its now half fixed. The graphics alone would do a better job.

Right wheel slips > Left wheel not moving (the X in the picture)
Right wheel brake > Left wheel starts moving (the white curved arrow in the picture).

That's very clever. You salvaged it as much as possible, without redrawing the image.

[SUVolens]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

Maybe comparing apples to oranges but how do these TCS setups compare to VAG's VAQ and XDS systems?

I’m not sure if this’ll answer your question effectively, but Traction Control System isn’t the same thing as BLD (in the Jimny, both systems coexist btw).

A TCS (the kind on VAG and most modern cars) is a system where sensors detect a loss of grip in a driven wheel (driven or powered is an operative word here). For example, in a situation where a car has entered a corner carrying more than required speed and the inner wheel is breaking contact with the ground. In that event, sensors and microprocessors will detect the anomaly and immediately cut power to the particular wheel with more available traction, to avoid total loss of control. This can be sensed in most situations by a palpable ‘lift off’ in power even with no corresponding action by the driver via the gas pedal or brakes. This cut in power is usually enough to rein the car back in a more predictable trajectory around the said corner.

A BLD, to start with, comes into play at much lower speeds - almost at crawl, usually. And, it doesn’t so much ‘reduce power’ as much as attempts to totally obliterate it, by activating the brake callipers. This means, energy to the slipping wheel/s is blocked, and energy being fluid (physics inclined folk, please don’t bash my perfunctory knowledge), is channelled to the corresponding wheel in the same axle, multiplying its force and giving it a chance to act Rescue Ranger. It’s a clever workaround to the more expensive and mechanically heavy traditional locker. VAG’s Haldex was a genius specimen of the BLD system, found in the now defunct Yeti. I’m not sure the Jimny’s BLD is as sophisticated a system, but it’s effective for its purpose, given the overall light build of the vehicle.

In summary, if I got my theory right, the TCS and BLD actually work in opposite ways - TCS cutting power to wheels with traction to prevent overload and BLD cutting power to wheels without traction, to avoid wastage. Did I get that right?

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by SUVolens

In summary, if I got my theory right, the TCS and BLD actually work in opposite ways - TCS cutting power to wheels with traction to prevent overload and BLD cutting power to wheels without traction, to avoid wastage. Did I get that right?

Load =Torque.

Now think about how BLD works, remember it's an open differential.

[quickdraw]

Originally Posted by jackofsome

I absolutely agree, however the gentleman i quoted, said that it does not make much sense to own a litre class in India and hence my comment just to explore a whole lot more of that superbike.

Enough off topic for me.

Just a couple of questions on your Jimny ownership though:

1. Did you check out the Yokohama in 215s or BF Goodrich as well while putting the Contis.
2. Is there any sort of rattle from the tailgate while on bad patches? Coz i remember the Ecosport rear door rattling even with such stellar build.

1. BFG was out of the question for me because I've observed a lot of road noise from them in my friends cars, and NVH, Safety & Comfort was the primary use case for me. I was actually keen to get AX6 model of CrossContact but it was only available in 235 width for 15 inch. The Geolander AT is an excellent tire and reviewed well for longevity and off road prowess, but again my use case negated the need. They looked hella cool with white lettering (only available for 235 width)

2. No rattle from rear, and I was conscious to not get 5 tires and left the 195 on the spare wheel since I didn't want to add any weight to the rear door.